End of the Line for Babcock?

[WordsOfWisdom]

The Leafs have one more chance to get it right. One more chance to exorcize playoff demons that have haunted the franchise for several years now. If not, I think Babcock will be fired after a game 7 loss against Boston. 

 

Look, the core group of this team isn't leaving. The Leafs have an outstanding forward group, a decent defence, and the best goalie you can get. By all accounts, they're UNDER-PERFORMING if they lose again in round one, especially if they lose a series they were leading 3-2. Another collapse will not be tolerated.

 

In a parity-driven league, the Leafs have enough to win a Stanley Cup with the roster they have. They're no worse than any other team that remains in these playoffs. They're not "building" any more. They're "built". The window of opportunity is open, and this is the time to win. It now comes down to coaching. It comes down to the little things like ice time for star players, who plays with who, etc. 

 

 

[yave1964]

Preseason I picked the Leafs to beat the Blues for the cup. Of course like everyone else I changed my mind a dozen times along the way but the reason I took the Leafs is the reason you listed above. PLUS Babs.

 

  I have a hard time blaming him, I think he is a tremendous coach, one of the top two or three in the game today and dont see what can be brought in that would be any better/ O'Keefe? I understand the ties between he and your GM so that is a maybe but IDK, a hungry young vet team with a rookie coach doesn't sound right to me. Babs has years remaining at a crazy salary as well. I think at the least he has another year, possibly two. And dont write this series off yet. Game 7 in two days. And personaly if you lose in 7 hard fought bloody games the one I would point a finger at is Kadri first, second and third.

 

 I said when Babs left my Wings and went to Toronto that if he didn't win he would be hated, if he broke the Leafs long cup drought his face would be on the money up there. Still think that. It was gutsy for him to take over the Leafs, it takes a lot of faith in yourself to put yourself out there like that as a coach who could have taken a safer post in Buffalo or stayed in Detroit even.

[mojo1917]

@WordsOfWisdom

 

This series is a big reason why I dislike the current playoff format. 

For me these two teams are the 3 and 4 seeds in the conference, behind, Tampa and Washington...they shouldn't be playing until at least the conference semi-finals.

 

The Bruins don't suck and are "built" as well, the games have been well played and entertaining, and that's coming from a guy with no dog in the fight, 3 of the games I've watched could have gone either way, (game six I didn't watch) but this has been a great match up, it's just happening too early.

There is a ton of great talent on the Leafs, they are exciting and should continue to improve, there is no way in hell I fire Babs for losing to a top 4 in the conference team. 

[WordsOfWisdom]

8 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

@WordsOfWisdom

 

This series is a big reason why I dislike the current playoff format. 

For me these two teams are the 3 and 4 seeds in the conference, behind, Tampa and Washington...they shouldn't be playing until at least the conference semi-finals.

 

The Bruins don't suck and are "built" as well, the games have been well played and entertaining, and that's coming from a guy with no dog in the fight, 3 of the games I've watched could have gone either way, (game six I didn't watch) but this has been a great match up, it's just happening too early.

There is a ton of great talent on the Leafs, they are exciting and should continue to improve, there is no way in hell I fire Babs for losing to a top 4 in the conference team. 

 

I agree with what you said, but at some point failure can no longer be acceptable, regardless of whether it's first or second round. We can't keep excusing annual failures to roughly equally matched teams. At some point you just have to break through and make it work. If everyone else can do it,  the Leafs can do it. No more excuses for this Leafs team.

 

Boston is better than the Leafs every year because Boston fans demand better, and they get it. It's time Toronto fans expected more out of their sports teams than mediocrity. This mentality of just being slightly over .500 and making the playoffs being "good enough" has to stop. This team needs to be great for a change. There are no more excuses for this team. The expectation is Stanley Cup or bust. 

Edited April 22, 2019 by WordsOfWisdom

[FD19372]

I would upgrade that defense in the off-season, and add more toughness and skill to that unit. No way I would fire Babcock at this point. It is no shame to lose to Boston. 

[OccamsRazor]

I can't see Babcock taking the fall if you guys get bounced tonight.

 

I can see him getting one more season.

[hobie]

TO's major talents are in the 24 to 21 years of age area, a lot of teams wouldn't or shouldn't win cups with such a young core. 

