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On 5/8/2019 at 5:11 PM, murraycraven said:

 

What has been underwhelming so far in terms of trades from Fletcher?   

 

 

ummm... absolutely everything?

 

On 5/8/2019 at 5:11 PM, murraycraven said:

Hextall was the person that gave Jake a bloated contract even though he was a RFA coming off a career year?  Simmer?  Well, nobody was paying anything worthwhile for Simmer and his production in Nash pretty much solidifies that argument.  Stollie?   The kid is a marginal NHL backup that has knees made of glass and you had a chance to bring in a vet that was close to Hart. 

 

He wasn't an RFA, he signed the deal at the beginning of the last year of his contract.  Hextall gave him market value.  His production has matched his salary.  It hasn't exceeded it.  He hasn't proven to be a "steal" the way Simmonds was or Couturier currently is.  I'm not going to litigate the Voracek signing again, but there was and still is nothing wrong with his contract.  Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to review some of the contracts that have been signed since and look at some of the production of some of those players and if that isn't enough, keep your eyes on what some of the RFAs are going to get this summer.

 

The issue with the Simmonds trade isn't about what he did or didn't get for Simmonds, the issue was that we were told the lack of such big moves was the reason the team wasn't doing well and the reason Hextall was fired.  So they brought in Fletcher to essentially not make any big moves.  I don't blame Fletcher for that.  I commend him.  It does make me very angry with Holmgren and Scott for being morons and either lying to us about why they really fired Hextall or lying to themselves.  I'm not sure which frustrates me more because if it's the former, then it wasn't a hockey decision and that's just stupid... and if it's the latter then dear god, they're just plan stupid and Fletcher's lack of action backs that up.     

 

I agree that Fletcher's trading abilities are up in the air.  What I do blame Fletcher for on deadline day is all the moves he choked on and the ripple effects that's going to cause him trying to improve the team this summer.  He also passed on calls for Elliott, Gudas and Raffl.  We'll never know what those returns might have been.  

 

I also am ticked at Stolie for Talbot because A) He made the move at a completely stupid time when the team had a bunch of road games in a short stretch and with Elliott still hurt, it essentially left Hart without a backup and forced him to play more games in a row than he should have and (STOP ME IF YOU'VE HEARD THIS BEFORE) HE GOT HURT.   Not only did he get hurt, but he started playing poorly.  And that's almost worse.

 

Beyond not realizing that visas were going to be a problem that would tie up Talbot, the other thing that has me annoyed is that Talbot is a UFA starting goalie. Paying him to backup Hart this year will cost the team more money than they should be spending on a backup.  Stolie would likely have been a UFA by season's end as well, but with a far less proven track record was likely to resign (for his hometown team mind you) for significantly less.   It's of course a risk because of injury history.  So if Fletcher is just willing to pay a premium on relative durability in a backup, then that's his call.  I happen to think having a coach with half a brain as to how and when to start whom goes a long way in that department.   Talbot being "close to Hart" means nothing to me and it shouldn't mean much to anyone IMHO.  I like the idea of another young guy, hungry as hell and itching for a job playing behind Hart and keeping him on his toes.  I also REALLY liked how similar Hart and Stolarz were in their styles.  Hart's better and Stolie is bigger (aka bigger 5-hole) but they both are positioning based, play tracking goalies who get into position so as to not force themselves to make a lot of difficult saves.  I think having that kind of continuity would have been VERY good for the defense.  

 

Those are the reasons I'd have greatly preferred to have Stolie.  I understand the thinking behind Talbot.  It would have been nice to see him play a few more times.  He was rusty, I understand, but he straight up did NOT look good in any of his games as a Flyer.

 

My main issues with Fletcher aren't that his deals are dumb or bad (not like Homer) but that they're kind of pointless and seem to be for show.  They further anger me in regards to Holmgren and Scott because Fletcher's reticence to change much about what Hextall had been building (aside from the BIG piece Hextall had some psychological block on--the coach) tells me that in Fletcher's estimation, the product on the ice wasn't the problem and couldn't be addressed mid-season.  Which again says Hextall was essentially right and that Homer and Scott either lied and fired him for stupid non-hockey related reasons or Homer and Scott are just stupid and don't know hockey... neither option is a quality I want in the people running my hockey team.   

