Trade: Gudas traded for Niskanen

[ruxpin]

32 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

You're speaking as if Radko Gudas was a Norris candidate. I liked Radko well enough, but I hardly think losing him is much of a blow. He has a penchant for brain farts and getting out of position to try and make the highlight reel with a mid-ice hit. Let's not pretend he's more than what he is.

 

Honestly, the difference between these two as far as how "good" they are is pretty marginal. They're different players for sure, with different styles, but I'd hesitate to say Niskanen is a worse player. He is older; I'll give you that. But his contract is fine for the player he is. They do have a different play style though. My guess is Niskanen's more traditional play is closer to what AV and co are looking for. 

 

So what's good about it? I honestly can't say for sure it is good. I don't think it's bad though. More to my point: I don't really think it matters a whole lot. They're both reasonably effective NHL defensemen. It's pretty meh as far as trades go.

 

 

Yeah. 

 

I just think the three biggest differences is that Niskanen can play further up roster than Gudas, is better at the out pass, and can play the penalty kill more responsibly. 

 

It's a subtle move, but I think I was initially undervaluing it.  Time, as always, will tell. 

[tucson83]

57 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

You're speaking as if Radko Gudas was a Norris candidate. I liked Radko well enough, but I hardly think losing him is much of a blow. He has a penchant for brain farts and getting out of position to try and make the highlight reel with a mid-ice hit. Let's not pretend he's more than what he is.

 

Honestly, the difference between these two as far as how "good" they are is pretty marginal. They're different players for sure, with different styles, but I'd hesitate to say Niskanen is a worse player. He is older; I'll give you that. But his contract is fine for the player he is. They do have a different play style though. My guess is Niskanen's more traditional play is closer to what AV and co are looking for. 

 

So what's good about it? I honestly can't say for sure it is good. I don't think it's bad though. More to my point: I don't really think it matters a whole lot. They're both reasonably effective NHL defensemen. It's pretty meh as far as trades go.

 

 

 

plus gudas is a third rounder and niskanen is a first rounder.

[brelic]

31 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I don't get how the assessment "worse player" is made.  I'll give you older. And higher cost. 

 

Worse? You haven't seen one or the other of them play. 

 

Before the end of Niskanen's contact, this may be worth revisiting.  

 

FWIW, the Caps boards are not exactly happy about the trade. They think it's a downgrade. "And we didn't even get a pick!!"

 

 

[elmatus]

34 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Niskanen can play further up roster than Gudas

 

Maybe. I'm really not sure he should though. The reality is Niskanen's play last year wasn't first pairing material. He had a pretty bad season defensively in fact. It's possible it was just an outlier of course, but it looks like Gudas was actually more effective defensively last season than Niskanen by a decent bit.

 

Offensively Niskanen seems to have the edge though. He's a better handler and passer and he picks his shots quite well for a dman from what I've read. My honest guess is he won't be playing on the first pair for very long. If he does, it's a sign our young guns aren't progressing as well as we might like. He should probably be a second pairing guy at this point in his career.

 

Overall though, I still don't think this trade is a big deal.

Edited June 15, 2019 by elmatus

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

3 hours ago, Podein25 said:

 

It is! So I'm 100% ok with this move! 

 

 

WTH?!?  Plus/minus is statistically inaccurate!

[ruxpin]

15 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

FWIW, the Caps boards are not exactly happy about the trade. They think it's a downgrade. "And we didn't even get a pick!!"

 

 

 

Without sarcasm--that makes me feel good.

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, elmatus said:

My honest guess is he won't be playing on the first pair for very long. If he does, it's a sign our young guns aren't progressing as well as we might like. He should probably be a second pairing guy at this point in his career.

 

I'm thinking that as well, except...

The left side is kind of set on the top two pairs with Provorov and Sanheim.   Maybe you don't want Myers on the top pair just yet, and this way he gets to move down next to Sanheim.  They played well together in Lehigh, so there's some familiarity.   I wouldn't dream of putting Gudas on the top pair next to Provorov.  So, this enables the 2nd pairing for Myers and puts Sanheim back on his natural side.  