 

Upgrading anything on TO will be impossible without seriously weakening current strengths because of the Cap.

 

It all comes down to the right mix of players and the right coach and there's no easy to follow guide to build a cup winner or TB would be winning it all, now. 

[Podein25]

Lol, leave it to the Leafs to fire Babcock if they lose with that Defense. I have to think Kyle Dubas is smarter than that. He certainly looks smarter.

[hobie]

Ya, I think TO needs to upgrade the d to TB standards? Or Philly?

[WordsOfWisdom]

20 hours ago, FD19372 said:

I would upgrade that defense in the off-season, and add more toughness and skill to that unit. No way I would fire Babcock at this point. It is no shame to lose to Boston. 

 

No but if you're up 3-2 in the series and you lose two straight games, that qualifies as another collapse.   

 

[WordsOfWisdom]

2 hours ago, hobie said:

TO's major talents are in the 24 to 21 years of age area, a lot of teams wouldn't or shouldn't win cups with such a young core. 

 

Upgrading anything on TO will be impossible without seriously weakening current strengths because of the Cap.

 

It all comes down to the right mix of players and the right coach and there's no easy to follow guide to build a cup winner or TB would be winning it all, now. 

 

You're back!!! 

 

[hobie]

Babs played Hy on the top line with Mitch and JT, Hy had been injured in the 4th game so he was essentially playing on one leg for the last 3 games. Babs said he'd ask Hy how he felt and Hy would always say better, Babs couldn't tell that a player he coached for 3 years wasn't that player?

 

Gardiner played at about 70% due to his back, Babs wouldn't play Marin, Holl or Rosen who we need to assume were at 100%.

 

Babs wouldn't shorten the bench in the 7th game even tho TO was down 2 goals?

 

I think the phrase "full of himself" might have been coined for people like Babs, he believes in himself so totally that mundane matters like playing injured players or the score doesn't sway his game plan.

[Holymakinaw]

LOL.  We were dead last in the league just THREE years ago, and just had back-to-back 100+ point seasons with a bunch of 21 and 22 year olds.  

Babcock is not going anywhere.

[WordsOfWisdom]

On 5/1/2019 at 9:45 PM, Holymakinaw said:

LOL.  We were dead last in the league just THREE years ago, and just had back-to-back 100+ point seasons with a bunch of 21 and 22 year olds.  

Babcock is not going anywhere.

 

That may be true, but the Leafs aren't breaking through the first round like other lower seeded teams (Columbus, Carolina, Colorado, Dallas, etc.....) do on an annual basis and there needs to be something done about it. I believe the Leafs are not being coached to the same level that those other teams are. Those other teams are getting the most out of their group of players. The Leafs by all accounts, aren't.

 

It's not a lack of playoff experience any more. It's not about age. It's about Babcock not playing his star players enough. He has all the big guns on this roster and simply chooses not to deploy them. 

 

 

[Holymakinaw]

Uh........but it IS a lack of playoff experience.  Y'know how many times Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Johnsson, Kapanen, Rielly, Hyman, Brown, Dermott, Gauthier, Moore, Zaitsev have each made it the post-season in their careers?   

 

Two for some, and three times for some.  Even Tavares and Kadri have only done it four times each.

 

That's 12-14 guys with hardly any playoff experience, on this team.  Thankfully, they all now have at least these past three seasons under their belts.

 

Relax, and show some patience. 

 

Jesus.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Holymakinaw

[Holymakinaw]

Looks like Dubas doesn't plan on firing the Coach that was hired just 4 years ago.  Imagine that.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Holymakinaw

[hobie]

8 hours ago, Holymakinaw said:

Uh........but it IS a lack of playoff experience.  Y'know how many times Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Johnsson, Kapanen, Rielly, Hyman, Brown, Dermott, Gauthier, Moore, Zaitsev have each made it the post-season in their careers?   

 

Two for some, and three times for some.  Even Tavares and Kadri have only done it four times each.

 

That's 12-14 guys with hardly any playoff experience, on this team.  Thankfully, they all now have at least these past three seasons under their belts.

 

Relax, and show some patience. 

 

Jesus.

 

Experience, I believe pretty well every player on the Leafs has playoff experience up the ying yang. NHL experience maybe not but playoff experience nonetheless. Moore has been returned to the A to play in the playoffs and I assume it's so he can gain even more playoff experience.

