OccamsRazor Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 28 minutes ago, brelic said: Sure, but last season he was pretty awful... and again, not just because of the 'team' but because he was making uncharacteristic gaffes all season long. I know, learning process, he's young, asked to be #1, coaching was an issue, organization was in turmoil, we used a charter plane worth of goaltenders... but he still did not look ok. So Chuck has to decide if that was a minor dip in the development curve, or indicative of something else. I'm pretty sure he will be fine long-term.... it's more about Fletch gambling 8 years and $64M that he will be a bonafide #1. In all likelihood, it's a safe bet that he will find his game again and grow from it, but I'm not the one signing the cheques nor do I have to manage a salary cap. The Hayes signing was a luxury... if it goes south, it's no fun but the team can afford one or two bloated contracts. All teams have them. That's why contracts are risk/reward. But Fletch can't go full Homer either, and hand out huge contracts with NMCs. And as i said coming off of shoulder surgery where he could workout like he had been doing more of resting and rehabbing. So I can see how someone can just use the not so good season as the measuring stick. Which I'm sure that is what Chuckles is doing and Ivan is using his stellar season. So they will have to meet in the middle. #Flyers and Provy were working on six-year deal. That may change after Werenski signed three-year contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 59 minutes ago, brelic said: Of course, I'd love to have him in the lineup, but I'm completely ok if Fletch decides "nope, you're just not being reasonable" and does what he feels is best for the team. Exactly what could he do thats, "best for the team" ? Explain to me how this team couls possibly be better off without him and how paying him whatever you have to hurts the team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 14 minutes ago, CoachX said: Exactly what could he do thats, "best for the team" ? Explain to me how this team couls possibly be better off without him and how paying him whatever you have to hurts the team? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 9 hours ago, CoachX said: Exactly what could he do thats, "best for the team" ? Explain to me how this team couls possibly be better off without him and how paying him whatever you have to hurts the team? Well coach...no matter who the guy is or how valuable...you just cant hand over blank cheques. Being fiscally prudent and somewhat fair is indeed the GMs job. If someone is being unreasonable you just dont cave. In Provs case any left over money is mostly going to Konecny...who is a young up and comer in his own right...pay Provs to much and you take yourself out of range for Kons. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 16 hours ago, CoachX said: Exactly what could he do thats, "best for the team" ? Explain to me how this team couls possibly be better off without him and how paying him whatever you have to hurts the team? It's not that the Flyers would be "better off without him," that makes no sense. I love Provorov and hope he's a lifetime Flyer - we waited a looooong time for a homegrown cornerstone defenseman. All I was saying is that if Fletch decides he's not just going to "give Provorov whatever he wants," and they weren't able to reach a deal, then so be it. It's neither side's fault, it would basically boil down to either side having very different views on perceived value. In any case, I figure this is all a moot point and that Provy will sign today. Last I saw was $6.8M over 6 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 1 minute ago, brelic said: It's not that the Flyers would be "better off without him," that makes no sense. I love Provorov and hope he's a lifetime Flyer - we waited a looooong time for a homegrown cornerstone defenseman. All I was saying is that if Fletch decides he's not just going to "give Provorov whatever he wants," and they weren't able to reach a deal, then so be it. It's neither side's fault, it would basically boil down to either side having very different views on perceived value. In any case, I figure this is all a moot point and that Provy will sign today. Last I saw was $6.8M over 6 years. I expect you’re correct. I guess it could be suggested, they’re better off in the long run trading him than paying him $13ion for 15 years, but I doubt it’s that unrealistic. Its a little bit of agita waiting, but I’m not terribly concerned. This is the kid who was bereft and blamed himself for the Penguins series loss because he couldn’t decent two of the leagues better players with one hand. He’s not a prima Donna am he doesn’t want to break the cap and he wants the team to win. This is just a fairly unique year for RFA’s. I’m hoping this is the peak of the RFA madness and that Johnson, Kapanen, Werenski and Sanheim are sort of the dawn of sanity returning. I think Marner and point are going to blow that up though. We’ll see. I agree though, I think this gets done in the next 48 hours. These guys are expecting to go to camp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 On 9/9/2019 at 12:06 PM, brelic said: One year deal is probably smart for the Flyers. Quite frankly, his play has not warranted the 8x8 talk I’ve seen. 20 hours ago, vis said: Mark this off-season down as the point at which a sea change occurred with respect to the approach to high-profile RFAs. Suspect we are going to see more of these types of "bridge" deals with a big kicker in the final RFA year to set the stage for a substantial salary increase via qualifying offer, arbitration or UFA. It's an interesting structure. Wonder if we are going to see more arbitration hearings down the line as a result. Given that there have been similar rumblings with Marner's deal, sure as **** agents have gotten together on this strategy and are trying to implement it on a wide-scale basis. Teams are probably reluctant to accept the change (perhaps due in large part to inertia), but will come around. Werenski was the first domino to fall. Perhaps a new norm. I’m hoping. I still want to know exactly what tactic Hextall used to get Simmer, Coots and Ghost and Coots to sign their team friendly deals and if it was the same thing TO just pulled in Johnson and Kapanen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 7 hours ago, jammer2 said: pay Provs to much and you take yourself out of range for Kons. so sort a provs vs kons situation then... 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 1 hour ago, King Knut said: Its a little bit of agita waiting, but I’m not terribly concerned. This is the kid who was bereft and blamed himself for the Penguins series loss because he couldn’t decent two of the leagues better players with one hand. He’s not a prima Donna am he doesn’t want to break the cap and he wants the team to win. I think this is the crux of it - this whole thing feels driven and manufactured by his agent. Provorov does not at all seem like the primadonna type. He's quite the opposite. His agent, on the other hand... