Buffalo Rick Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, FD19372 said: No, but you should be. How is the Skinner deal worse than the Hayes deal? Skinner is better than Hayes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FD19372 Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 1 minute ago, Hockey Junkie said: How is the Skinner deal worse than the Hayes deal? Skinner is better than Hayes Ummm...when was the last time the Sabres made the playoffs? My friend asked me to ask you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 44 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: Sure i guess if you are gunning for that #1 farm system trophy he did well....he couldn't even find them a solid NHL starter goalie much less get them into the playoffs and win a series...but hey at least they had a lot of cap space they just wasted last year what like 4 or 5 million down the drain...a lot of draft picks and no wins to show for it. Nope give me back some excitement in my life i want to watch hockey in April, May and June and i want the Flyers to be the team i am watching.....the other way and i will be retired and not able to even afford to follow these guys....Ron's way was a slow rolling turd up hill...it's about the playoffs you have to get in to be able to win first. Agree to a point ...this team has so many needs it was like starting over from scratch. With the idiotic contracts of Bryz and VLC there was not a lot or wriggle room until you could shed some of these ridiculous signings. I am not holding Hexy blameless by no stretch of the imagination, but this team has been down right putrid for years now. You mention playoffs. Well the Flyers have made the PO in recent memory (14, 16, 18). Yup and how did that turn out....1 and done. Not exciting to me when you get bumped in the 1st round. They simply were not built for a long playoff stretch. This team needed an overhaul and believe it or not it does start with your prospects on the farm team. This team had zero decent prospects until recent history. Even building your dream house you have to start with a solid foundation and that takes time. Agree ...Hexy's plan is/was slow and the fans wanted more sooner. I get it. Lack of cap management and hiring/firing of coaches is what did this team in. Hexy had to undo a lot of Homer's mistakes first. I DO believe Hexy made a mistake bringing in Hak. That is on him. I get you want more....BUT there has to be a fine balance between drafting top prospects and developing them properly with coaching. I will add one more thing...you DO NEED a respectable farm system so you can acquire appropriate assets when needed. The Flyers a few years ago were graded with one of the worst farm systems in NHL. Kind of hard to make moves when no one wants what you are selling. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 1 minute ago, ruxpin said: Still need a backup/tandem goalie and I'd like to add a RWer to my wishlist. What if they stay with what they have for now...not saying they should but just pointing it out. Giroux - Couturier - Konecny JVR - Hayes - Voracek Lindblom - Patrick - Hartman Raffl - Laughton - Bailey ------------------------------------------- Aube Kubel Provorov - Niskanen Sanheim - Braun Ghost - Myers ------------------------------------------- Morin - Hagg Hart ????? That is still much improved roster in my mind. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted June 19, 2019 Author Share Posted June 19, 2019 3 minutes ago, Hockey Junkie said: How is the Skinner deal worse than the Hayes deal? Skinner is better than Hayes Skinner got $9M, right? I forget how many years. We talked about this. It's too much and too long, but that's what he was going to get on the market and the Sabres would have been foolish to let him go. If you're going to sit at the grownups table, these are the things you have to do. As a result, it's a good signing that will probably present some headaches in the last 3 years or so. Just to clarify: I don't have ANY problem with the Skinner signing. Hopefully the Sabres get a cup out of it at some point before the headache begins later. It's an interesting comparison to Hayes. I think he's another case where there's benefit short term and it will be a headache the last 3 years or so. I think he is also getting too much for too long but, again, it is what the market is. People here bitch about Hextall "not doing anything" and then are complaining about deals like this (there are some here NOT complaining about Hextall but are complaining about this--and vice versa--I understand those people). But you can't complain about Hextall not doing anything and then complain about the money/term on this. It's the cost of doing something. You can complain about Hextall and just not like Hayes. I get that. But back to your comparison of Skinner and Hayes. I kind of want to say that Skinner is more than $2M/yr better than Hayes, but it's a hard comparison because they're different players. I think Skinner will probably sell more tickets because of his higher production numbers. So, there's that. But Hayes does things that Skinner does not. Faceoffs, PK, etc. I don't know. Both are higher and longer than what they objectively merit. I actually like Hayes and what he brings, but I get the comparison. I think probably Skinner is overpaid slightly less than Hayes is now overpaid. