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McKenzie: Hayes signed - 7 yrs / 50 milion

Do you like this signing?  

41 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you like the terms that the Flyers gave Hayes? (7 yrs / ~50 million)

    • Yes - Best deal the Flyers could come up with
      1
    • Yes - Glad he is a Flyers but signed for too much
      23
    • Hell No! - Too much money. What is Fletcher doing to us???
      17


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1 hour ago, Podein25 said:

 

Please explain "Wawa"

image.png.638a830377050830b978a60c33cf057a.png

 

corner street convenience store...usually loaded with "deals"

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10 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

image.png.638a830377050830b978a60c33cf057a.png

 

corner street convenience store...usually loaded with "deals"

 

Thanks. This is more about Philly geography than I need to know really. 

 

Like, I already know where the Walt Whitman bridge is right?

 

Plus, I vaguely know where there is, or was at least, a large concrete abutment near Somerdale, NJ. So, basically I have my Camden County geography all sorted!!

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3 hours ago, AJgoal said:

He's being paid to be a core member of the team, when he arguably might not even be playing center for them in a couple of seasons. 

If that's the case, you don't think he will still be a top 6 player in a couple of years?  I get that maybe he moves to wing if Patrick improves, but I don't think that means he's not going to be a top contributor in a couple of years.  Four/five years down the line, yeah, it could be a problem.  But thinking he's not going to be a core player in only couple of seasons seems a bit out of whack to me.

 

3 hours ago, AJgoal said:

We already know, per Charlie O'Connor, that the Flyers and Sanheim were talking long term, then the Flyers moved to a bridge deal in order to keep the cost down because they found themselves low on cap space.

Who is Charlie's source for this?  Has this been reported elsewhere?  I kinda question stuff like this, particularly since there was that whole episode where some of his podcast mates (and Charlie, to a degree) were running wild with the whole "Hakstole fired/Quenneville Hired" story in the middle of the season.

 

3 hours ago, AJgoal said:

Again, I don't think I've seen ANYONE argue that Hayes won't help the Flyers this season - I argued in favor of acquiring him earlier this summer, back when I thought he'd come in at 5x5.

I don't think $5/5 was ever a realistic scenario for anyone to pay Hayes.  He was paid more than that last season.  Marquee 27 year old UFAs (which has was, given the dearth of UFA centers) typically don't get less than what they were paid the previous year.  I think a reasonable projection for him would have been $6m/6 years, possibly as low as $5.75m.  As soon as the Flyers traded for his rights, I knew he'd get the 7th year, but didn't think he'd go much higher than $6m (sadly, I was way wrong about that).  But I think a cap hit closer to $5m/year simply wasn't realistic.

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2 hours ago, AJgoal said:

 

Sure. And in a couple years they have to revisit them again. Bridge deals are fine for a bit, but they can kill you too.

 

 

All three are still on their ELC's so they'd still be RFA when next summer's contract is up.  I'm not a big Fletcher fan thus far, and I'm the one complaining about Hayes' contract (though I like the player)  for this very reason, but I do think there's a way to pull it off.

 

Right now, I think the NMC is the most immediate danger in the Hayes Contract (It'll require him to take a protection slot in the expansion draft, which will be their second forward needing automatic protection.  They could convince Giroux to waive expecting that Seattle won't want to take on an $8million contract that expires in a year, but that's risky because he could still be quite good.

 

After that hurdle, if Myers, Patrick, Lindblom, Farabee, Radcliffe, Frost, Sanheim, etc work out at all, Fletcher's going to have to move someone that will be worth keeping.  

 

he can bridge the first three, but likely not for more than 3 years.  Sanheim's likely to require a big payday in two years (Niskanen expiring will help) and the rest will likely be coming off ELC's about that time.  So the best case scenario is that they haven't really proven themselves great yet and can be bridged too... which let's face it, isn't really a best case scenario.

 

ON THE BRIGHT SIDE, this plus all the vets currently in place make for more than an active roster can hold, so if they all look good, Fletcher will have have to move someone anyway just to play them all.  

 

2 hours ago, AJgoal said:

They don't need to though. All they need is to have $3-5 million seasons, and you're in trouble.

 

If he spends to the cap this year, fletcher can essentially pull together $9million in cap space next summer but doing nothing.  So they can have $3million dollar seasons each.  

