Jets trade Kevin Hayes to Flyers

[OccamsRazor]

10 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

No thanks.  I'd rather take UFA Pavelski from San Jose... a team that has a lot of questions to answer this off season and a player who probably has a year or two left anyway.  

 

I'm not saying Marleau to the Flyers they don't need or want him.

 

I'm saying he is rumored to be going to LA or Anaheim.

[radoran]

58 minutes ago, brelic said:

Shedding Marleau for a late round pick would give them much needed space... 

 

Patrick would like to introduce you to his No Movement Clause, which makes it more difficult - but not impossible - to "shed" him for a late round pick.

 

That signing was so obviously a Bad Idea from the moment they made it and they doubled down with an NMC...

[King Knut]

5 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

 

cap space is lame excuse because bryz wanted to come here when we were against the cap and that's why they traded richards and carter, what great players in the last 5 years wanted to come here regardless of cap space? give me names besides jvr?

 

 

Wait, what?   They traded Richards and Carter days before the UFA period.  

 

They traded them so they COULD make Bryz an offer.  Really?  

 

They literally haven't been able to afford a high end UFA since... unless you count VLC.

What's more they haven't had the talent to trade in order to make the room.  No one wanted what we had except for Giroux.

 

I don't think you understand the actual situation of the past 5 years. The team was in dire straits. 

 

But in case you need harder evidence:  Couturier, Simmonds, Schenn and Ghost all signed sweetheart deals BECAUSE they liked the organization.  They could have make like Pastrnak or Nylander and held out or gone to arbitration or demanded a one year deal to become UFA sooner.  THEY ALL CHOSE to be here.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[radoran]

8 minutes ago, King Knut said:

The team was in dire straits. 

 

Money for nothing. Chicks for free.

 

[King Knut]

5 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Money for nothing. Chicks for free.

 

 

You're thinking of the Richards and Carter years.  

 

(sorry, I'm not even on that side, I just couldn't resist the joke)

[King Knut]

26 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I'm not saying Marleau to the Flyers they don't need or want him.

 

I'm saying he is rumored to be going to LA or Anaheim.

 

I was agreeing with you.  I don't want him either.  That's all I meant.  

[brelic]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

 

Patrick would like to introduce you to his No Movement Clause, which makes it more difficult - but not impossible - to "shed" him for a late round pick.

 

That signing was so obviously a Bad Idea from the moment they made it and they doubled down with an NMC...

 

Yes, but apparently he's willing to waive it for SJ/West. Rumours, obviously. 

 

[radoran]

2 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

Yes, but apparently he's willing to waive it for SJ/West. Rumours, obviously. 

 

 

"Not impossible" (and still a bad signing)

 

[elmatus]

I wonder if Marleau would consider a similar route to VLC and agree to retire early. His heart seems to be on the west coast, and a lot has been said about his desire to spend more time with family. 

[vis]

On 6/11/2019 at 9:30 AM, radoran said:

I'm honestly hoping that "trading for Hayes" isn't the only option they are considering/pursuing.

For sure.  They have to do this in parallel with other possibilities, not linearly.  They need contingency plans in place if Hayes falls through.

[ruxpin]

18 hours ago, darthbal said:

not worth the loony that is in my pocket.

Why is there a loony in your pocket? Tell her to get the hell out! 

[ruxpin]

18 hours ago, tucson83 said:

i hope im wrong but something is telling me where are not destination for free agents,  i know jvr came here because of philla ties but everyone else because of what hextall did to this team, i dont know if anyone wants to come here if hayes doesnt sign.

What the hell did Hextall do to the team that would have anything to do with free agents coming here?  I don't get that statement at all. 

 

Because he couldn't sign anyone for a couple years because we had no cap space? Built a prospect pool that about ready to explode? 

 

I'm sorry, but if free agents don't want to come here -- which is plausible -- I don't understand the "what Hextall did to the team" ingredient. 

[OccamsRazor]

On 6/14/2019 at 7:23 AM, ruxpin said:

I'm sorry, but if free agents don't want to come here

 

So I think the Isles signing Jordan Eberle to a 5 year 27.5 mill deal with a 5.5mill AAV makes it interesting on the Hayes front.

 

Eberle is a way more consistent/productive player than Hayes has ever been and I don't care that he is a winger.

 

If he can take a 5 year deal no way Hayes can't.

 

Sorry but this is looking more and more like a walk away type moment coming soon.

 

It's just a 5th.

 

Fletch tried it's not his fault the kid has other intentions like making huge bank and the team winning it all is not important to him.

 

Move on then don't sign just because you gave up a pick for his rights.

 

Hell if he is intrigued by Columbus I would be on the phone moving his rights if I could.

