Rangers Get Trouba

[King Knut]

 

For Poink (also RFA) and the 29th overall (which was originally Wnpg’s for Hayes)

 

Maybe Fletcher was clues in to Trouba wanting an absurd amount of money, but on the whole this feels like him getting straight up outclassed. 

 

This is worrisome for two reasons:

 

-We didn’t get who might be the best d man available and a divisional rival did. 

-is Fletcher more likely now to knee jerk overreact and overspend on a bad deal to “keep up”.  I think he is because everything he’s done so far seems to be for appearance sake more than helping the team. 

[hf101]

We got Niskanen and we have tons of young talent.  The Rangers are the ones trying to keep up. 

 

 

 

 

[mojo1917]

11 minutes ago, King Knut said:

This is worrisome for two reasons:

 

-We didn’t get who might be the best d man available and a divisional rival did. 

-is Fletcher more likely now to knee jerk overreact and overspend on a bad deal to “keep up”.  I think he is because everything he’s done so far seems to be for appearance sake more than helping the team. 

I don't think this is worrisome at all.

We didn't spend one asset on Trouba, that is a win.  We have far more young talent than the Rangers, case and point, Phillipe Myers is already bigger than Trouba. All he needs to do is not **** the bed and he will match Trouba's early career production,  and he is not even the most prized of our young defensive jewels.

 

I rather like the Gudas deal too, Niskanen is a clear upgrade, it is debatable, but not by serious minded people. Look at what Niskanen brings and look what Gudas has done and what his ceiling could be ? I really don't understand the whining about this move either, (I know you are not one of the whiners). 

I think Chuck got a guy that can provide leadership to our young guys and spent an asset of a decent player to get him. Gudas wasn't leading this group, wasn't killing penalties and was not a great skater and makes mostly meh outlet passes. Niskanen is better, even if he is older.

He is the guy Andrew MacDonald should have been for the Flyers. 

I also don't think Fletcher is knee jerking anything so far, I think he has targets in mind and has a clear idea of how he'd like this team to play and the kind of players to make that vision reality. I don't think his vision and Hextall's are too divergent.  I think we'll see something else of larger consequence happen this week. 

I like that all the guys we prize are still Flyers and a guy we all thought made too much money is not. 

 

[AJgoal]

26 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

For Poink (also RFA) and the 29th overall (which was originally Wnpg’s for Hayes)

 

Maybe Fletcher was clues in to Trouba wanting an absurd amount of money, but on the whole this feels like him getting straight up outclassed. 

 

This is worrisome for two reasons:

 

-We didn’t get who might be the best d man available and a divisional rival did. 

-is Fletcher more likely now to knee jerk overreact and overspend on a bad deal to “keep up”.  I think he is because everything he’s done so far seems to be for appearance sake more than helping the team. 

 

Not worrisome at all. Sure, the Flyers could have offered up #11, but there are two bits about this:

 

- The Jets refused to let anyone talk to Trouba's agent. To me, that indicates that they knew he absolutely planned on testing free agency next year. Note that there aren't even any conditional picks attached if Trouba re-signs. He's a one-year rental. Could he end up signing long term in NY? Of course, but signs point to that not being his current intent.

- Short of offering up #11, the Flyers didn't have anything that matched the perceived value of #20 and Pionk. Pionk is a RH puck mover. While he's not that good, in order to match that you'r going with Myers plus likely next year's first. Pionk has very slightly more experience, and a 1 this year is worth more than a 1 next year. So if you're not giving up #11 for a rental, as Fletcher has said, and I agree with, then you weren't beating this offer.

[brelic]

34 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

For Poink (also RFA) and the 29th overall (which was originally Wnpg’s for Hayes)

 

Maybe Fletcher was clues in to Trouba wanting an absurd amount of money, but on the whole this feels like him getting straight up outclassed. 

 

This is worrisome for two reasons:

 

-We didn’t get who might be the best d man available and a divisional rival did. 

-is Fletcher more likely now to knee jerk overreact and overspend on a bad deal to “keep up”.  I think he is because everything he’s done so far seems to be for appearance sake more than helping the team. 

 

Would you have done the 11th OA and Myers for Trouba?

 

Maybe the offer from Fletch was 11th and Hagg, and Winnipeg wasn't interested in Hagg. 

 

And apparently Hayes has interest in going back to NYR - I wonder if his teammate being moved there makes it more enticing for Hayes to just do that. 

 

IF the Flyers are 'unappealing' and 'outclassed,' that's not on Fletch, who's been on the job for 6 months.

 

That's on Hextall. 

 

 

[AJgoal]

Another tidbit:

 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

50 minutes ago, King Knut said:

We didn’t get who might be the best d man available and a divisional rival did. 