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vis Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 2 hours ago, King Knut said: I still want to know exactly what tactic Hextall used to get Simmer, Coots and Ghost and Coots to sign their team friendly deals and if it was the same thing TO just pulled in Johnson and Kapanen. No idea. Simmonds was Holmgren, I think, but Hextall was there as AGM. Couturier was signed before he broke out offensively, so I kind of get that. Ghost was a very good deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJgoal Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 Ghost had the real down year following the injury that helped lower his value. Quite similar to Provorov in that respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 9 hours ago, jammer2 said: Well coach...no matter who the guy is or how valuable...you just cant hand over blank cheques. Being fiscally prudent and somewhat fair is indeed the GMs job. If someone is being unreasonable you just dont cave. In Provs case any left over money is mostly going to Konecny...who is a young up and comer in his own right...pay Provs to much and you take yourself out of range for Kons. Excellent points. But i have not read anywhere that Ivan is being unreasonable. And its been well known that there is definitely enough money to sign both. Now, if Ivan was to request so much that it cost the TK, i would agree, contrary to my statement to pay him whatever. I just dont think thats the case. Reports are, Ivan wants 8mil. I say pay him. If he wants 10, pay him. Anything more would be undoable and therefore is not a reality Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 2 hours ago, King Knut said: I’m hoping. I still want to know exactly what tactic Hextall used to get Simmer, Coots and Ghost and Coots to sign their team friendly deals and if it was the same thing TO just pulled in Johnson and Kapanen. He got Coots to sign twice? Guy was a genius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 1 hour ago, brelic said: I think this is the crux of it - this whole thing feels driven and manufactured by his agent. Provorov does not at all seem like the primadonna type. He's quite the opposite. His agent, on the other hand... True, but I don't know that it's just the agent. If Fletcher is savvy at all, he knows it could behoove him to wait until the other deals are on the table. He knows he can try to Ghost him with a low end deal before Werenski and McAvoy sign, but he also knows that he could end up Hayesing himself by giving a fatter deal than he needed to. As it turns out, the Weresnki thing happening first the way it did could likely help out the Flyers case. Long story short, I don't think this is a player hold out or anythign obnoxious. There are a LOT of RFA's still waiting. Werenski was the first of a big stack of pretty big young names. It should start to flow soon. Except Marner. He'll happen day 1. Point is a trickier maneuver for Tampa. Not sure how that plays out actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 25 minutes ago, King Knut said: True, but I don't know that it's just the agent. If Fletcher is savvy at all, he knows it could behoove him to wait until the other deals are on the table. He knows he can try to Ghost him with a low end deal before Werenski and McAvoy sign, but he also knows that he could end up Hayesing himself by giving a fatter deal than he needed to. As it turns out, the Weresnki thing happening first the way it did could likely help out the Flyers case. Long story short, I don't think this is a player hold out or anythign obnoxious. There are a LOT of RFA's still waiting. Werenski was the first of a big stack of pretty big young names. It should start to flow soon. Except Marner. He'll happen day 1. Point is a trickier maneuver for Tampa. Not sure how that plays out actually. To illustrate a more difficult case (and @CoachX this is what I meant by a GM not just capitulating to a player's demands if it doesn't make sense for his vision of the organization): Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 1 hour ago, vis said: No idea. Simmonds was Holmgren, I think, but Hextall was there as AGM. Couturier was signed before he broke out offensively, so I kind of get that. Ghost was a very good deal. I think you’re right re: Simmons’s. Just too nice a guy I think. Homer certainly my not known for his shrewd negotiating u less he just handed that to his new AGM. Coots was coveted. Most of the league would have paid more even at the time. I was almost shocked he didn’t get offer sheeted knowing the Flyers cap issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 3 hours ago, CoachX said: He got Coots to sign twice? Guy was a genius Sorry, if you knew what I was doing while I was typing, you'd understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 13 minutes ago, King Knut said: Sorry, if you knew what I was doing while I was typing, you'd understand. Some things are better left unsaid! TMI ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 1 minute ago, CoachX said: Some things are better left unsaid! TMI ! Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 2 hours ago, brelic said: To illustrate a more difficult case (and @CoachX this is what I meant by a GM not just capitulating to a player's demands if it doesn't make sense for his vision of the organization): Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 7 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: I mean, when you have your dad as your agent, it's probably very hard to be objective. Flyers fans know all about that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 1 minute ago, brelic said: I mean, when you have your dad as your agent, it's probably very hard to be objective. Flyers fans know all about that! His dad is his agent?? I thought i read it was Marc Gandler who is representing Ivan. Which would explain the delay since he is so greedy with all his clients. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted September 11, 2019 Author Share Posted September 11, 2019 On 9/10/2019 at 8:07 AM, brelic said: Honestly, I'd be fine with the Flyers standing firm and moving on the season without him if they can't reach an agreement. I cannot even comprehend this post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 11 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: His dad is his agent?? I thought i read it was Marc Gandler who is representing Ivan. Which would explain the delay since he is so greedy with all his clients. If Provorov gets $6M, he'd be the highest paid player on Gandler's roster. He has all of seven (of 24) guys making $1M or more https://puckpedia.com/agent/mark-gandler Coming off a 28g/59point (66 games) season for Barkov, all he got him was $5.9M. That's closer to a Couturier-type deal than it is, say, Hayesian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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