Bleacher Report Rumors/Toronto Fans

[doom88]

Eh, think of it as peak potential, based on position they play.

[Phillygrump]

what are you basing that on? what spark of genius have you seen that i, obviously, have not? yes, yes, 10 days last spring he was amazing.

Dude, I disagree with you. You don't have to be a d!ck about it. You may not mean to attack my opinion, but with my threads it seems to be a trend with you.

JVR has shown the flashes of that max potential that he has. He is rumored to be hurt this season. Why wouldn't that lead me to believe he has a super high ceiling? I think he has the potential to be a dominant power forward in the NHL. I think Schenn has the potential to be a good stay at home defenseman in the NHL.

I think a dominant power forward is more valuable than a good defenseman. They may both end up as busts or Schenn may blossom and JVR may sink, but right now as far as value is concerned its my opinion that JVR is more valuable than Schenn.

Do you really want to give up on JVR on the heels of the post season he had last year? He might just be banged up aziz. You want Toronto to have the JVR from the Boston series last year? How many times have you seen the Flyers give up on their own guys and trade them away?

Furthermore, I completely agreed with doom's comments. He said it better than I did.

[Phillygrump]

And by the way those 10 days should not be forgotten about so fast aziz. He actually did that stuff. It wasn't just untapped potential. He did it in the post season.

Thats a bigger deal than you are downplaying it to be.

[aziz]

I think a dominant power forward is more valuable than a good defenseman.

and you're free to your opinion. choose between scott hartnell and zdeno chara, i choose chara, but there it is.

Do you really want to give up on JVR on the heels of the post season he had last year? He might just be banged up aziz. You want Toronto to have the JVR from the Boston series last year?

we potentially gave buffalo the leino from the 09-10 playoffs with his 21 points in 19 games. except we both know that was a one time fluke, don't we? i'm not positive JVR's was a fluke, but 7 points in 11 games isn't blowing me away, certainly far short of leino's one-time display, and his play outside of that week and a half last spring has been...unconvincing.

And by the way those 10 days should not be forgotten about so fast aziz. He actually did that stuff. It wasn't just untapped potential. He did it in the post season.

Thats a bigger deal than you are downplaying it to be.

again, see leino from two springs ago. he did it in the playoffs. once.

You may not mean to attack my opinion, but with my threads it seems to be a trend with you.

sorry about that, i didn't realize you were drawing my aim. nothing personal, just responding to the posts i have something to say about. i responded to this thread because you were "lol"ing at leaf fans for being high on the potential of one of their prospects for no reason other than a gut feeling, and then turned around and anounced how high you are on one of the flyer's prospects for no reason other than a gut feeling. i *am* down on JVR, but my point was the hypocrisy of mocking a fan base for a thing while doing exactly the same thing. i mean:

These Toronto fans make me laugh. I haven't seen anyone over-hype their prospects more than the Maple Leafs except maybe for the Yankees in baseball. These Leafs fans are delusional.

JVR definitely has a TON of upside. I wouldn't trade him unless he was involved in a trade for Weber.

you actually said that. lol @ toronto fans for over-hyping unproven prospects, but the flyers' 1-way forward who has yet to hit 50 points 3 years into his NHL career is as valuable as a top-3-in-the-league 2-way defenseman. do you not see the imbalance there?

[Phillygrump]

my point is only that the same could be said of 22yr old, big framed, former 5th overall pick luke schenn.

I get what you are saying. Which is why I said that a straight up trade of JVR for Schenn would be considered an even swap (even though I am not in favor of it, it can be considered even)

The Bleacher Report article I posted has these Toronto fans wanting JVR for lesser prospects or JVR+ for Schenn and that is delusional.

I am not a huge fan of Schenn. I think JVR projects to be a higher commodity than Schenn. JVR is underperforming this season, partly because he is playing hurt, but he could turn it on. Would you want to see him do that with the Leafs?