 

I wish he hadn't bought out MacDonald or he'd have $10million and change without trying.  But I guess if he'd just waived him to LHV, we couldn't afford Braun this year.  Which is... who knows what the hell that is actually, Braun's only going to help if Fletcher moves Hagg.

 

As it is Braun, Elliott, Gudas and Hagg all come off the books next year. 

Hagg is technically RFA, but Fletcher won't be able to afford to re-up him, even for what he'd get in arbitration.  

Whether he gets anything for Hagg in the meantime or not us a different matter (it would have to be picks or as a sweetener in a bigger deal that sends another Flyer elsewhere as well).

 

If Fletch needs more than that he'll have to move Niskanen (provided he can pull off a deal with one of his NTC preferred teams).

If he needs more than that... then they're in bigger trouble. 

 

Worst case scenario, he has to actually Bridge Deal Myers or Patrick like the Maple Leafs did.  After next season, he's going to have a world of pain figuring out how to not get someone amazing swiped by Seattle.  

 

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3 hours ago, Podein25 said:

 

Please explain "Wawa"

 

Wawa’s the Indian lady that lives just outside of Conshohocken. 

 

(4:30)

 

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2 hours ago, pilldoc said:

image.png.638a830377050830b978a60c33cf057a.png

 

corner street convenience store...usually loaded with "deals"

 

Gas, hoagies and coffeetopia!

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1 hour ago, vis said:

If that's the case, you don't think he will still be a top 6 player in a couple of years?  I get that maybe he moves to wing if Patrick improves, but I don't think that means he's not going to be a top contributor in a couple of years.  Four/five years down the line, yeah, it could be a problem.  But thinking he's not going to be a core player in only couple of seasons seems a bit out of whack to me.

 

Who is Charlie's source for this?  Has this been reported elsewhere?  I kinda question stuff like this, particularly since there was that whole episode where some of his podcast mates (and Charlie, to a degree) were running wild with the whole "Hakstole fired/Quenneville Hired" story in the middle of the season.

 

I don't think $5/5 was ever a realistic scenario for anyone to pay Hayes.  He was paid more than that last season.  Marquee 27 year old UFAs (which has was, given the dearth of UFA centers) typically don't get less than what they were paid the previous year.  I think a reasonable projection for him would have been $6m/6 years, possibly as low as $5.75m.  As soon as the Flyers traded for his rights, I knew he'd get the 7th year, but didn't think he'd go much higher than $6m (sadly, I was way wrong about that).  But I think a cap hit closer to $5m/year simply wasn't realistic.

 

 

Charlie and that whole squad lost me last year.  It’s a shame because I really enjoyed them for a while, but they all got a little out of control with the angry opinions reported as unassailable fact (but we’re nonetheless proven wrong).  There was no longer any grown up in the room.  They were all likely just crabby because of how the season was going, but I don’t need to waste my time listening to drunken idiots ranting.  I can get that anywhere there’s a tv and beer.  

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3 hours ago, AJgoal said:

 

It's like Tim Hortons, but with candy, hoagies, and gas.

 

Timmy has those things too sometimes.  

 

They’re also just one example of the kind of local businesses with billboards and marketing promotions that give players fairly lucrative endorsement deals (potentially more lucrative than in smaller markets or non-hockey towns like LA and NY). 

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3 hours ago, vis said:

But I think a cap hit closer to $5m/year simply wasn't realistic.

 

I too wanted 5 years i will say that but yeah 5 mill per was never an option in fact i said i would go 7-8 mill per for less term.

 

Sure i didn't get my wish for the 5 years...and i also knew realistically for one of the top centers on the market, who was fresh off of just turning 27 in May it more than likely would have to be more term...well here they are and they got the guy they wanted. But for around the price i was ok with...well there is little to be mad at except hey what happens in 2021-22???

 

But i am not going there right now.

 

Hell for all we know Trump could lead us to war with Iran or pick a country by then and it won't even matter much. And no i am not turning this into a political thread just bringing up there are more pressing concerns right now.

 

And at today's going rate will a 30 year old center (by then he can submit a 12 team no trade to clause) making 7 mill for 4 years be the hardest thing to move??? I say no.