 

When Chicago won their first Cup of the 3 recent Cups they had lots of players without a boat load of experience, experience is a cop out. Babs made a lot of unexplainable coaching decisions and it seemed that he was the person most in need of playoff experience.

[WordsOfWisdom]

10 hours ago, Holymakinaw said:

Uh........but it IS a lack of playoff experience.  Y'know how many times Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Johnsson, Kapanen, Rielly, Hyman, Brown, Dermott, Gauthier, Moore, Zaitsev have each made it the post-season in their careers?   

 

But these issues were addressed with the acquisitions of Hainsey, Marleau, Tavares, Muzzin, etc....  The Leafs went out and specifically acquired guys who had that experience.

 

10 hours ago, Holymakinaw said:

Relax, and show some patience. 

 

How long did it take Crosby & Co. to win their first Stanley Cup in Pittsburgh? How about Toews, Kane and Co. in Chicago?

 

You don't have to be age 30 to be good enough to win. The best players in the league are young now. Ovechkin was scoring 50 goals from day 1 in the NHL. Crosby had 120 points in his first or second season. The path of progression is such that Marner, Matthews, Rielly, etc... are peaking now. 

 

This team needs a breakthrough playoff run. I don't even care if they win the Cup. Just go deep. Get to a Cup final. Get to a conference final. Make an extended playoff run and whatever happens happens. This team hasn't won a playoff round in 20 years!  Patience is gone.

 

[WordsOfWisdom]

4 hours ago, Holymakinaw said:

Looks like Dubas doesn't plan on firing the Coach that was hired just 4 years ago.  Imagine that.

 

He may/may not fire him this off-season, but I think Babcock needs to be put on the hot seat. He had a LOT of years in Detroit of early playoff exits after that Detroit team slowly got picked apart. That team hasn't won since ~2008? The jury is out on whether or not Babcock can coach a team to a Stanley Cup or whether it was Detroit's cast of star players that got them there in spite of Babcock.

 

[WordsOfWisdom]

On 4/23/2019 at 4:48 PM, Podein25 said:

Lol, leave it to the Leafs to fire Babcock if they lose with that Defense. I have to think Kyle Dubas is smarter than that. He certainly looks smarter.

 

It looks like he just wears the frames but no glasses. It's like that guy in the movie Wolf of Wall Street. He's going for the "nerd look" but doesn't actually need glasses. 

 

 

[Holymakinaw]

8 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

This team needs a breakthrough playoff run. I don't even care if they win the Cup. Just go deep. Get to a Cup final. Get to a conference final. Make an extended playoff run and whatever happens happens. This team hasn't won a playoff round in 20 years!  Patience is gone.

 

 

Well, Matthews is 21.  Marner is 22.  Nylander is 23.  Rielly just turned 25.  Kapanen is 22.  Johnsson is 24.  Dermott is 22.

 

So even though you want to fire the Coach and your "patience is gone"(largely because of Leaf teams from before this group was even around)........sorry, but that's just silly.  They are KIDS still.  It takes time.

 

You will have to wait.

 

Thankfully, the team realizes that, and are keeping the ship pointed in the right direction and are NOT listening to you.

[WordsOfWisdom]

7 hours ago, Holymakinaw said:

Well, Matthews is 21.  Marner is 22.  Nylander is 23.  Rielly just turned 25.  Kapanen is 22.  Johnsson is 24.  Dermott is 22.

 

I realize that. And they were surrounded by Marleau (39), Muzzin (30), Hainsey (38), Gardiner (28), Kadri (28), Tavares (28), etc........   

 

Age is NOT the problem here!

 

7 hours ago, Holymakinaw said:

So even though you want to fire the Coach and your "patience is gone"(largely because of Leaf teams from before this group was even around)........sorry, but that's just silly.  They are KIDS still.  It takes time.

 

Yes. The clock never stops ticking. You don't get to exchange old players with new ones and get a reset on the clock. That's not how it works. It's still 20 years since this franchise went beyond the first round and over 50 years since its last Cup win. There is no more patience being granted by Toronto fans. It's deliver results now or face the torches and pitchforks. 