The only guy I would trade JVR for is Weber obviously then more would have to go Nashville's way than just JVR. Schenn is not Weber.

[Phillygrump]

. i responded to this thread because you were "lol"ing at leaf fans for being high on the potential of one of their prospects for no reason other than a gut feeling, and then turned around and anounced how high you are on one of the flyer's prospects for no reason other than a gut feeling. i *am* down on JVR, but my point was the hypocrisy of mocking a fan base for a thing while doing exactly the same thing. i mean:

I'm not mocking them for being high on Schenn as a gut feeling. I never said that. I am mocking them for overhyping their prospect to the point of expecting more than JVR in return while equating the value of JVR to their much lesser prospects.

Later I said that I am not high on Schenn. I'm not mocking them based on their gut feeling. I base stuff on gut feelings. They're important. I had a gut feeling that Giroux was going to end his career as one of the best Flyers ever. He's playing like he may someday fulfill that.

Also, JVR's dominance in the post season isn't the only reason to value him. It can't be discounted though. He and Leino aren't the same type of player. Heck he and Umberger (Umberger had a huge postseason against MTL) aren't the same type of player. JVR projects better than both of those guys though and he's shown flashes of the typ of player he's supposed to be and to give up on that now for a guy projected to be a good stayat home defenseman would be a mistake.

The point, however, is that I was mocking TO fans for their assumption that Schenn is so far superior to JVR that JVR could be had for Gunnarson+ is unrealistic.

Somehow you took something totally different from it and accused me of being a hypocrite. I don't know how you got that aziz. But it wasn't what I was saying.

you actually said that. lol @ toronto fans for over-hyping unproven prospects, but the flyers' 1-way forward who has yet to hit 50 points 3 years into his NHL career is as valuable as a top-3-in-the-league 2-way defenseman. do you not see the imbalance there?

Why wouldn't JVR being involved in a trade for Weber be different? Obviously not straight up. You infer a lot aziz.

It would take more than JVR to get Weber. I've acknowledged that.

sorry about that, i didn't realize you were drawing my aim. nothing personal, just responding to the posts i have something to say about.

I don't mean to be sensitive to it, but its frustrating when I'm trying to make a point and I feel you stretch it a little to counter. It seems like you are putting words in my mouth to try and make me look like an ass.

[Podein25]

and you're free to your opinion.

"I respect your opinion, but your full of sh!t!" Where's is that armadillo lover from New Mexico anyway?

Now, re the subject at hand. Here's what I'd say are some specific problems with L Schenn:

1. he is not mobile and his mobility has not improved noticeably;
   
2. his decision-making is slow and often poor (might be related to his lack of mobility, but it's also part mental);
   
3. he has a crappy shot;
   
4. his overall game is not dynamic (he's not creative, he doesn't make others around him better etc).
   

Defencemen that fit that description are dime-a-dozen as far as I can tell.

[aziz]

Now, re the subject at hand. Here's what I'd say are some specific problems with L Schenn:

• he is not mobile and his mobility has not improved noticeably;
  
• his decision-making is slow and often poor (might be related to his lack of mobility, but it's also part mental);
  
• he has a crappy shot;
  
• his overall game is not dynamic (he's not creative, he doesn't make others around him better etc).
  

Defencemen that fit that description are dime-a-dozen as far as I can tell.

i don't disagree with that. i'm just saying you could make a very similar list for JVR. swap out "is not mobile" for "does not backcheck" and "has a crappy shot" for "tends to stand around a lot" and there you are.

[Phillygrump]

i don't disagree with that. i'm just saying you could make a very similar list for JVR. swap out "is not mobile" for "does not backcheck" and "has a crappy shot" for "tends to stand around a lot" and there you are.

Yes, but you can change "tends to stand around a lot" "is not mobile", and "has a crappy shot" are not things that can necessarily be grown out of.