 

Despite being mostly okay, Fletcher's lack of creativity however is a concern for me because an old school non-creative GM like this is going to miss out on some big opportunities for this team.  

 

 

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The offense has been stagnant and the defense porous.  I think Subban is a better player at hsi position then Voracek is. Since you have a comodity like Hart, you need to support him at all costs. Subban would solidify the D and help bringing up the younger guys who are knocking on the door

 

We have seen that the product on the ice now isnt good enough at either end to stop goalies from being hung out to dry

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4 hours ago, CoachX said:

Subban would solidify the D and help bringing up the younger guys who are knocking on the door

You've watched Subban play recently ?

 

He's not the guy from 3 years ago who was in the conversation for top 5 defensmen in the league.

He was terrible vs Dallas, Steve Eminger bad...remember him ? he sucked.

His play has fallen off a cliff, I think what you remember and the player he is today aren't the same. 

 

EDIT: I don't think Voracek is an addition by subtraction candidate. Further I think that notion is silly. Voracek isn't "a problem" let alone "the problem" 

Let's do additon by addition. Sign a guy, Throw all the money at Karlsson- all. of. it. That guy controls the game, that guy can mentor even if he isn't interested in being a mentor the team will be better because he's controlling the game 22-26 minutes a night.  Erik Karlsson with his mullet is the guy, Subban is guy. 

Edited by mojo1917
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No, i dont watch hockey. I just like to pull opinions outta my arse

 

Seriously, though, Vorack isnt the same player he was five years ago either. And his playoff performance was worse than Subban. My point is that PK is better at his position than Jake is. And he would help make this team better by solidifying the defense , a bigger priority

Edited by CoachX
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1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

You've watched Subban play recently ?

 

He's not the guy from 3 years ago who was in the conversation for top 5 defensmen in the league.

He was terrible vs Dallas, Steve Eminger bad...remember him ? he sucked.

His play has fallen off a cliff, I think what you remember and the player he is today aren't the same. 

 

EDIT: I don't think Voracek is an addition by subtraction candidate. Further I think that notion is silly. Voracek isn't "a problem" let alone "the problem" 

Let's do additon by addition. Sign a guy, Throw all the money at Karlsson- all. of. it. That guy controls the game, that guy can mentor even if he isn't interested in being a mentor the team will be better because he's controlling the game 22-26 minutes a night.  Erik Karlsson with his mullet is the guy, Subban is guy. 

 

I agree if i have to decide to spend the money 9 mill on Subban or 10-11 mill on Karlsson???

 

I go with the money on EK. He is the guy who can help the most....i mean 22 year old Sanheim put up a more productive season than PK did last year.

 

So i have to slide the money to EK for he can show the kids the way and would be a nice right hand shot to slap next to Ivan.

 

And Jake could still be on the team wear as PK you would have to trade Jake for.

 

And well if i have to trade Jake for a D man i want to trade him for a better defenseman if i am doing it.

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On 5/15/2019 at 1:01 PM, CoachX said:

If the flyers want to sign EK and keep Jake, you wont hear me complain. My position all along is making sure the D in front of Hart is the best it can be

 

I'm with you, but I don't think we need to go as far as Karlsson.  

I'm not saying I don't want him and that it wouldn't be amazing.  I'm A) just not a huge fan of putting that much money for that long into any one player, and B) Think we have enough pieces, that they can be extremely successful with a Myers or Trouba or someone.  

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41 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

I'm with you, but I don't think we need to go as far as Karlsson.

 

I am concerned with Karlsson and his wonky groin...it seems to always be a thing with him now he is at the age where he is starting to break down and it comes a lot from not taking care of yourself so i'm not sure how important to have a player of his skill level if he is always hurt in key games....like the playoffs.

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25 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I am concerned with Karlsson and his wonky groin...it seems to always be a thing with him now he is at the age where he is starting to break down and it comes a lot from not taking care of yourself so i'm not sure how important to have a player of his skill level if he is always hurt in key games....like the playoffs.

