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CoachX

Defense: Gudas' value

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47 minutes ago, elmatus said:

Edler used to be good

 

He still is a pretty solid D man he skates well and brings some good size.

 

I mentioned him somewhere in the AV thread after he was hired him maybe bringing in some guys he was familiar with like Hayes, Zuccarello and Edler.

 

He had some good production under AV.

 

Edler put up 10 goals 34 points in only 56 games last year i would certainly consider him.

 

He is a left hand shot and i would prefer to add a right hand shot back there though.

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21 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

Provorov - Myers

Sanheim - Gudas

Morin - Ghost 

Hagg

 

Yeah, not sure I like that. Myers definitely does not belong on the top pair. Maybe he'll work his way there someday, but I would say there's no chance AV gifts him a spot on the top pair. He simply hasn't played enough NHL hockey to be given the toughest assignments, most minutes, and most responsibility. That's a recipe for disaster.

 

Not sold on Morin either. I think he's the 7th to start the year and will sub in for injuries or to change things up in poor stretches from the 3rd pairing. Unless he outright steals a spot in camp, start him as the healthy scratch, see how he does in practice, and go from there.

 

Also don't think Ghost is here to start the season.

 

If I had to guess, I'd say it will look more like

 

Provorov/Subban or Trouba

Sanheim/Gudas

Hagg/Myers

Morin

 

 

 

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Gudas is a cap-friendly dude to keep around.  But an "aggressive" Fletcher might say his value may decrease and trade him now.  Mark Friedman might be a cheaper, less penalty-prone alternative.  As for Morin--who the heck knows.  Skill aside, I worry about karma, and his sucks.  I give the kid credit for persistence, but this may go down as a project that never panned out.  

 

 

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29 minutes ago, brelic said:

Not sold on Morin either.

 

Well we'll agree to disagree he looked better than Hagg last year at the end of the season....all Hagg does is hit.

 

And a lot of times he takes himself out the play to do so abandoning his responsibility...a Swedish version of Luke Schenn at times however he skates better than Luke. 

 

Ghost and Morin looked pretty good last together Ghost looks more comfortable playing with Sam for whatever reason maybe it's due to their chemistry with the Phantoms they had.

 

Sure Myers isn't ideal yet to play with Ivan but that is why you have camp and preseason to work on it. And he and Sanheim sure didn't look so hot together.

 

So who is going to play with Ivan then? Well i think if i have to chose between Subban and Trouba i will take Trouba.

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2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Well we'll agree to disagree he looked better than Hagg last year at the end of the season....all Hagg does is hit.

 

I mean, Morin could end up better than Hagg, but 2 games is just not enough of a sample size for me to say that he is right now.

 

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

Sure Myers isn't ideal yet to play with Ivan but that is why you have camp and preseason to work on it. And he and Sanheim sure didn't look so hot together.

 

So who is going to play with Ivan then? Well i think if i have to chose between Subban and Trouba i will take Trouba.

 

I just can't imagine AV going with Myers as the top pairing D man to start the season. Eventually, sure it's possible. 

 

I'm not sure which I'd prefer between Subban and Trouba, but I'd be happy with either one. Subban is more expensive but expires in 3 years, whereas Trouba is younger but will certainly get 7 years. Depends on what the ask is from each team.

 

But right now, I'm convinced that Fletch will go out and get a guy who can play top pairing minutes. Goaltending was a part of the garbage play in our end last year, but also youth and inexperience on D, and at this point, talent level. They're just not "there" yet.

 

If we subtract Ghost, next year's defense will be 28, 23, 23, 22, 22, 22 with a total of 975 NHL games.

 

By comparison, STL is 29, 35, 22, 25, 32, 25, 29 with a total of 3532 NHL games.

 

Boston is 41, 25, 27, 22, 31, 28, 21 with a total of 3255 NHL games.

 

I love having our prospects graduate to the Flyers, but there is also a thing called balance, and right now, it feels like we're unbalanced. 

 

There's no right or wrong - but Fletch has a fire under his butt to make the playoffs, and I don't think that defense cuts it. He'll make a move.

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6 minutes ago, brelic said:

Morin could end up better than Hagg, but 2 games is just not enough of a sample size for me to say that he is right now.

 

It was 5 games which he looked solid in.

 

I'm ok with finding another option than Myers as a top pair next year.

 

But the guy who needs to play next to Ivan isn't on the roster then so now what?

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8 minutes ago, brelic said:

By comparison, STL is 29, 35, 22, 25, 32, 25, 29 with a total of 3532 NHL games.

 

Boston is 41, 25, 27, 22, 31, 28, 21 with a total of 3255 NHL games.

 

Sure but those numbers get waaay skewed when you have a 42 year old and 35 year old defenseman on the teams.

