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ruxpin

Seravalli: Flyers & Provorov not close

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33 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

I'm not worried till they start missing camp time.

Same, but I am doubtful it comes to that.

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4 hours ago, vis said:

Same, but I am doubtful it comes to that.

 

I think TK will be signed in time for camp, but not so sure about Provy. 

 

Doesn’t camp start like next week?

 

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On 8/30/2019 at 6:22 PM, brelic said:

 

I think TK will be signed in time for camp, but not so sure about Provy. 

 

Doesn’t camp start like next week?

 

Think so.  Finally.

 

I wonder if these guys have fully baked deals locked and loaded and ready to be signed by a drop-dead date, e.g., September 13.

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On 8/30/2019 at 1:14 PM, vis said:

Maybe.  But Meier put up 30G and 65+ points this past season.  Konecny hasn't topped 25 or 50.  Konecny has been more consistently productive over the years.  My sense is Meier is better all around, but maybe I'm wrong about that.  His fancy stats are better than Konecny's.  

 

WTF is Arizona doing??? The kid is just 21 coming off a 14 goal 47 point season after putting up 23 goals and 65 point the previous season....are they trying to destroy the pay scale??? I guess this is what TK and other have been holding out for....

 

@ruxpin

 

 

7.15 mill AAV is just crazy....

 

 

167 GP 37 G 114 PTS -31 in his career. 14 goals last year.

 

 

Edited by OccamsRazor
#stopthebleeding
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2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

WTF is Arizona doing??? The kid is just 21 coming off a 14 goal 47 point season after putting up 23 goals and 65 point the previous season....are they trying to destroy the pay scale??? I guess this is what TK and other have been holding out for....

 

@ruxpin

 

 

7.15 mill AAV is just crazy....

 

 

167 GP 37 G 114 PTS -31 in his career. 14 goals last year.

 

 

I don't know. He didn't have a good year last year.  This ends when he's 29 or 30.  He should be a really good player.  This could be a really good deal for the Yotes. 

 

Or, it could be a disaster. 

 

This is the developing problem in the NHL. The death of the bridge deal is causing a lot of wild forecasting and prospecting. It's making the "irrelevant age" as young or younger than the NFL.  You probably will see the emergence of the Howie "these positions are worth paying for and these aren't" philosophy. 

 

And the expansion is only making a bad situation even worse. The whole thing is going to burn itself out. 

 

On a micro level, really not a horrible deal. 

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I can't believe that the whole Provorov thing is still going on. Nobody is getting signed before camp. It's simply not happening. As for the whole $10 million per season asking price, I'm pretty certain that's a load of crap as well started by a Columbus journalist. When you consider that the asking price that Werenski was talking about was a bridge contract of 3 years at $5 million per, the Provorov camp knows they aren't getting anywhere near that long term. The fact that Chuck and Mark Gandler are rather silent and when they've spoken, there's been nothing acrimonious, should speak in volumes about the situation. If there's bad blood, there might be something. But as it stands, there has been zero negative feelings in the press, which to me says they're talking, they understand the situation and that the numbers are probably agreed upon, but they're just waiting for the first shoe to drop. 

If anything, I expect this will be resolved when someone like Point or Marner (I'm expecting Point will be the first though) signs. Everything else will fall into place. Provorov will be looked after and he will be in camp. I think he's a rather smart player and certainly understands being in camp with the new coaching staff. He's going to be a pivotal player for the staff and a lot of what they'll be implementing will be based around him.

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13 hours ago, ruxpin said:

This is the developing problem in the NHL.

 

This might make the NHL push harder for non-guaranteed contracts. That, to me, is a no-brainer. 

 

 

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31 minutes ago, brelic said:

This might make the NHL push harder for non-guaranteed contracts. That, to me, is a no-brainer.

 

Sure, but for the players maybe not so much a no brainer?

 

In the end, there's really only one group of people who can stop the owners from offering silly contracts.

 

The owners.

 

And the "You've got to stop me from being able to offer you stupid money" approach might not be the best negotiating position?

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10 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Sure, but for the players maybe not so much a no brainer?

 

Oh absolutely. I'm sure that would be a hill to die on for the players. 

 

In the end, do the players want millions of dollars to play in North America in the best hockey league in the world with a non-guaranteed contract or not? It's not like it's asking the players to toil in poverty. It's a reasonable position for the NHL to hold.

 

But I suspect that would absolutely lead to a full season work stoppage, and I think it would be worth it for the owners to pursue that if that's what it takes. 

 

10 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

In the end, there's really only one group of people who can stop the owners from offering silly contracts.

 

The owners.

 

And the "You've got to stop me from being able to offer you stupid money" approach might not be the best negotiating position?

 

Yes, they are the ones handing out the contracts. The only difference in this case would be the owners saying, "oh, we'll still offer you silly contracts... except now you have to actually earn it. Hold up your end of the bargain and we'll hold up ours."

 

And "earning it" has different meaning for different players, owners, organizations, fans. It's up to them to figure out if they're getting value for money.