 

Yeah, that's a major factor too.

I'm not sure he'll be worth the $10million plus for term regardless ,but he's definitely not worth the $10 million if he's going to be hurt.

 

I hope Fletcher is wise enough to agree.  Although his history with the likes of Suter (still a good player I'll grant) and Parise don't encourage me.  Homer's history with such things encourages me even less.  

 

He may be an answer, but I'm not sure it's to a question this team is asking.  

 

 

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7 hours ago, King Knut said:

I hope Fletcher is wise enough to agree. 

 

 

 

Hhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...is Trouba really that good???

 

Ghost AND the 11th??? Anyone here have a say so??

 

I know @Podein25 follows the Jets what say you??

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12 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

Ghost AND the 11th??? Anyone here have a say so??

NO.

 

I don't even need to ask @Podein25

who does that ? what moron trades a player like ghost, who is on a great contract, and a first pick for a player who is a little better *  

the asterisk indicates that's giving Trouba the benefit of the doubt. 

 

NO.

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1 minute ago, mojo1917 said:

NO.

 

I don't even need to ask @Podein25

who does that ? what moron trades a player like ghost, who is on a great contract, and a first pick for a player who is a little better *  

the asterisk indicates that's giving Trouba the benefit of the doubt. 

 

NO.

 

Is he just a little better??

 

I'm asking because i have seen many claimed (the other day on NHL network's noon show their talking heads) that guys like him don't become available and teams should jump to inquire about him and then in their defense they say he is coming off a 50 point season.

 

I hear that and i'm like wait a minute he is just 25 and JUST scored 50 points finally??? Why is that such a big deal??

 

Ghost put up 65 when he was 25 and i have seen many want to trade him just because he has struggled a little on a struggling team.

 

Trouba is much bigger like 6-3. So i was trying to figure out why this guy is so good and our guy needs to go.

 

It seems like some value the grass on the other side of the fence more.

 

And i agree Ghost is on a good deal and who knows may rebound with this new staff and a more confident team around him.

 

Before this past year Trouba's best season was 33 points. Ghost just put up more than that on a "down year".

 

It just doesn't make sense on why some just want to give Ghost away.

 

Hak and the gang it seems to me have neutered him and what he use to be by trying to change him. 

 

Just comparing the stats:

 

Trouba 408 games 42 goals 137 assist 179 points +37 

 

Ghost 298 games 46 goals 141 assists 187 points -25

 

So besides the +/- Ghost has the better stats. So it seems if the Jets were to move Ghost for Trouba the Flyers should be getting the 1st round pick back. 

 

I am one of the few who want to hold onto Ghost to see what can be from him.

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21 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I am concerned with Karlsson and his wonky groin...it seems to always be a thing with him now he is at the age where he is starting to break down and it comes a lot from not taking care of yourself so i'm not sure how important to have a player of his skill level if he is always hurt in key games....like the playoffs.

I have been hollering to sign Karlsson pretty loudly - this is a concern of mine also. 

will he ever be healthy again ?  

If he is, imo he's worth every penny. I know it's getting to be a couple of years now but he is still the guy that dragged a terrible Ottawa Senators team to the conference finals. He played 27 minutes a night and for all those minutes in that series the Pens didn't do diddly/poo.

He is a special player.

 

However, "is he breaking down ?"is a legitimate question to ask.  

That's the gamble

 

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3 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

That's the gamble

 

It certainly seems like a gamble. And i agree when on his game he can be a game changer.

 

He would be a great fit here though plug him next to Ivan and i think you have your #1 D pair.

 

He is the type that could maybe get the best out of Ivan.

 

And guys with his skill set don't come available often for sure. I'm glad i don't have to make that type of call.

 

However he is the type of aggressive move Homer and above would like.

 

And if he is playing for you he isn't playing for the Islanders or one of your other rivals.

 

Something to ponder. I would rather sign him than trade for Trouba.

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13 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

 

Hhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...is Trouba really that good???

 

Ghost AND the 11th??? Anyone here have a say so??

 

I know @Podein25 follows the Jets what say you??