 

It also keeps Ghost on the left side and either hides Hagg some or gives Morin a chance to develop against, presumably, lesser opposition.

 

By 2020-21, I think a lot of this changes and you can start moving Niskanen down if it's (probably) necessary.

 

Two things about comparing Gudas to Niskanen, though, as far as numbers.  Niskanen played, presumably, against better opponents and played 4 more minutes a game, or 5 1/2 (ish) more shifts.

 

I'm not rah rah about this. I swear.  It's really only a subtle improvement, but I do think it's an improvement.  But I think where it helps is with the rest of the roster.  And maybe in the locker room.

 

I suspect this may be a moot discussion because I have a feeling we're not done on the back end.  If we are, I do think it made our defense a stronger unit, even if just for where it put everyone else.

Edited June 15, 2019 by ruxpin

[OccamsRazor]

3 hours ago, elmatus said:

He has a penchant for brain farts and getting out of position

 

See last years playoff series vs Penguins.

 

He was terrible...should have been traded after that.

[Podein25]

2 hours ago, AlaskaFlyerFan said:

WTH?!?  Plus/minus is statistically inaccurate!

 

Of course it is. It was never expected to be anything other than a crude proxy. It's not the guy who invented it's fault that people today want it to be "statistically accurate"!

[LegionOfDoom]

The main takeaway I think Fletcher if not him, then I think/feel about this trade is not apples for apples skill/talent wise of each player but more of we need a veteran/leader type player for our young players on defense, the chances of signing Eric Karlsson is low, but having him mentor the young defensive players would be worth the price of admission to having him sign for us. McDonald was that guy the organization and team felt his value so high for. And the locker room backed him up, but he no longer was playing for Gordan and could no longer be realistically looked at for, due to his circumstance.

We have a lot of Vet leaders for the forwards. Jagr was brought in to help teach players to train and work the right way in this league.

Eric Karlson could do the same. 

Niskanen I believe was brought in to bring in a work ethic and tenured Vet experience to help guide the young players, which falls in line with Coach AV's way of coaching(The Vets will be relied on to shoulder leadership and communication on how to play the game).

Ghost is getting there as a Vet and Gudas was in a way, seemed indirectly showing the Vet presence, but I think Niskanen will have a bigger impact in that department and is a player whose style can translate better to how the rookies play, then the rookies seeing an ECW/WWF player play his game, who they know they cannot copy, or translate their game close to.

If our rookies were more in line to learn how to win in the Royal Rumble, then ya Gudas would be a strong candidate.

But the organization is trying to bring in young Civil Engineers to learn on the job and do their job the right way. Niskanen is more in line with showing how to blueprint the building blocks of a modern build.

Again Eric Karlson, better choice. Niskanen better choice than Gudas.

 

And yada yada yada Corsi here, Porshe there, Bugatti for/against stats I believe were slight secondary in cause and affect of this trade.

Face value a child looks at a dime and wants the nickel because it's bigger and has more mass than a small dime.

 

Others have pointed out and I also worry and the needle is moving to this direction...Chuck Fletcher's trades have not yet been moving towards we getting a little more at the end. So far, it's been we have to loose something a little more than the other GM.

Whether it affects us drastically or not, which so far it hasn't. But the dna of all moves has been, we trim a little more off then what we're getting, whether it's market value, availability, perceived value, or circumstance. It's just that end result, which has me wondering how will it be when we have to deal with the bigger fish and issues that will come up. I never felt that with Hextall behind the desk.

 

Hextall = Always got the better deal, though parts/players acquired were questionable.

Fletcher = Seems to give a better deal then get a better deal, though parts/players acquired seem better value.

All this is still premature and volatile.

 

[flyercanuck]

I won't say this is a terrible deal.. It can't hurt having a seasoned vet back there. Niskanen is a better skater, though the wheels are definitely falling off. Just when it seems Gudas is getting better.

 

 And why do Fletchers trades seem like he's doing the other guy a favor?  Fan reaction seems to be either Huh? or guys defending the move but never what an awesome move by our gm! 

 

 Something that hasn't been mentioned either...great, now we get to play against Tom Wilson AND Radko Gudas on the same team! Philly just got a lot softer.