 

Uh no. He deserves the Rangers. He will fit right in. No worries mate.

[Podein25]

14 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

While he's not that good

 

Pionk is all of 23 years old. We're not even close to knowing how good he might become. The Jets front office is among the best in the league in assessing talent. They did their homework on Pionk (a guy I happen to have done some research on for my keeper league - alas he was drafted by someone else in the 6th round) and he's not just some throw in name. There's something they really like about his game.

[brelic]

12 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

Another tidbit:

 

 

 

 

Did he have an NMC/NTC? Capfriendly indicates he does not... so how does he get to dictate where he goes?

 

[AJgoal]

1 minute ago, brelic said:

 

Did he have an NMC/NTC? Capfriendly indicates he does not... so how does he get to dictate where he goes?

 

 

He's currently an RFA, and arbitration eligible. All he has to do is file, and he's a UFA after this year. Sure any team could have traded for him and gotten him for one year, but that's going to drive his value way down. Or he could just choose not to sign with the acquiring club.

Edited June 18, 2019 by AJgoal

[brelic]

8 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

 

He's currently an RFA, and arbitration eligible. All he has to do is file, and he's a UFA after this year. Sure any team could have traded for him and gotten him for one year, but that's going to drive his value way down. Or he could just choose not to sign with the acquiring club.

 

But if the Jets weren't allowing teams to talk to his agent, they should be able to trade him anywhere. Maybe the Rangers were the only team willing to take the risk because they felt they could resign him.

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

14 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

Pionk is all of 23 years old. We're not even close to knowing how good he might become. The Jets front office is among the best in the league in assessing talent. They did their homework on Pionk (a guy I happen to have done some research on for my keeper league - alas he was drafted by someone else in the 6th round) and he's not just some throw in name. There's something they really like about his game.

 

I think he will replace Myers he is best suited for the bottom pair you play him there he can succeed.

 

The Rangers didn't and well his numbers are a result. He can move the puck and will help get it out the zone. He is not overly physical and doesn't have the size Trouba had. He is only 6-0 190. Needs to get stronger.

 

I remember watching the title game his last year at MD when they lost in the finals to Denver. He made the nice smart subtle plays move the puck quick.

 

Not sure if the Jets are going to try and play him in the top 4 without a solid partner. If they do he could struggle put him with a guy who can help him with the defense and he can be a solid addition.

 

For lack of a better comparison he reminds me of Matt Carle when he first started in the league. A little less zip on his shot though. But who knows maybe he has a lot of untapped potential the Rangers sure didn't get it out of him.

[AJgoal]

9 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

But if the Jets weren't allowing teams to talk to his agent, they should be able to trade him anywhere. Maybe the Rangers were the only team willing to take the risk because they felt they could resign him.

 

 

 

From what Dreger was quoted as saying on the radio, it sounds as if teams knew 1) that he had a super short list and 2) who was potentially on it. 

[brelic]

9 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

 

From what Dreger was quoted as saying on the radio, it sounds as if teams knew 1) that he had a super short list and 2) who was potentially on it. 

 

Well if that's the case, I'm happy the Flyers didn't pull the trigger.

 

It's feeling like we won't sign Hayes either. 

 

Back to the drawing board.

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

Guess they aren't done...

 

 

[Podein25]

47 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

The Rangers didn't and well his numbers are a result. He can move the puck and will help get it out the zone. He is not overly physical and doesn't have the size Trouba had. He is only 6-0 190. Needs to get stronger.

 

 

Josh Morrissey is 6'0" 194. And the Jets most valuable Dman. The main reason the Jets limped into the playoffs was because he was out for all of March.

 

Pionk's game reminds me very much of Morrissey's

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

I don't think this is worrisome at all.

We didn't spend one asset on Trouba, that is a win.  We have far more young talent than the Rangers, case and point, Phillipe Myers is already bigger than Trouba. All he needs to do is not **** the bed and he will match Trouba's early career production,  and he is not even the most prized of our young defensive jewels.

 

I rather like the Gudas deal too, Niskanen is a clear upgrade, it is debatable, but not by serious minded people. Look at what Niskanen brings and look what Gudas has done and what his ceiling could be ? I really don't understand the whining about this move either, (I know you are not one of the whiners). 

I think Chuck got a guy that can provide leadership to our young guys and spent an asset of a decent player to get him. Gudas wasn't leading this group, wasn't killing penalties and was not a great skater and makes mostly meh outlet passes. Niskanen is better, even if he is older.

He is the guy Andrew MacDonald should have been for the Flyers. 