 

I really hate to say it because I love Ghost to pieces and I think playing under Hakstol has possibly ruined him... BUT...

 

as as I said maybe two years ago or more now, if they’re not gonna let Ghost be Ghost, then you might as well trade him and get some value.  

 

With the emergence of Sanheim and the positivity that Philadelphia Myers looks to be headed towards, AND Morin still potentially as the 7th, if consider this. 

 

Is Trouba THAT good? I don’t know, but he seems like he might be. 

 

I worry in part because Ghost could be key to the new PP as he was when the PP was elite in his first seasons.  But it looks like Sanheim could be very good there too.  

 

Trouba is playing Provo type minutes.  And he gets a lot of assists, not goals... which between Provo, Sanheim, Myers and Gudas I think we have enough shooting D men. 

 

Trouba also shoots right, which (if Morin stays on track this year) could make 2020 UFA Gudas more expendable (he had a great season and may never be more valuable). 

 

Honestly, it’s the 11th that gives me pause.  

 

I don’t know enough about how deep this year’s Draft is, but Trouba’s a true first pairing D man who’s 25 and literally just coming into his game.  Putting him and Provo out there together could be ridiculous.  

 

 

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26 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Is he just a little better??

 

I'm asking because i have seen many claimed (the other day on NHL network's noon show their talking heads) that guys like him don't become available and teams should jump to inquire about him and then in their defense they say he is coming off a 50 point season.

 

I hear that and i'm like wait a minute he is just 25 and JUST scored 50 points finally??? Why is that such a big deal??

 

Ghost put up 65 when he was 25 and i have seen many want to trade him just because he has struggled a little on a struggling team.

 

Trouba is much bigger like 6-3. So i was trying to figure out why this guy is so good and our guy needs to go.

 

It seems like some value the grass on the other side of the fence more.

 

And i agree Ghost is on a good deal and who knows may rebound with this new staff and a more confident team around him.

 

Before this past year Trouba's best season was 33 points. Ghost just put up more than that on a "down year".

 

It just doesn't make sense on why some just want to give Ghost away.

 

Hak and the gang it seems to me have neutered him and what he use to be by trying to change him. 

 

Just comparing the stats:

 

Trouba 408 games 42 goals 137 assist 179 points +37 

 

Ghost 298 games 46 goals 141 assists 187 points -25

 

So besides the +/- Ghost has the better stats. So it seems if the Jets were to move Ghost for Trouba the Flyers should be getting the 1st round pick back. 

 

I am one of the few who want to hold onto Ghost to see what can be from him.

 

They’re not the same kind of defenseman so comparing points  is a bit useless.  

 

Trouba’s an all situations kind of D man. It would be more akin to having Two Provos (though Trouba’s bigger).  

 

It’s a risk unloading Ghost.   I really like him and I’d be depressed trading him. 

 

But if I’m totally honest with myself, I don’t know if my guts is telling my they’re going to encourage Ghost to do what he does best and sets him apart.  They may. 

 

Even so, Sanheim’s shown that he has quite a bit of that in him, but with a bit more solid defense as well. 

 

I won’t be disappointed if it doesn’t happen because I really want to see Ghost be Ghost again. 

 

but i don’t  think I’ll be upset if it does happen.  This ain’t Luke Schenn. 

 

 

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48 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

NO.

 

I don't even need to ask @Podein25

who does that ? what moron trades a player like ghost, who is on a great contract, and a first pick for a player who is a little better *  

the asterisk indicates that's giving Trouba the benefit of the doubt. 

 

NO.

 

You gotta look at the big picture though.  

The first seems a little high, I admit.  

 

What you’re saying only holds any water if they not only release Ghost, but encourage him to do what he does best which he hasn’t done for two years.  

 

And they currently have more promising D men and promising prospects than they have roster slots for. 

 

I’d sooner. Trade Hagg, sure... but Trouba is likely more than just a little bit better than Ghost.  He’d sorta be like having another Provo who’s bigger and sets up goals more than scoring them.  

 

He plays 22+ a night in all circumstances of the game. 