 

Again I'm done with get a vet type.

 

Because Mcdud ain't it. Or Gudas either.

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50 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Sure but those numbers get waaay skewed when you have a 42 year old and 35 year old defenseman on the teams.

 

Again I'm done with get a vet type.

 

Because Mcdud ain't it. Or Gudas either.

 

Well, of course they do. That's how experience works. 

 

We don't need a 42 year old, or even a 35 year old, but Fletch's position (bot implied and pretty much explicitly stated) is that the defense needs more experience.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

Well, of course they do. That's how experience works. 

 

We don't need a 42 year old, or even a 35 year old, but Fletch's position (bot implied and pretty much explicitly stated) is that the defense needs more experience.

 

 

 

Exactly Mcdud is their Obi wan...explains some issues I guess...

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6 hours ago, AJgoal said:

 

Morin. MacDonald. Gritty.

I hear Gritty plays with a bit of an edge

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The idea of keeping Gudas and let someone take his spot makes sense to me. Then move him at the deadline. That leaves our defense alone, and i'm fine with that too.

 

Option 2: Id much rather they move Gudas now, who is a liability, then Ghost, who had an off year. 

 

At this point in his career, Gudas is what he is. He wont change. The ceiling on ghost is still an unknown. Considering how often i read a post about how long it takes a young defensive player to mature, i'd expect more patience with Ghost

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Posted (edited)
On 6/7/2019 at 10:56 AM, brelic said:

 

Yeah, not sure I like that. Myers definitely does not belong on the top pair. Maybe he'll work his way there someday, but I would say there's no chance AV gifts him a spot on the top pair. He simply hasn't played enough NHL hockey to be given the toughest assignments, most minutes, and most responsibility. That's a recipe for disaster.

 

Not sold on Morin either. I think he's the 7th to start the year and will sub in for injuries or to change things up in poor stretches from the 3rd pairing. Unless he outright steals a spot in camp, start him as the healthy scratch, see how he does in practice, and go from there.

 

Also don't think Ghost is here to start the season.

 

If I had to guess, I'd say it will look more like

 

Provorov/Subban or Trouba

Sanheim/Gudas

Hagg/Myers

Morin

 

Trouba doesn't have enough firepower to be on the top line with Provo though, unless you think Provo will develop into more of an offensive threat? I could see that I suppose. You're thinking Provo becomes the fire while Trouba stays back to watch the farm?

 

Subban on the other hand would make significantly more sense. Always hard to tell if they'd play well together, or if Subban is still that guy. I wouldn't be opposed to trying though.

 

I've said it before, but if Fletch is going to bother getting a vet dman, he really should get one who has a proven record of high-level play. Subban would be that at least.

Edited by elmatus
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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, elmatus said:

 

Trouba doesn't have enough firepower to be on the top line with Provo though, unless you think Provo will develop into more of an offensive threat? I could see that I suppose. You're thinking Provo becomes the fire while Trouba stays back to watch the farm?

 

Subban on the other hand would make significantly more sense. Always hard to tell if they'd play well together, or if Subban is still that guy. I wouldn't be opposed to trying though.

 

I've said it before, but if Fletch is going to bother getting a vet dman, he really should get one who has a proven record of high-level play. Subban would be that at least.

So youre saying Ghost is out, get Subban, and leave Gudas as is?

 

How are you getting Subban?

Edited by CoachX

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, CoachX said:

So youre saying Ghost is out, get Subban, and leave Gudas as is?

 

How are you getting Subban?

 

Nah, I'm just commenting on the defence pairings mentioned by @brelic above.

 

As it stands right now, I think the only reason we should move Ghost is to get a legit 2C if Hayes refuses to sign. Personally, I don't see the point of trading Ghost for some other dman, unless that dman is a slam dunk. Trouba is far from a slam dunk. 

 

Is LA dealing Doughty? I'll listen.

 

As far as Subban goes, Fletch has said he would like to get a vet dman. If he does so, I just hope it's for someone who has some sort of proven track record of great play. While it's certainly fair to wonder if Subban is still as good as he once was, there's really no doubting he used to be a very dynamic player. So in that sense he fits the bill. We've been comparing with Trouba, which imo is a very bad comparison. Trouba has never been that guy. I have no reason to believe he'll suddenly morph into that guy at 26 or whatever.

 

That's not to say I want Subban either, only that I could understand Fletch trading for him. I still think trading Ghost to get Subban is essentially trading a younger offensive dman for an older one, which I'm not sure makes a ton of sense. 

 

As far as Trouba goes, if Fletch can get him for cheap, then sure. Ghost is not cheap. He's been one of the top offensive dmen in the league since he showed up. The return for him should be better than just Trouba. If it's isn't, Fletch will have undersold.