I also don't think Fletcher is knee jerking anything so far, I think he has targets in mind and has a clear idea of how he'd like this team to play and the kind of players to make that vision reality. I don't think his vision and Hextall's are too divergent.  I think we'll see something else of larger consequence happen this week. 

I like that all the guys we prize are still Flyers and a guy we all thought made too much money is not. 

 

 

1 hour ago, AJgoal said:

 

Not worrisome at all. Sure, the Flyers could have offered up #11, but there are two bits about this:

 

- The Jets refused to let anyone talk to Trouba's agent. To me, that indicates that they knew he absolutely planned on testing free agency next year. Note that there aren't even any conditional picks attached if Trouba re-signs. He's a one-year rental. Could he end up signing long term in NY? Of course, but signs point to that not being his current intent.

- Short of offering up #11, the Flyers didn't have anything that matched the perceived value of #20 and Pionk. Pionk is a RH puck mover. While he's not that good, in order to match that you'r going with Myers plus likely next year's first. Pionk has very slightly more experience, and a 1 this year is worth more than a 1 next year. So if you're not giving up #11 for a rental, as Fletcher has said, and I agree with, then you weren't beating this offer.

 

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Uh no. He deserves the Rangers. He will fit right in. No worries mate.

 

 I think I must not have made my point very well.  My main point is that I'm concerned about what Fletcher's going to do next because all of his moves so far have been about the perception of making a deal before they've been about looking forward to the team's needs.  That said, the Niskanen / Gudas deal was the most beneficial forward thinking move he's made.  

 

Here are my actual thinking points in no particular order and with no particular agenda other than I'm concerned about what Fletcher's going to do next. 

A) Trouba's good.  Let's not pretend he isn't.

B) Trouba might not want to sign anywhere for more than a year.  So be it.

C) I have no problem with the Gudas/Niskanen deal.  Other people here have complained.  I'm not one of them.  It's an upgrade to a veteran who has won more than anyone else currently on this team.  Yes, he's over 30, but he still plays low top pairing, high middle pairing minutes.

D) I don't like having to play Gudas and Trouba that many times a year. 

E) Will Homer and Scott view this as Fletcher getting beat and will that translate to Fletcher doing something drastic and overpaying for something that will hurt the team down the road (aka giving in to Hayes' optimistic demands or paying Panarin something like the Karlsson deal-which he might actually be closer to being worth).  

F) I DO NOT LIKE that Fletcher plans to spend so close to the cap that he's going to buy out AMAC.  I have great interest in Mac not playing on his team, but I want Fletcher to be able to resign Patrick and Lindblom next year. If he buys out mac, then spends to the cap, he'll still have NO CAP ROOM next year, the year after that and the year after that.  

G) The above wouldn't be a problem if he locks in the guys he wants and looks to make no changes in those three years, BUT there are RFA's that he won't be able to resign and I don't want to end up like Tampa and Toronto if Patrick and Lindblom have good years.  As it is, spending to the cap and buying out Mac, he won't have enough to resign them if they have years just like they did last year.  

[OccamsRazor]

3 minutes ago, King Knut said:

A) Trouba's good.  Let's not pretend he isn't.

 

Good. Ok. Not worth the money he wants.

 

5 minutes ago, King Knut said:

If he buys out mac, then spends to the cap, he'll still have NO CAP ROOM next year, the year after that and the year after that.  

 

I think you're worried for nothing here.

 

They are projected to have 39 mill in cap space before they look in the guys they have left to sign this year. None of them will demand a lot. Ivan will cost the most. And unless Patrick has a breakout season this upcoming season he won't cost much either.

 

And if he does that could be a good problem to have. Just worry bout 2019-20 right now.

 

Hayes right now is the hold up. And it will maybe depend on what they do come the draft. It could go down then whatever they are up too they are being proactive it seems. That is exciting and scary as hell at the same time.

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, brelic said:

 

Would you have done the 11th OA and Myers for Trouba?

 

 

No, but that's not my point.  

 

1 hour ago, brelic said:

IF the Flyers are 'unappealing' and 'outclassed,' that's not on Fletch, who's been on the job for 6 months.

 

That's on Hextall. 

 

I haven't read anything recently that makes as little sense as this.

 

 

The Flyers not making the playoffs because Hextall refused to replace Hakstol.  THAT's on Hextall.

 

The Flyers not making great moves yet is entirely on Fletcher and it may also be on Homer.

 

When Homer installed Hextall, Hextall literally told EVERYONE, this is going to take until 2019.  Well, he said five or six years, but that's now.  

 

This is why he was surprised when he got fired because he thought he had that leash. He thought that was the agreement when he got fired.  This is why I believe he got fired for yelling at Scott or calling him names and not for anything he did in his job.