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 4 minutes ago, pilldoc said: I get you want more....BUT there has to be a fine balance between drafting top prospects and developing them properly with coaching. I will add one more thing...you DO NEED a respectable farm system so you can acquire appropriate assets when needed. The Flyers a few years ago were graded with one of the worst farm systems in NHL. Kind of hard to make moves when no one wants what you are selling. Sure i get and they have it now. So let's start the winning again soon they are going to run out of room for all these kids. So folks are up in arms that Chucks moved a 2nd and a 3rd...to try and nudge them forward to the playoffs. I'm good with that. He paid market value for his 2nd line center and add vets to the blueline. So they are ready to focus on the playoffs again. Who cares if they have a great farm system if they don't win...i am damn tired of but a few years away from being a few years away. So let's see how this goes before we (not you per se) all start claiming it a failure. 8 minutes ago, pilldoc said: Well the Flyers have made the PO in recent memory (14, 16, 18). Yup and how did that turn out....1 and done. Not exciting to me when you get bumped in the 1st round. Bingo....Hextall had 7 playoff wins....Holmgren had 7 playoff series wins in his 5 years. So how can we say one way is really better than the other.....we still have no Cups. I will say this Holmgren time was exciting as hell and i want the excitement back...i want my team in the dance i don't care how. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted June 19, 2019 Author Share Posted June 19, 2019 7 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: What if they stay with what they have for now...not saying they should but just pointing it out. Giroux - Couturier - Konecny JVR - Hayes - Voracek Lindblom - Patrick - Hartman Raffl - Laughton - Bailey ------------------------------------------- Aube Kubel Provorov - Niskanen Sanheim - Braun Ghost - Myers ------------------------------------------- Morin - Hagg Hart ????? That is still much improved roster in my mind. It's definitely a much improved roster. From where I sit, it's actually vastly improved and we really only gave up Gudas (I guess McDud, too, depending upon how one views it. For me, it's like having a mole removed). I think i don't like Bailey there. He's an AHLer. I'd rather give AK a shot. But if you can make a move for a 3RW I might do it. The thing with Hayes makes me think Rubstov and Vorobyov should probably consider keeping their bags packed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 1 minute ago, ruxpin said: I'd rather give NAK a shot. Me too since he isn't waiver exempt i do not want to give this kid to a rival. I would rather trade him before waiving him. He was a 2nd round pick (48th) if you can't find room for him you should be able to get at bare minimum a 3rd for him. He just turned 23 this past May. Someone will take him but i think he will get a look this upcoming season. He is sound 5 on 5 and has a nasty edge to him brings some grit to the 4th line that is needed. But i think they will sign a RW for the 3rd and let Hartman plug the 4th RW spot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 15 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: What if they stay with what they have for now...not saying they should but just pointing it out. Giroux - Couturier - Konecny JVR - Hayes - Voracek Lindblom - Patrick - Hartman Raffl - Laughton - Bailey ------------------------------------------- Aube Kubel Provorov - Niskanen Sanheim - Braun Ghost - Myers ------------------------------------------- Morin - Hagg Hart ????? That is still much improved roster in my mind. Absolutely ....especially on the blue line. Maybe just maybe the defense will hold up enough so Hart does not feel he needs to bail them out every time they make a mistake ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 2 hours ago, Podein25 said: So if the market was so out of whack that it was Hayes for 10 years at $10M would you still be saying he had no choice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 2 hours ago, Podein25 said: Agreed. At the very least he better learn to skate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 @OccamsRazor I love you too buddy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 