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2 hours ago, King Knut said:

Charlie and that whole squad lost me last year.  It’s a shame because I really enjoyed them for a while, but they all got a little out of control with the angry opinions reported as unassailable fact (but we’re nonetheless proven wrong).  There was no longer any grown up in the room.

I'm with you.  I had more or less started listening to the podcast and started to appreciate Charlie's POV of things, even thought I think he's too heavy on the analytics.  But that whole Quenneville fiasco was brutal and the tone of the podcast during the year was very "whiney".

 

2 hours ago, King Knut said:

They were all likely just crabby because of how the season was going, but I don’t need to waste my time listening to drunken idiots ranting.  I can get that anywhere there’s a tv and beer.  

Or right here on this board!!  (I include myself in that statement.)

 

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21 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I too wanted 5 years i will say that but yeah 5 mill per was never an option in fact i said i would go 7-8 mill per for less term.

Yeah, I didn't have much of an issue with term given his age.   But that term at that cap hit is a tough pill to swallow.

 

21 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

And at today's going rate will a 30 year old center (by then he can submit a 12 team no trade to clause) making 7 mill for 4 years be the hardest thing to move??? I say no.

Possibly.  The NTC (12 team no trade list) makes that a little bit of a challenge.  However, his contract has little lower cap hit the last two years, of which $1.25m is a signing bonus which might make him a little attractive to teams willing to take on cap for a lower salary.  Of course, those are probably the types of teams Hayes will have on his no-trade list.

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, vis said:

If that's the case, you don't think he will still be a top 6 player in a couple of years?  I get that maybe he moves to wing if Patrick improves, but I don't think that means he's not going to be a top contributor in a couple of years.  Four/five years down the line, yeah, it could be a problem.  But thinking he's not going to be a core player in only couple of seasons seems a bit out of whack to me.

 

It really depends on what the team needs honestly. Hayes is not a scorer by any stretch. He's a fairly responsible center who averages in the 40s for pts per year. In many ways, he's sort of like a lesser version of Couts. That isn't a terrible slot for a center who tends to play defensively a fair bit, but it's not really what you want from your wingers, who are typically expected to put the puck in the net more regularly.

 

If he gets supplanted by Patrick or Frost, it seems more likely he will be demoted to the third line. As it stands, he's really a career 2-3C anyway, so that's no big deal. It's pretty much exactly what he should be doing. To me, the whole point of signing him at all would be to light a fire under Patrick's a** and push him to live up to expectations.

 

For the record, I happen to think it'll work too. I think Patrick has more to offer than he's shown, and I think better coaching will make that apparent over the course of this next season.

Edited by elmatus
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48 minutes ago, elmatus said:

To me, the whole point of signing him at all would be to light a fire under Patrick's a** and push him to live up to expectations.

 

For the record, I happen to think it'll work too. I think Patrick has more to offer than he's shown, and I think better coaching will make that apparent over the course of this next season.

 

I see a lot of wisdom here.

Patrick when he would get going showed flashes of game dominating ability.

He's going to need to learn how to pick his spots for playing physically a little better until he gets his 'man weight" on him. 

Already though, not many dmen in the league like the sight of 19 with pace and the puck on his stick coming through the neutral zone at them.

I think with new coaching we'll see the player  I've been expecting. 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Already though, not many dmen in the league like the sight of 19 with pace and the puck on his stick coming through the neutral zone at them.

 

Yes consistency. He makes smart plays one i'll never forget is in the stadium series where instead of quickly getting the puck up ice he circles gives the troops a chance to regroup gets to mid ice and passes the puck back to Giroux for the game winner in OT. Epic!

 

 

I hope this staff can't get him to get to a point where he needs to be....to be able to roll 4 lines would be huge.

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2 hours ago, elmatus said:

 

It really depends on what the team needs honestly. Hayes is not a scorer by any stretch. He's a fairly responsible center who averages in the 40s for pts per year. In many ways, he's sort of like a lesser version of Couts. That isn't a terrible slot for a center who tends to play defensively a fair bit, but it's not really what you want from your wingers, who are typically expected to put the puck in the net more regularly.

 

If he gets supplanted by Patrick or Frost, it seems more likely he will be demoted to the third line. As it stands, he's really a career 2-3C anyway, so that's no big deal. It's pretty much exactly what he should be doing. To me, the whole point of signing him at all would be to light a fire under Patrick's a** and push him to live up to expectations.