 

But I digress.  The whole tenure of Hextall's time as GM was building toward this summer.  When he took the job, he was eyeing the free agency, draft and trades that would happen this summer.  He set Fletcher up with a beautiful situation of having literally more young talent on D than he could play, tons of cap room, the #1 or #2 rated farm prospect pool, 4 first round draft picks in the last two years, and 35 million bucks in cap space. 

 

Let's complain about Hextall not firing Hakstol.  If you want to complain about Weise and Lehtera, that's on you because they were warm bodies or ransoms to be paid, but go ahead.

 

But if you can't see that Fletcher's been handed one of the most dynamic situations in the NHL that anyone should be able to take FULL advantage of... then I don't know what to tell you.  

 

Sakic's done very well too and the Devils have tanked their way into having a ton of young talent (at least on offense) but for my money taking existing talent pool and projected cap space into account (weighed against the roles needed)  The Avalanche and Flyers are in a class by themselves as far as the ability to make dynamic moves to better themselves this summer.  And that is almost entirely on Hextall.

 

The fact that they didn't make the playoffs because he insisted on keeping that moronic had coach in place However?  THAT's on Hextall too.  

 

 

 

[King Knut]

5 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Good. Ok. Not worth the money he wants.

 

 

I think you're worried for nothing here.

 

They are projected to have 39 mill in cap space before they look in the guys they have left to sign this year. None of them will demand a lot. Ivan will cost the most. And unless Patrick has a breakout season this upcoming season he won't cost much either.

 

And if he does that could be a good problem to have. Just worry bout 2019-20 right now.

 

Hayes right now is the hold up. And it will maybe depend on what they do come the draft. It could go down then whatever they are up too they are being proactive it seems. That is exciting and scary as hell at the same time.

 

After 2012, there is no such thing as worrying for nothing if you're a Flyers fan this time of year.  

 

I'm not kidding when I say that by 2013, I looked at this team and their cap situation and knew that we'd be looking at a team struggling for mediocrity until 2019 or so.  So yeah... i've been waiting a long time to see what the team does THIS SUMMER.  I want it to be good, but I want to feel like it'll also be smart.

 

My worries about next year are built entirely around A) spending to the cap, B) buying out AMac (it goes away if they don't buy him out) and C) Patrick and Lindblom not sucking this year.

 

The whole idea of bringing in the 2C is to free up Patrick to sort out his game. If they bring in that 2C, then Lindblom will either benefit from that shift in assignments with Patrick or benefit from playing with that more experienced 2C.   Both players SHOULD have better seasons.  What if they score 50-60 points?   

 

That would be great, right?  Except if Fletcher spends to the cap... can't pay them.

 

I like that he's being aggressive, but nothing I'm seeing looks like an actual strategy.  It looks like he has the positions he wants and he's just trying to get them filled any way he can without any other considerations.

 

[tucson83]

what's more concerning is that the star players not wanting to come here because of what hextall did and didnt do? havent heard anything about the fa's wanting to come here, sounds like hayes doesnt want to sign here, trouba doesnt want to sign here.

[AJgoal]

28 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

 

 

 I think I must not have made my point very well.  My main point is that I'm concerned about what Fletcher's going to do next because all of his moves so far have been about the perception of making a deal before they've been about looking forward to the team's needs.  

 

Well, I agree on that, and you seem to have been right. Holy hell.

 

https://twitter.com/NHLFlyers/status/1141010222603018240

@NHLFlyers: BREAKING: The #Flyers have acquired defenseman Justin Braun from San Jose in exchange for a second-round pick in this year's draft (41st overall) and third-round pick in the 2020 NHL Draft.

[OccamsRazor]

1 minute ago, AJgoal said:

 

Well, I agree on that, and you seem to have been right. Holy hell.

 

https://twitter.com/NHLFlyers/status/1141010222603018240

@NHLFlyers: BREAKING: The #Flyers have acquired defenseman Justin Braun from San Jose in exchange for a second-round pick in this year's draft (41st overall) and third-round pick in the 2020 NHL Draft.

 

WTF?

 

I knew I shouldn't have opened this while I was at the gym...

[King Knut]

2 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

 

Well, I agree on that, and you seem to have been right. Holy hell.

 

https://twitter.com/NHLFlyers/status/1141010222603018240

@NHLFlyers: BREAKING: The #Flyers have acquired defenseman Justin Braun from San Jose in exchange for a second-round pick in this year's draft (41st overall) and third-round pick in the 2020 NHL Draft.

 

Wait... buy why?  

 

He's trading Ghost for Marner or something.  

 

 

[King Knut]

1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

WTF?

 

I knew I shouldn't have opened this while I was at the gym...

 

He's got to be trading Ghost and a Fwd Prospect or the first rounder for something big on Offense.