1 hour ago, radoran said: With all due respect, that's nonsense. Skinner, Kane and JVR are multiple time 30-goal scorers. O'Reilly is one of the best faceoff men in the game and hasn't had less than 55 points in 6 years, has scored 20+ in five of the past six years. Hayes had 50+ points once - 54 points last year - and 20+ goals once. In five years. Skinner, Kane and O'Reilly all benefitted from Buffalo needing to overpay. If your thought is that the Flyers also need to overpay, that's worrisome from where I sit. Nelson is a good comparison - and $1M cheaper. Again, hope this works out. Skeptical... I don't know, it seems in line with other contracts, and of course taking into account that free agency for 2C is limited to one, basically. Was there an overpayment? Probably. But to which degree is it an overpayment? By $1M at most, probably more like $500-750k. I would agree that goals are better than assists. You need great passers too, but at the end of the day, you need the guys that put the puck in the net (bonus old board reference) moreso. So yeah, those contracts are probably better value (though let's give Hayes a chance to see what he can do with Voracek and JVR). So, an overpayment, yes. But to say that the comparison is nonsense is hyperbole. Does that mean we're Buffalo-lite? Maybe, and it *is* worrisome. We're a middling team the past 5-7 years. Philly is not a top destination. I think Fletch made a number of good moves to change that. But, like I said in a previous post, I agree with others that Fletch doesn't seem to be a great negotiator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted June 19, 2019 Author Share Posted June 19, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Podein25 said: I understand this line of argument, it gets used all the time, but its simply not true, you always have a choice. Holmgren did not have to sign Bryz to that contract. The obvious choices are: be patient, i) wait for the young guys; ii) trade; iii) sign a European FA (I know, not great). So if the market was so out of whack that it was Hayes for 10 years at $10M would you still be saying he had no choice? Where does it stop? Kevin Hayes is not worth $50M on his best day. Unbelievable. Okay, theoretically I agree. But honestly, were the bolded choices legitimately available to Fletcher? I mean on a personal level. Because "be patient, wait for young guys, trade for/sign someone who costs nothing" got Hextall fired. Yeah, I know, coach and all that. But even on this very board you can see Hextall getting beat up for "doing nothing" or rolling a turd uphill, etc. Not paying market value, shopping at Dollar General for plugins, got us Weal, Weise, etc. I know that's the type of move he had available to him due to cap issues. Just saying. Hextall did a great job with the farm system. We're about there. I really think Hextall thought we'd be there this past year, which is why he spent on JVR (that and probably was up against the same wall as Fletcher currently finds himself). But I do think JVR was supposed to be a move forward and then add finishing touches this summer. If you're intending the above as "this is what the organization should do" I get it. I think you'd see further revolt among the fan base if told, "we signed/traded for XYZ castoff to fill in until [insert name] is ready. Have no fear, only 3 more years!" But I'm hesitant to criticize Fletcher individually here because I'm pretty sure he's at gun point from management above and from a marketing/fill-the-seats standpoint. By the way, if the market was so out of whack that Hayes for 10 years at $10M was actually the going rate, then yeah, I would still be saying he had no choice. I also think the league was about to crash under its own stupidity. Edited June 19, 2019 by ruxpin 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, Podein25 said: @OccamsRazor I love you too buddy stop sucking up.....i have sold your spot of the bandwagon to hockey junkie....you lose! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 31 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: Sure i get and they have it now. So let's start the winning again soon they are going to run out of room for all these kids. So folks are up in arms that Chucks moved a 2nd and a 3rd...to try and nudge them forward to the playoffs. I'm good with that. He paid market value for his 2nd line center and add vets to the blueline. So they are ready to focus on the playoffs again. Who cares if they have a great farm system if they don't win...i am damn tired of but a few years away from being a few years away. So let's see how this goes before we (not you per se) all start claiming it a failure. Bingo....Hextall had 7 playoff wins....Holmgren had 7 playoff series wins in his 5 years. So how can we say one way is really better than the other.....we still have no