Edited June 15, 2019 by flyercanuck

[CoachX]

20 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

Does this move really give us what management said they were looking for? We traded a vet for a vet. I thought they wanted an additional vet with leadership skills to help the young guys. Meyers and Haag on the third pair could be a liability. The Ghost and Sanheim pair is not balanced it’s all offense. I still think they add another defenseman all they did was a lateral move.

Based on things i've read, Niskanen is more of a locker room leader than Gudas is. And he doesnt bring the on ice liability. In addition to suspensions, Gudas has a habit of being ejected. It also doesnt appear he was much of a leader. Assuming he makes the team, and stays healthy, Morin will pick up the nasty edge lost by Gudas

[CoachX]

Lot of in depth analysis and opinion on this deal. At the risk of over doing it, I think this was a good move. 

 

The defense will be better in that you added a better leader who can do more (pk), with less liability. And you have only picked up a two year commitment. This should allow the younger D-men to develop without hamstringing yourself. 

 

It certainly appears there is an emphasis on suring the team defensively. And I think this puts an end to the speculation about Ghost being moved

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

I won't say this is a terrible deal.. It can't hurt having a seasoned vet back there. Niskanen is a better skater, though the wheels are definitely falling off. Just when it seems Gudas is getting better.

 

 And why do Fletchers trades seem like he's doing the other guy a favor?  Fan reaction seems to be either Huh? or guys defending the move but never what an awesome move by our gm! 

 

 Something that hasn't been mentioned either...great, now we get to play against Tom Wilson AND Radko Gudas on the same team! Philly just got a lot softer.

 

Hey maybe they get lucky and play to their standards and they will both be suspended for a Flyer game or two...

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

I think it's telling that the 'bad' defender the Flyers acquired still played on average 22 minutes a night in the regular season and almost 25 minutes a night in the playoffs. Now that he's getting a full off-season to heal up and playing with younger players with younger legs, he's not going to have to do as much heavy lifting. His puck moving savvy and his on ice awareness is going to be huge. 

 

I love Radko and it's tough to see him go, but the Flyers have a Radko-type guy in Morin and he's going to play this year and I bet he's going to play a lot. The Flyers won't be as 'soft' as some might expect. I still think one more rough and tumble player will be in the lineup. Don't forget that Hartman hits like a freight train (and I'm willing to bet that Vigneault will help Hartman harness his game) and Konecny can throw the body as well. I get that they aren't 6'0+ in height, but you get a bowling ball of hate flying down the wing and knocking you on your ass, you're going to feel it. 

 

I like what Fletcher's doing. Notice that none of the important assets have been given away and that all the top prospects remain. That gives me hope.

[OccamsRazor]

Alright I have been watching a lot of Niskanen's goal scoring videos on youtube as many as I could find of him on the Caps and sadly I wish it was all on one video so it took awhile to find them all and watch them.

 

But what I gathered is he brings a whole different skillset to handling and carrying the puck than what Gudas was capable of.

 

He does it quite well and is impressive skating in close to the goal and snapping home a shot.

 

Gudas was more of just a cannon from the point that a majority of the time didn't even hit the net. Not ragging on him just stating what is real.

 

So now I must say I'm more excited for this move and think of the positive aspects he can bring to the team and the young defensemen he will be helping reach the next level of their potential.

 

Sure he won't bring the physical stuff Gudas brought but he can help in other key areas like the powerplay and penalty kill.

 

I hope he turns into a good fit.

 

#excited 

[JR Ewing]

Yeah... I don't really like the deal for Philly, though it's not the end of the world. Niskanen had a poor season, the puck moved the wrong way more often, and he had his ice time cut. Maybe it was just an off-year for him; it's possible and we won't know until next year. Thing is, he's 33, and this could be his new normal, and Philly paid ever penny and then some to find out if it is or not.

 

For a few years now, Gudas has contributed to positive goal shares, and for only $2.5M the Caps have found themselves another guy who can do that, and has a better chance to do it for the near future. From a Flyers perspective, I would be much happier with the deal if they weren't retaining salary.

 

The saving grace will be if Niskanen just had an off-year and can turn it around, but his age and mileage suggest it's not THE most likely scenario.