 

Sanheim now looks like he can solidly QB pp1.  Myers can likely handle pp2. 

 

At this point, it’s about getting a little bit better in those areas where you can without getting worse in other areas. 

 

As as much as it pains me to think it, because it’ll kill me to see Ghost doing well anywhere else, I think this trade would kinda do that for the Flyers.  

 

It gets them better in the places they need to be better and they seem like they can compensate well for the areas they’d be losing.  

 

 

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13 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Honestly, it’s the 11th that gives me pause.  

 

Trouba isn't even under contract and is one year away from UFA status so it is going to take a big payday to get him to sign that away.

 

If i am trading Ghost who has an awesome contract of 4.5 mill for 4 more years the Flyers need a 1st round pick in return to move him or i just hang the damn phone...i be damn if i am going to sit and listen to another GM talk up his guy trying to get as much as he can for hi and turn around and devalue my guy he wants who has actually been more productive.

 

CLICK would be the phone hanging up.

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34 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I have been hollering to sign Karlsson pretty loudly - this is a concern of mine also. 

will he ever be healthy again ?  

If he is, imo he's worth every penny. I know it's getting to be a couple of years now but he is still the guy that dragged a terrible Ottawa Senators team to the conference finals. He played 27 minutes a night and for all those minutes in that series the Pens didn't do diddly/poo.

He is a special player.

 

However, "is he breaking down ?"is a legitimate question to ask.  

That's the gamble

 

 

I’m a big fat NO on Karlsson at this point. 

 

He’ll cost too much for way too many years.  He can’t be relied upon and when you drop that much cap space for that long on one guy, you need him to be able to show up.  

 

Its just not worth it anymore. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Trouba isn't even under contract and is one year away from UFA status so it is going to take a big payday to get him to sign that away.

 

If i am trading Ghost who has an awesome contract of 4.5 mill for 4 more years the Flyers need a 1st round pick in return to move him or i just hang the damn phone...i be damn if i am going to sit and listen to another GM talk up his guy trying to get as much as he can for hi and turn around and devalue my guy he wants who has actually been more productive.

 

CLICK would be the phone hanging up.

 

He’s an RFA now. They can lock him up with Provo.  

 

You don’t do the trade unless he signs.  That’s a requisite. 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Trouba is likely more than just a little bit better than Ghost.

 

I don't even know if that is the case.

 

And the Jets don't even have a 1st the Rangers have their 20 pick in the Hayes trade. 

 

So nope all bets are off.

 

However if they want to trade me Trouba and Kristian Vesalainen we can start there...otherwise Kevin it was nice talking...click...

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33 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I don't even know if that is the case.

 

And the Jets don't even have a 1st the Rangers have their 20 pick in the Hayes trade. 

 

So nope all bets are off.

 

However if they want to trade me Trouba and Kristian Vesalainen we can start there...otherwise Kevin it was nice talking...click...

 

 

My perspective is that Ghost is the Dman we want, but it's highly possible Trouba is the Dman we need.  

 

Would you trade Ghost for a slightly bigger Ivan Provorov? 

 

Trouba's got better number and Metrics than Provo (though Provo plays more minutes-which is in itself it's own problem as far as I'm concerned).

 

He's never going to have the skating or flash or point shot that Ghost does. of course neither has ghost lately.  

That said, he's much more solid in his own end and it's not like he doesn't contribute offensively.  

 

I love Ghost.  I love cheering for Ghost.  I want to see Ghost score a hat trick in a Stanley Cup final for the Flyers.

 

I think Trouba may be the better option to getting us to that final.

 

Ghost is the guy I want... I think Trouba might just be the guy we need.  

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23 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Trouba's got better number and Metrics than Provo (though Provo plays more minutes-which is in itself it's own problem as far as I'm concerned).

 

Ivan would too on a better team with Hell boy in net and Josh Morrissey as a partner.

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I would trade Ghost plus for Trouba but if the plus is the 11th overall, then something else has to be coming back.

 

My sense is that the Jets well package Trouba with a contract they want to get rid of because they have cap issues. They did this to get rid of Mason's contract. And it's just a Chevy thing to do.

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