Cups. I will say this Holmgren time was exciting as hell and i want the excitement back...i want my team in the dance i don't care how. I would like to buy you a drink Well said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Rick Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 32 minutes ago, ruxpin said: Skinner got $9M, right? I forget how many years. We talked about this. It's too much and too long, but that's what he was going to get on the market and the Sabres would have been foolish to let him go. If you're going to sit at the grownups table, these are the things you have to do. As a result, it's a good signing that will probably present some headaches in the last 3 years or so. Just to clarify: I don't have ANY problem with the Skinner signing. Hopefully the Sabres get a cup out of it at some point before the headache begins later. It's an interesting comparison to Hayes. I think he's another case where there's benefit short term and it will be a headache the last 3 years or so. I think he is also getting too much for too long but, again, it is what the market is. People here bitch about Hextall "not doing anything" and then are complaining about deals like this (there are some here NOT complaining about Hextall but are complaining about this--and vice versa--I understand those people). But you can't complain about Hextall not doing anything and then complain about the money/term on this. It's the cost of doing something. You can complain about Hextall and just not like Hayes. I get that. But back to your comparison of Skinner and Hayes. I kind of want to say that Skinner is more than $2M/yr better than Hayes, but it's a hard comparison because they're different players. I think Skinner will probably sell more tickets because of his higher production numbers. So, there's that. But Hayes does things that Skinner does not. Faceoffs, PK, etc. I don't know. Both are higher and longer than what they objectively merit. I actually like Hayes and what he brings, but I get the comparison. I think probably Skinner is overpaid slightly less than Hayes is now overpaid. Dont get me wrong now. I always thought Hayes was the biggest threat the Rangers had. It did not carry over into the series vs the Blues. The Blues were able to shut him down, how much due to Binnington? Not sure. But Hayes is good and so is Skinner. My gut is both teams over paid. But the Sabres had little choice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, CoachX said: I would like to buy you a drink Pappy Van Winkle aged 15 years if you please... go Flyers!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted June 19, 2019 Author Share Posted June 19, 2019 1 minute ago, Hockey Junkie said: Dont get me wrong now. I always thought Hayes was the biggest threat the Rangers had. It did not carry over into the series vs the Blues. The Blues were able to shut him down, how much due to Binnington? Not sure. But Hayes is good and so is Skinner. My gut is both teams over paid. But the Sabres had little choice. Yeah. I think there's some debate here on the board about whether the Flyers had a choice. I think they had more of a choice than the Sabres did. I agree the Sabres almost had to. And the other difference is if the Sabres didn't sign him they were actually losing a lot. The Flyers weren't really losing anything here if they let Hayes walk (other than a 5th round pick). Just would have had to go with another plan. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 3 minutes ago, Hockey Junkie said: I always thought Hayes was the biggest threat the Rangers had. Exactly and now they have to go out and find a 2nd line center because Ryan Strome isn't that guy.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmatus Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 34 minutes ago, FD19372 said: Now I read that Eklund FWIW says we're in on Marner. Things are heating up. Seems too crazy to be true, but that is exactly the kind of trade I would consider notable. 1 hour ago, mojo1917 said: @elmatus Imagine not playing 8 goaltenders last year and the big free agent signing didn't miss the first 2.5 months of the season from a freak injury. Or imagine one of those 8 goalies proved to "not suck" for I don't know 3 months, do we still think last year's team was a dumpster fire? I don't i think last year's team was as bad as they showed. I also know Gudas' ceiling was reached and it wasn't very high, I know Macdonald was a passenger and not worth his contract and the pk was dreadful for much of the year. Dead wood is out, pk players are in, the defense is improved vastly imo. I think the surprise last year was the poor result and I expect a substantial leap forward with this roster. That is a lot of ifs mate. I do very much hope you're right, and of course it's entirely possible that you are. I think we may be ranking some of the changes a