 

7 hours ago, Holymakinaw said:

Thankfully, the team realizes that, and are keeping the ship pointed in the right direction and are NOT listening to you.

 

What direction is neutral exactly?  The team hasn't moved anywhere in three years. They lost to Washington, lost to Boston, and just lost to Boston again... all in the first round. They finished 3rd in the division with 100 points, good for 7th overall in the NHL, and then blew a 3-2 series lead.  

 

If this team actually DID listen to me, they would get some decent results for a change.   

[Holymakinaw]

3 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

I realize that. And they were surrounded by Marleau (39), Muzzin (30), Hainsey (38), Gardiner (28), Kadri (28), Tavares (28), etc........   

 

Age is NOT the problem here!

 

 

Yes. The clock never stops ticking. You don't get to exchange old players with new ones and get a reset on the clock. That's not how it works. It's still 20 years since this franchise went beyond the first round and over 50 years since its last Cup win. There is no more patience being granted by Toronto fans. It's deliver results now or face the torches and pitchforks. 

 

 

What direction is neutral exactly?  The team hasn't moved anywhere in three years. They lost to Washington, lost to Boston, and just lost to Boston again... all in the first round. They finished 3rd in the division with 100 points, good for 7th overall in the NHL, and then blew a 3-2 series lead.  

 

If this team actually DID listen to me, they would get some decent results for a change.   

 

LOL.  Wrong!  You need to wait for the core guys to mature!!  Other than maybe Tavares, the "old guys" you mentioned are NOT our best players.......far from it.  Marner and Matthews and Rielly ARE, and your lack of patience is typical of much of a very pathetic portion of Leaf Nation.

 

WAIT for the rebuild to bear it's fruit and stop moaning about firing the coach........it's DUMB.  

 

And no, they should NOT listen to you.  There is a reason they are professional hockey people, making loads of money and with loads of experience, and you are an anonymous poster on a hockey forum with 12 members. 

 

[Holymakinaw]

Was that harsh?  It's so........hard for me to tell.  

[WordsOfWisdom]

8 hours ago, Holymakinaw said:

LOL.  Wrong!  You need to wait for the core guys to mature!!  Other than maybe Tavares, the "old guys" you mentioned are NOT our best players.......far from it.  Marner and Matthews and Rielly ARE, and your lack of patience is typical of much of a very pathetic portion of Leaf Nation.

 

So you feel that Leafs fans are being unreasonable in wanting to see a winning team? 

 

If the Boston Bruins went 10 years of missing the playoffs, fans in Boston would find a new sport to follow. The arena would be empty. I guess it's a different story if you're a younger hockey fan, since younger fans haven't been following the team for as long.

 

Also, the presence of the salary cap means that patience is no longer possible. Every team has to win within the contract window of their core group of players.... or they never will. You can't acquire the players once they reach peak value any more without losing something else. You have to draft them, sign them to long term contracts while they have no value, and HOPE they become star players so that you can win a few Cups before their next contract comes due and the team gets torn apart. Once the player has value, you can't re-sign them any more. 

 

In a sport like MLB (with a luxury tax), the Leafs could retain their entire core group of players and add the missing pieces around it, gradually building it into a champion. That's how it should be in my opinion. In the NHL however, the Leafs now face the prospect of losing Mitch Marner this off-season (who will go straight to a team within the division like Detroit or Buffalo) and that will diminish the Leafs, bolster the opposition, and make a playoff miss in 2020 a very real possibility. 

 

I'm forecasting that the Leafs will regress to being a 90 point team and will miss the playoffs due to the loss of several key players this off-season. They blew their chance at a Cup this year. 

 

 

8 hours ago, Holymakinaw said:

WAIT for the rebuild to bear it's fruit and stop moaning about firing the coach........it's DUMB. 

 

I'm merely asking the question. 

 

8 hours ago, Holymakinaw said:

And no, they should NOT listen to you.  There is a reason they are professional hockey people, making loads of money and with loads of experience, and you are an anonymous poster on a hockey forum with 12 members.

 

I never applied for the job, so you can't say I ever got turned down!  

 

7 hours ago, Holymakinaw said:

Was that harsh?  It's so........hard for me to tell.  

Don't mind me. The usual end of season frustration. Carolina can win another Cup and celebrate in their parking lot. It'll be great.