 

TL;DR:

If Fletch is trading Ghost, it should be for a 2C, not another dman.

Trouba is overhyped. Get him if he's cheap, but stay away otherwise.

If he absolutely feels a burning desire to get a "vet dman", Subban wouldn't be the worst choice. At least he has a history of franchise-level play.

Edited by elmatus

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All this talk about possibly getting Subban, is all good, but the question should be the following:

 

Would Subban even want to come to Philly, to be reunited with a coach (Therrien) that he is know to have a volatile relationship with?

 

 

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58 minutes ago, darthbal said:

All this talk about possibly getting Subban, is all good, but the question should be the following:

 

Would Subban even want to come to Philly, to be reunited with a coach (Therrien) that he is know to have a volatile relationship with?

 

 

 

Even better I don't want Subban at all.

 

Find another option.

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On 6/6/2019 at 7:21 AM, CoachX said:

Lots of talk about defense and trades. Seems the popular thought is the Flyers need a vet presence added. Im not sure I agree. I think Hart is the guy now and they should focus on making the defense the priority to help him. With Myers and Morin in the talk, its pretty crowded. I've made it known I think Ghost should stay. So what about Gudas?

 

I like that he is physical, but he is reckless and I'm tired of the suspensions. Does he have value as part of a trade that might bring a better veteran back to the team? 

 

To be honest I dont watch the rest of the league like many of you, so Im ignorant of who that vet could be. 

 

His value's never been higher.  They gave him the Ashbee award this year and despite the stupid suspension, I think he might have deserved it.  

 

What's worse is that he's an impending UFA, so if you don't trade him now and you're (no whammies no whammies) in playoff position by the deadline, what the hell do you do with him if he's playing well?

 

I think a trade makes sense.  I like him, I don't want to play against him.  Plus... right handed shot.  

 

At the end of the day, they won't be playing Gudas Morin and Hagg over Sanheim, Myers or whoever they sign in the off season and I'm only trading Ghost if someone gives us something really really sweet in exchange.  

 

Gudas and Hagg are my odd men out (AMac is a waive in my world) and of the two of them Gudas is likely to get more in return. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Podein25 said:

 

So I;m guessing trade him, amirite?

 

Honestly the biggest obstacle is the otherwise lack of a right handed shot.  

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I think he is the logical odd man out also. Great points. I fully concur.  I'm curious what his market value is

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7 hours ago, King Knut said:

What's worse is that he's an impending UFA, so if you don't trade him now and you're (no whammies no whammies) in playoff position by the deadline, what the hell do you do with him if he's playing well?

 

Trade him for even more if the kids are showing they can take over...by this i mean Provorov, Ghost, Sanheim, Myers, Morin and Hagg (if he is still around).

 

This is the last year Friedman is waiver exempt so if need be he can come up if there is an injury.

 

And if they get a vet even better. But Gudas can go to the highest bidder at the deadline.

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1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Trade him for even more if the kids are showing they can take over...by this i mean Provorov, Ghost, Sanheim, Myers, Morin and Hagg (if he is still around).

 

This is the last year Friedman is waiver exempt so if need be he can come up if there is an injury.

 

And if they get a vet even better. But Gudas can go to the highest bidder at the deadline.

So if they are in playoff position and he's having a good season, you trade him?

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2 hours ago, CoachX said:

So if they are in playoff position and he's having a good season, you trade him?

 

Depends on what the return is and how critical he is to their success.

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    • 4
      Post
      Gudas has quietly been one of the best defensemen on the team since his arrival. Frankly, I'd prefer a mid-length extension to a trade.
    • 2
      Post
      Gudas was our best dman last year and Sanheim was second. Gudas toned it down and played smart hockey.  He is a veteran with this young defense it would be dumb to trade him at this point. His biggest value isnto actually stay on the team for another year or two.
    • 2
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      I hear Gritty plays with a bit of an edge
    • 2
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      Trouba doesn't have enough firepower to be on the top line with Provo though, unless you think Provo will develop into more of an offensive threat? I could see that I suppose. You're thinking Provo becomes the fire while Trouba stays back to watch the farm?   Subban on the other hand would make significantly more sense. Always hard to tell if they'd play well together, or if Subban is still that guy. I wouldn't be opposed to trying though.   I've said it before, but if Fletch
    • 1
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      I agree with Ron.  Myers looks ready, but he's still young. Morin, I'm note sure about. He may need another year in the minors.Gotta have a guy like Gudas around with all those youngsters. Plus, he's big and nasty. I want Carter protected to the nth degree.
    • 1
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      Aside from using his stick like a Ninja Turtle weapon, I honestly felt like he had fewer WTF moments than Ghost or Provo last year.  
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