 

-------

 

Because it just has to be mentioned: the Caps now have Tom Wilson AND Radko Gudas. Look out, Metro.

 

 

Edited June 15, 2019 by JR Ewing

[OccamsRazor]

8 minutes ago, JR Ewing said:

Because it just has to be mentioned: the Caps now have Tom Wilson AND Radko Gudas. Look out, Metro.

 

 

Looks like DOPES might need to set up an office in DC.

 

Not worried about Gudas he'll be lining up a hit while the puck is headed down low for an easy tap in from the guy he left alone....

[CoachX]

6 minutes ago, JR Ewing said:

Yeah... I don't really like the deal for Philly, though it's not the end of the world. Niskanen had a poor season, the puck moved the wrong way more often, and he had his ice time cut. Maybe it was just an off-year for him; it's possible and we won't know until next year. Thing is, he's 33, and this could be his new normal, and Philly paid ever penny and then some to find out if it is or not.

 

For a few years now, Gudas has contributed to positive goal shares, and for only $2.5M the Caps have found themselves another guy who can do that, and has a better chance to do it for the near future. From a Flyers perspective, I would be much happier with the deal if they weren't retaining salary.

 

The saving grace will be if Niskanen just had an off-year and can turn it around, but his age and mileage suggest it's not THE most likely scenario.

 

-------

 

Because it just has to be mentioned: the Caps now have Tom Wilson AND Radko Gudas. Look out, Metro.

 

 

Gudas was a suspension liability everytime he stepped on the ice.  If not that, then a game misconduct.  The target on his back forced him to change his game which will lessen his effectiveness. Since the team is trying to build a stellar defensive in front of a franchise goalie, there is no point starting out with one leg cut off. And lets not forget the logjam at D. 

[JR Ewing]

45 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Gudas was a suspension liability everytime he stepped on the ice.  If not that, then a game misconduct.  The target on his back forced him to change his game which will lessen his effectiveness. Since the team is trying to build a stellar defensive in front of a franchise goalie, there is no point starting out with one leg cut off. And lets not forget the logjam at D. 

 

Yet the Flyers continued to score more goals while he was on the ice than they gave up.

 

Look, everything you're saying could be true and everything I've said could be wrong. It's an absolute possibility. For me, though, looking at their ages and recent performance, and the cap costs, I don't think it's a terrific bet for Philly. I don't like where Niskanen sits on the calendar, because this is when the miles really begin to show hard for everybody but a few freaks players.

 

All the rest of this stuff about people's leadership is just talk: the same self-serving, self-soothing sorts of things that fans say when they wish to declare their team the winner of a deal. You don't know and I don't know and media don't really know about which players are the best leaders, so it's mostly nonsense.

[CoachX]

13 minutes ago, JR Ewing said:

 

Yet the Flyers continued to score more goals while he was on the ice than they gave up.

 

Look, everything you're saying could be true and everything I've said could be wrong. It's an absolute possibility. For me, though, looking at their ages and recent performance, and the cap costs, I don't think it's a terrific bet for Philly. I don't like where Niskanen sits on the calendar, because this is when the miles really begin to show hard for everybody but a few freaks players.

 

All the rest of this stuff about people's leadership is just talk: the same self-serving, self-soothing sorts of things that fans say when they wish to declare their team the winner of a deal. You don't know and I don't know and media don't really know about which players are the best leaders, so it's mostly nonsense.

However, if the talk comes from within the organization, it has more credibility than two fans debating. I dont tend to believe anything reported by media, unless verified, but they do usually get info direct from management.

 

All that aside, the Flyers felt this was the right move and they dont seem to be worried about age. The comments Im reading are more related to leadership and mentoring. If that was Gudas' strength, he would still be here. And the suspensions are factual. He's managed to get some type of one each of the last three seasons

[mojo1917]

I think this trade is about skating.

There isn't one forward in the league that thought, "Damn Gudas has the puck, I better not crash down on him because if I miss, he'll be off to the races"

Can't think that way about Niskanen. 

Gudas isn't a bad skater, in fact I think he's a good hockey player, but Niskanen makes the Flyers D more mobile.  I think we just watched a team that has 5 dudes that can skate on the blue line skate the cup.