bit differently, which would account for some of the difference in opinion. I will say this, the single biggest change of most importance in my view is the coaching. That alone could make a tremendous difference with this team. If this team does see a huge leap forward, I don't think it'll be because of these recent acquisitions -- it would be 9/10th because of the coaching change. Hart is an important second. As you say, we didn't get good goaltending for much of last season. In my view, bad goaltending just isn't enough to not even make the playoffs. Out of all the teams that make the playoffs in a given year, only a few really have elite level goaltending. A few others may have reasonable goaltending. And then there are always a couple who make it despite their goaltending. Sure, they may not make a cup run (though plenty have), but they at least make it to the playoffs. As far as the off season additions go, I think it's hard to judge those until we see what the coaching staff does with them. Is Braun a top pairing guy? He might be. This is the part I really don't know, as I don't watch him much. If he is though, I'll be curious to see who's riding next to him. Honestly, next to the coaching change, Braun is the player I'll be most interested in seeing come October. I'm kind of bummed that he's really just a rental, but for this year, he should be an improvement if he can be that minute-munching steady-hand kind of guy. Hayes is a reasonable acquisitions. We needed a 2C, and we got one. That Hayes contract will almost certainly become a problem in the future, but as far as next season goes, we got probably the best 2C option we were realistically going to get. I'm fine with that. Folks have talked about him as a good PKer, which is also something we clearly need. So yeah, I'm on board with this. The contract will suck, but I'm on board for the time being. Niskanen's a reasonable pick up as well. It's a shame we're not getting Niskanen from 4-5 years ago, but hopefully this guy can at least shore up 2nd pairing duties and help some of the kids grow a bit. His contract is fine too. Is he better than Gudas? That I don't know. He doesn't really have to be though. He just has to be as good on the ice and hopefully better off the ice. If he can do that, it could be a solid add. I don't know that he'd play the PK, but it's possible I suppose. He's not really a defensive juggernaut, so I figure Braun and Provo are the more likely candidates, but who knows? So yeah, the team should be improved in 2019-20. My previous post was noting the jump from non-PO team to contender as being a big leap. Personally, I'll be content if this team at least makes the playoffs. I'm not expecting miracles at this point, but at least give me some playoff hockey to care about. If they can win a round, I'll be super happy. Anything beyond that would make me ecstatic, as it would seem like one hell of a leap. #PlayoffsOrBust 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 (edited) Well, Fletcher's moves are universally disliked by these writers... https://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/HockeyBuzz-Hotstove/Thoughts-on-the-Philadelphia-Flyers-off-season-moves-to-date/187/100048 It's possible that the writers turn out to be right. But since we have no say in the moves, I just have to believe he made the right ones until they prove to not be. A lot of things need to go right for the Flyers this year. Edited June 19, 2019 by brelic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 45 minutes ago, ruxpin said: I think i don't like Bailey there. He's an AHLer. Your new 3rd line RW... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 7 minutes ago, elmatus said: I will say this, the single biggest change of most importance in my view is the coaching. That alone could make a tremendous difference with this team. If this team does see a huge leap forward, I don't think it'll be because of these recent acquisitions -- it would be 9/10th because of the coaching change THIS ^^^^^^^^ x1000000 I said all along the Flyers needed a NHL caliber coach and Hak simply was not it and Gordo was only a temporary stop gap. It is put up or shut up time with the players. There can not be any more excuses......... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 1 minute ago, brelic said: I just have to believe he made the right ones until they prove to not be. Yep that is where i am at.....i remember all the flak the Eagles got for hiring Doug Pederson and all the moves they made the year they won the Super Bowl including the melt down from bringing Nick Foles back....how did that end i can't remember. All talking head are is talking heads they know really no ore than you or i. Remember them calling for Berube's head in December??? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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