[JackStraw]

i don't disagree with that. i'm just saying you could make a very similar list for JVR. swap out "is not mobile" for "does not backcheck" and "has a crappy shot" for "tends to stand around a lot" and there you are.

But this is the key thing, the issues you cite regarding JVR are not limitations of his actual hockey ability. They're mental issues. Be they due to indifference (which I doubt) or lack of confidence (more likely) or that he's still learning how to apply his talent at the NHL level (virtually certain) he does in fact have the tools to be a game changer. Schenn doesn't. Put it another way, guys who can dominate with the puck tend to be more valuable than guys who dominate without it (to the extent that's even possible). JVR is potentially the former, Schenn is potentially the latter.

[JackStraw]

Yes, but you can change "tends to stand around a lot" "is not mobile", and "has a crappy shot" are not things that can necessarily be grown out of.

You beat me to it, and did it more concisely.

[aziz]

Why wouldn't JVR being involved in a trade for Weber be different? Obviously not straight up. You infer a lot aziz.

It would take more than JVR to get Weber. I've acknowledged that.

ok, i misunderstood. i figured that when you said the only trade deal you would be ok seeing JVR involved in would be for weber, that meant weber was the only comparable player around, that the two of them were in a class by themselves and any deal for JVR that did not involve weber would be selling JVR short. which, obviously, i disagree with.

It seems like you are putting words in my mouth to try and make me look like an ass.

i appologize, that really isn't my intention. hyping up home team prospects is a time honored tradition, and i don't think the leaf fans are doing anything different with their guy than flyers fans are doing with theirs. i'm seeing a lot of JVR > schenn here, just like leaf boards are saying schenn > JVR. i guess i went a little overboard trying to point out that comparison. my bad.

[aziz]

Yes, but you can change "tends to stand around a lot" "is not mobile", and "has a crappy shot" are not things that can necessarily be grown out of.

true, but you are still left with "his decision-making is slow and often poor" and "his overall game is not dynamic (he's not creative, he doesn't make others around him better etc)."

a defenseman who is not mobile and has a crappy shot can still be an effective stay-at-home shutdown guy. a forward who is incapable of reacting to the play as it develops can't be much more than a 3rd liner.

[Phillygrump]

Got it aziz. Simple miscommunication. Sorry if I took offense to nothing.

a defenseman who is not mobile and has a crappy shot can still be an effective stay-at-home shutdown guy. a forward who is incapable of reacting to the play as it develops can't be much more than a 3rd liner.

Fair enough, but I think mental aspects of the game are far more likely to be improved than the physical aspects of the game. With the exception that both players will probably grow into their size and learn to use it as an advantage.

[Vincent05]

Just read on another board. Leafs fan seems to really want JVR. They are proposing Phaneuf and a 1st for JVR and Schenn, they are smoking some great stuff lol.

[aziz]

They are proposing Phaneuf and a 1st for JVR and Schenn, they are smoking some great stuff lol.

honestly, i'd have to think long and hard about that one, though. phaneuf is a former 60 point dman who is on a ~55 point pace with a sh!tty team...imagine what he could do if he had a supporting cast. plus, he hits like a train. a pair of him and meszaros? ouch. and if the leafs start selling pieces parts off, that pick might be pretty low.

[Vincent05]

@aziz

I agree that he hits hard but reading up on him from sane leafs fan says he still get caught out of position alot. He might be a servicable guy but I don't think he's the clear cut no.1 we really need. Just my opinion though and his cap hit is 6.5mil/year for 2 more years after this. That's a high cap hit for him plus we are giving up 2 young forwards and that will hurt our depth. Yes the 1st rd pick might be high but we are essentially trading 2 forwards for 2 dman. Reading that this is a draft of dmans.

If I was to trade JVR and Schenn I rather go after Weber and he might agree to a long term contract at 7mil/year. He's the complete package we need.

[aziz]

@Vincent05

all very good points, and i didn't realize his cap hit was that high. if you are going to free up the space for someone, may as well go all-in on weber, i agree.