I don't look forward to our forwards going into the corner with Gudas vs Washington, but that's it, if this team is going to play up tempo and rely on the d to skate the puck, he's not a fit, Niskanen is a better player IMO and will be a better fit for that style of play.

I'm good with this. I do think it's 3 years too late, but I also think Niskanen has significant tread left on the tire. 

 

[RonJeremy]

15 hours ago, CoachX said:

Based on things i've read, Niskanen is more of a locker room leader than Gudas is. And he doesnt bring the on ice liability. In addition to suspensions, Gudas has a habit of being ejected. It also doesnt appear he was much of a leader. Assuming he makes the team, and stays healthy, Morin will pick up the nasty edge lost by Gudas

Swapping Gudas for Niskanen is somewhat of a wash , you lost toughness and you gained some more finesse but , we still have a lot of players on defense that don’t have a lot of NHL experience . We have a lot of talent but , I really thought they were gonna add another veteran in addition to Gudas. In reality you have one dman with over 5 years experience . Meyers has 20 games , Morin has 5. I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised to see Ghost traded for a guy like Trouba. Management keeps talking about making the most of Giroux and Voraceks remaining prime. A defense with this many young players is not realistically getting that far in the playoffs. I love the young talent but we need another veteran if you want to have a real chance to win.

[CoachX]

10 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

Swapping Gudas for Niskanen is somewhat of a wash , you lost toughness and you gained some more finesse but , we still have a lot of players on defense that don’t have a lot of NHL experience . We have a lot of talent but , I really thought they were gonna add another veteran in addition to Gudas. In reality you have one dman with over 5 years experience . Meyers has 20 games , Morin has 5. I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised to see Ghost traded for a guy like Trouba. Management keeps talking about making the most of Giroux and Voraceks remaining prime. A defense with this many young players is not realistically getting that far in the playoffs. I love the young talent but we need another veteran if you want to have a real chance to win.

I don't think it's a wash at all.  The toughness can be replaced by Morin. What  you are getting is not really present in any other player on the roster. Plus you rid yourself of a liability. Technically, this is Ghosts 6 season, but I get your point. It's funny that if a defenseman is young he gets criticized for it, but wingers and centers don't. I think a young D is smart. If they don't go FAR in the playoffs that's fine. At least they got there.  You can't put a price tag on that experience and you can let them grow together.  Think long term, it's not a sprint

[RonJeremy]

7

41 minutes ago, CoachX said:

I don't think it's a wash at all.  The toughness can be replaced by Morin. What  you are getting is not really present in any other player on the roster. Plus you rid yourself of a liability. Technically, this is Ghosts 6 season, but I get your point. It's funny that if a defenseman is young he gets criticized for it, but wingers and centers don't. I think a young D is smart. If they don't go FAR in the playoffs that's fine. At least they got there.  You can't put a price tag on that experience and you can let them grow together.  Think long term, it's not a sprint

It’s a wash in the sense that you lost the most experienced dman and replaced him with another experienced dman, two different styles for sure, but you didn’t add any more experience. It’s not the young defenseman are criticized, its that it’s  much harder to play than the forward position. It really takes several years to be poised and confident and not crack under heavy pressure back there. Yeah Morin can replace the toughness, but he’s played about 5 games and has missed almost 2 seasons with injury. He also has the beat out Haag. There are still a lot of question marks on the blue line. Will Provorov and Ghost bounce back?,  Will Morin win a spot and will he stay healthy? We also need Meyers and Sanheim to take it to the next level. We also have to hope Niskanen bounces back , his numbers have been diminishing.I still believe we will go after another veteran defenseman. There is way too much uncertainty on the blue line. We know it’s  long term, but why do you think Hexy got fired,? he took too long  . Management wants to be in the hunt now, they aren’t making trades and signing FA to be mediocre again. I love the young dmen we have but you are asking an awful lot from a bunch of 22 year old guys. If not around the draft , then before midseason , I expect a trade for a veteran dman. Fletcher wants to make a big jump and make a name for himself, he is not gonna be patient like Hextall. I think we still go after Trouba , but only for the right price.