[ruxpin]

13 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

So I think the Isles signing Jordan Eberle to a 5 year 27.5 mill deal with a 5.5mill AAV makes it interesting on the Hayes front.

 

Eberle is a way more consistent/productive player than Hayes has ever been and I don't care that he is a winger.

 

If he can take a 5 year deal no way Hayes can't.

 

Sorry but this is looking more and more like a walk away type moment coming soon.

 

It's just a 5th.

 

Fletch tried it's not his fault the kid has other intentions like making huge bank and the team winning it all is not important to him.

 

Move on then don't sign just because you gave up a pick for his rights.

 

Hell if he is intrigued by Columbus I would be on the phone moving his rights if I could.

I don't know. I don't agree about Eberle being more consistent.  I actually don't like his signing. 

 

But i think this leaves the possibility of a $6m x 6 for Hayes, which I'd do. No clauses. 

[OccamsRazor]

24 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I don't agree about Eberle being more consistent.

 

How you figure including the lockout year he had four straight 60 point seasons.

 

And if not for injuries followed up by 3 50 point season.

 

But even prorated for the lockout he had 7 straight 20 goal seasons.

 

That to me is consistent.

 

What is inconsistent?

 

Hayes career...

[tucson83]

On 6/14/2019 at 7:23 AM, ruxpin said:

What the hell did Hextall do to the team that would have anything to do with free agents coming here?  I don't get that statement at all. 

 

Because he couldn't sign anyone for a couple years because we had no cap space? Built a prospect pool that about ready to explode? 

 

I'm sorry, but if free agents don't want to come here -- which is plausible -- I don't understand the "what Hextall did to the team" ingredient. 

 

hextall created a losing culture by not making any moves, not getting rid of the coach, letting this team go to the dumps last year, if hayes goes to the columbus that tells you everything about the culture of this team. not fletches fault and now he has rebuild it by making alot of trades and start winning next year so fa players can come here.

 

fa players always came here because we were always winning, making moves, showing accountability by getting rid of the coaches, hextall did none of that, he has to be held accountable for that.

 

 

[ruxpin]

Just now, tucson83 said:

 

hextall created a losing culture by not making any moves, not getting rid of the coach, letting this team go to the dumps last year, if hayes goes to the columbus that tells you everything about the culture of this team. not fletches fault and now he has rebuild it by making alot of trades and start winning next year so fa players can come here.

 

fa players always came here because we were always winning, making moves, showing accountability by getting rid of the coaches, hextall did none of that, he has to be held accountable for that.

 

 

#notreality

[ruxpin]

23 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

How you figure including the lockout year he had four straight 60 point seasons.

 

And if not for injuries followed up by 3 50 point season.

 

But even prorated for the lockout he had 7 straight 20 goal seasons.

 

That to me is consistent.

 

What is inconsistent?

 

Hayes career...

I don't see 4 straight 60 point seasons. In any case, it's been 5 years.  I'd be more impressed with 50 point seasons if he weren't so inconsistent during them.  He really should be doing alot more.  Closer to early on. 

 

He's just not one of my favorite players.  That said, for what he's producing, his deal sounds about right. I just read an article saying he took a discount to stay.  I'm not sure I'd pay a penny more for him, honestly. 

 

I think those of us advocating for Hayes are probably inflating his value some, but I think the market will as well.   I don't perceive him as lazy, though that's been said on this thread. I do perceive Eberle as lazy. 

I'd pay Hayes in the same range, probably a little more, for 10 pts less/yr, but faceoffs, penalty kill, etc. 

 

I'm not going higher than 6/6, though. It's already pushing the limits. 

[OccamsRazor]

20 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I don't see 4 straight 60 point seasons

 

2011-12 76 points

2012-13 37 points 48 games lockout averages out to a 63 point season

 

2013-14 65 points

2014-15 63 points

 

That would be 4 straight 60 point seasons.

 

7 20 goal seasons

 

Pro rate the lockout year it would be 5 straight years of 24+ goal seasons.

 

I understand you might not care for him but that there is pretty consistent in my book.

[ruxpin]

25 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

2011-12 76 points

2012-13 37 points 48 games lockout averages out to a 63 point season

 

2013-14 65 points

2014-15 63 points

 

That would be 4 straight 60 point seasons.

 

7 20 goal seasons

 

Pro rate the lockout year it would be 5 straight years of 24+ goal seasons.

 

I understand you might not care for him but that there is pretty consistent in my book.

 

I figured that's what you were doing with the lockout year.  That's fair.