 

For the record, I happen to think it'll work too. I think Patrick has more to offer than he's shown, and I think better coaching will make that apparent over the course of this next season.

So if Hayes is destined to deteriorate, whats about Coots?

 

He could just as easily get replaced by an up and coming center. Just remember what he was a few seasons ago

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19 minutes ago, CoachX said:

So if Hayes is destined to deteriorate, whats about Coots?

 

I know right Hayes is only 7 months older...their DOOMED i tell ya!!!

 

DOOMED!!!!

 

:PopcornSmiley2:

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42 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I know right Hayes is only 7 months older...their DOOMED i tell ya!!!

 

DOOMED!!!!

 

:PopcornSmiley2:

 

 

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3 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

 

 

Got to love a Perfect Circle and Flyer thread together!!!!

 

So sir i leave you with one of my favorites (Deftones and Maynard)  however not popular ones...and the Flyers don't need...NO PASSENGERS!!!!!!

 

 

Off to the gym!!!!!!! Chat with ya later!!!!!!!!

 

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7 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Got to love a Perfect Circle and Flyer thread together!!!!

 

So sir i leave you with one of my favorites (Deftones and Maynard)  however not popular ones...and the Flyers don't need...NO PASSENGERS!!!!!!

 

 

Off to the gym!!!!!!! Chat with ya later!!!!!!!!

 

 

Love both those bands! 

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1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I know right Hayes is only 7 months older...their DOOMED i tell ya!!!

 

DOOMED!!!!

 

:PopcornSmiley2:

 

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22 hours ago, Podein25 said:

 

Please explain "Wawa"

It's the sound people in the Philadelphia area and other areas up and down the East Coast make when they can't find one...especially during hoagie fest. Waaaaaaaaaawaaaaaaa!

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, CoachX said:

So if Hayes is destined to deteriorate, whats about Coots?

 

He could just as easily get replaced by an up and coming center. Just remember what he was a few seasons ago

 

You think Hayes will deteriorate? It's possible, but I think he's still young enough to maintain his level of play for some years yet. He may have a bad contract, but he's not a bad player. He should be a solid 2-3C for at least three or four years I would think. 

 

What I'm saying is that he's not really the kind of guy you just move to the wing if he gets supplanted by a more skilled center. It seems more likely he would slide down to 3C if that happens. Patrick or Frost both have top six potential. Frost I could actually see get moved to the wing, but Patrick I don't think so.

 

If he pans out as advertized, Patrick really should be our 2C by the end of this season. I like to think he will pan out with new coaching to give him life.

 

I expect we'll start the season with something like:

 

Giroux / Couts / TK

JVR / Hayes / Voracek

Lindblom / Patrick / ???

 

But by the end of the season, we may very well have:

 

Giroux / Couts / TK

JVR / Patrick / Voracek

Lindblom / Hayes / ???

 

Which would be a great thing really, since it means Patrick would finally be growing into his own. I happen to think new coaching will help him become that guy, or at least I want to believe that! I want to believe we didn't actually get the worst 2nd overall pick of the last decade, and that he just needed some time to find his game. He stands to benefit from new coaching more than anyone not named Provorov imo.

 

It's also possible they would keep Patrick and Lindblom on the third if it seems to be working out well, and then we just get three scoring lines. It depends on whether the coaching staff wants to spread the scoring across three lines or make two more lethal ones. I don't know what AV would choose, but it should be interesting to see.

Edited by elmatus
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1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I know right Hayes is only 7 months older...their DOOMED i tell ya!!!

 

DOOMED!!!!

 

:PopcornSmiley2:

 

Well Hayes costs 75% more, is signed for 4 more years than Coots and has a NMC for the first four years and a NTC for the rest.  The good news is that if Giroux is too old to really earn big bucks in three years, resigning Coots (if he's still in the peak zone) can happen with some of G's money.

 

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26 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Well Hayes costs 75% more, is signed for 4 more years than Coots and has a NMC for the first four years and a NTC for the rest.

 

Is it too early to ask where Kev is these days and what is training regimen is? 'Cause imma gonna keep asking.

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, elmatus said:

I want to believe we didn't actually get the worst 2nd overall pick of the last decade

 

Statistically, we kinda did. #2 overall picks through their first 2 NHL seasons... 

 

 

2007-2017.JPG

Edited by brelic

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