It also ended 5 years ago.  I think it's worth acknowledging that he got 59 points last year.  I think that has to count toward your point.  37 points this past season looks really bad, but I think a lot of that is due to the coach pulling everyone back to play a defensive style because they didn't have a lot to work with.   So, we'll see if the 37 points is an aberration (I would assume it is).  I think probably, unless they add some people who help inflate it, he's going to settle into 50-55 points going forward for the next few seasons.  While the year to year is fairly consistent, it masks that during the year he scores in bunches and, really, doesn't do a lot else.   But that's fine, actually.  We could use a "he only scores touchdowns" guy on the Flyers.  Every team does, I think.

 

So, I don't begrudge him his contract.   I wouldn't go a lot higher--or ANY higher--though he apparently gave the Isles a discount.  I think more than that is overpaying.   I'm okay with going to 6x6 for Hayes, but that's pushing it.  So, that would be the very limit.   It's a shame because the market may dictate more than that, but like you said initially, you have to leave him walk at that point.

 

I don't know what plan B is, but I'm pretty certain it will cost more than either 6x6 or a 5th rounder.

[OccamsRazor]

11 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

It also ended 5 years ago.  I think it's worth acknowledging that he got 59 points last year. 

 

Sure and he dropped down to a 50+ point guy basically.

 

And if you look at Hayes career he is a 40 point player basically except for one 50 point season.

 

12 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 I think that has to count toward your point.  37 points this past season looks really bad, but I think a lot of that is due to the coach pulling everyone back to play a defensive style because they didn't have a lot to work with.   So, we'll see if the 37 points is an aberration

 

And moving him around didn't help between lines.

 

And I think he rebounds.

 

I guess the point I'm trying to make is more about Hayes than Eberle is that he signed a reasonable deal and to me has a different however maybe more valuable skillset to offer than Hayes.

 

So if he can sign a 5 year deal for that amount I would expect Hayes too. But he more than likely want because well he has never played for the Flyers so why should he give them a discount.

 

So I don't expect one.

 

So I'm just not excited about giving him a 6 year 6 mill per or higher type of deal only to be hell to get out of from later.

 

A Mcdud type of move expect in a forward type form.

 

And I don't want to block any kids going into 2020-21.

 

So I wouldn't be mad if Flyers went another route.

[OccamsRazor]

19 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 I wouldn't go a lot higher--or ANY higher--though he apparently gave the Isles a discount.  I think more than that is overpaying.

 

And Brock Nelson finally has one 50 point season and lands a 6x6mill deal is crazy.

 

Makes Eblerle's deal in my mind due to past production look like a helluva bargain...

[tucson83]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Sure and he dropped down to a 50+ point guy basically.

 

And if you look at Hayes career he is a 40 point player basically except for one 50 point season.

 

 

And moving him around didn't help between lines.

 

And I think he rebounds.

 

I guess the point I'm trying to make is more about Hayes than Eberle is that he signed a reasonable deal and to me has a different however maybe more valuable skillset to offer than Hayes.

 

So if he can sign a 5 year deal for that amount I would expect Hayes too. But he more than likely want because well he has never played for the Flyers so why should he give them a discount.

 

So I don't expect one.

 

So I'm just not excited about giving him a 6 year 6 mill per or higher type of deal only to be hell to get out of from later.

 

A Mcdud type of move expect in a forward type form.

 

And I don't want to block any kids going into 2020-21.

 

So I wouldn't be mad if Flyers went another route.

you know what, i dont care about hayes, if signs here great if not, no big deal, im confident in our coaching staff, whoever comes in a reasonable deal young experienced or old player, he will do well in this system. st. louis didnt have stars, we dont need stars, we just need good players all over this team.

 

 

Edited June 15, 2019 by tucson83

[intheslot]

How much is to much.???

sounds like Holegram contracts are back with a N M C .....

 looks like over 6 for Hays ..

 

[elmatus]

3 hours ago, intheslot said:

How much is to much.???

sounds like Holegram contracts are back with a N M C .....

 looks like over 6 for Hays ..

 

 

Yeah, it's a tricky situation. Basically it boils down to how badly we need a 2C. Six a year for Hayes is alright, but more than that seems like an overpayment. At the same time, we need a 2C more than anything else on this team right now, and it's not like they're falling from the sky. Hayes is serviceable in that role, which gives him value in a weak market like this one.

 

That said, we do also have Ghost. A trade involving Ghost for a 2C could open up a solid amount of doors. There's also Kadri out of TO who has been rumoured a bunch. I'd put him about on par with Hayes for the most part, and I'd be fine with either of them at this point.

 

It's a tricky situation really. I haven't been super impressed with Fletch so far, but I'm actually pretty fine with the Hayes thing. It's a major need for us, and he's at least trying to fill it. The alternative of just doing nothing would be far worse imo.