 

I know, I know, non-guaranteed contracts open up a whole new can of worms, least of which the 'rich' teams can again just throw more money around without being bound to it. 

 

I said it was a no-brainer, not easy to implement :)

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4 hours ago, brelic said:

In the end, do the players want millions of dollars to play in North America in the best hockey league in the world with a non-guaranteed contract or not? It's not like it's asking the players to toil in poverty. It's a reasonable position for the NHL to hold.

 

Then basically all they would get would be their signing bonuses and i would expect if that was the case then it would be structured like the the NFL's is, so when they are cut then the signing bonus that was spread out over the length of the contract would get accelerated into the current year when they are cut or released.

 

There has to be something there so the GMs aren't cutting them anything time they need cap space.

 

 

Would this be worth it??

Edited by OccamsRazor
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1 hour ago, brelic said:

And "earning it" has different meaning for different players, owners, organizations, fans. It's up to them to figure out if they're getting value for money.

 

This always presents the double edge sword...like in the Keller contract i provided above i'm sure Arizona is sticking their neck out and are paying him (which i completely disagree with) on his one 60 point season. 

 

If he comes out and has nother 47 point season he sure isn't going to give any money back.

 

Just like if he comes out and put up 90+ points he isn't getting a pay raise.

 

It is why the teams roll the dice on these long deals sometimes they come out smelling like roses like Couturier's contract and some time they get burnt.

 

I hope they figure it out but it really is up to these GMs to help control their own problem they are making. 

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My worry is guaranteed contracts elevate prices in all other areas. So tickets, tv and fan gear all go up. The fans incur the price hike.

 

I like the way the NFL does it. It does allow the gm to cut whenever they want, thats true. But it also keeps the player on his toes. If he doesnt play at the highest level, he can find himself booted

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1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

This always presents the double edge sword...like in the Keller contract i provided above i'm sure Arizona is sticking their neck out and are paying him (which i completely disagree with) on his one 60 point season. 

 

If he comes out and has nother 47 point season he sure isn't going to give any money back.

 

Just like if he comes out and put up 90+ points he isn't getting a pay raise.

 

It is why the teams roll the dice on these long deals sometimes they come out smelling like roses like Couturier's contract and some time they get burnt.

 

I hope they figure it out but it really is up to these GMs to help control their own problem they are making. 

 

Right, but the point I was also making is that "value" can be measured by more than just points. Even if Crosby declines to the point where his production is not worth the money they're paying him, his star status alone might still be driving attendance, merch sales, community involvement, etc. So that "value" counts as well.

 

 

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1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

like in the Keller contract i provided above i'm sure Arizona is sticking their neck out and are paying him (which i completely disagree with) on his one 60 point season. 

 

Is that like paying a guy $7M+ for seven years on the basis of one 20+ goal season and one 50+ point season?

 

Asking for a hockey franchise in Philadelphia.

 

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45 minutes ago, radoran said:

Is that like paying a guy $7M+ for seven years on the basis of one 20+ goal season and one 50+ point season?

 

It's not actually like it (i.e. Hayes' is worse), because Keller actually has "huge upside as a top line player in the NHL, drawing comparisons to Patrick Kane" and "scoring juggernaut" (Dobber) , and has already put up over 60 pts in the NHL. As a 20 yr old. 

 

Hayes is a smart, two-way player with middling speed and an average shot, i.e. Hayes does NOT have "huge upside as a top line player" and will never be confused with a "scoring juggernaut" even on his best day. 

 

Edited by Podein25
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59 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Is that like paying a guy $7M+ for seven years on the basis of one 20+ goal season and one 50+ point season?

 

Asking for a hockey franchise in Philadelphia.

 

👺

 

yeah...........who does that?

 

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4 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

:DancingGrape:

 

We have no interest in Comrie.

 

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From Ek

McAvoy is the benchmark there...although there is little doubt that Werenski could sign first....Provorov and the Flyers seem the furthest apart and most likely to be willing to wait this out...
 

 

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59 minutes ago, brelic said:

From Ek

McAvoy is the benchmark there...although there is little doubt that Werenski could sign first....Provorov and the Flyers seem the furthest apart and most likely to be willing to wait this out...
 

 

 

I'm not following how he can be the bench mark when no one can come in and offer sheet him the other two can be signed to an offer sheet therefore can't see how he is a benchmark.

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4 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I'm not following how he can be the bench mark when no one can come in and offer sheet him the other two can be signed to an offer sheet therefore can't see how he is a benchmark.

 

The ability to offer sheet a player doesn't really factor into the comparables for contracts. Yes, McAvoy really can't move, but age, points, usage, etc will really be the factors that the agents will point to. Especially since neither Werenski nor Provorov has signed an offer sheet at this point and few teams can really afford to offer sheet either, it's unlikely they will receive one. So that leverage doesn't really exist now.

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1 hour ago, AJgoal said:

 

The ability to offer sheet a player doesn't really factor into the comparables for contracts. Yes, McAvoy really can't move, but age, points, usage, etc will really be the factors that the agents will point to. Especially since neither Werenski nor Provorov has signed an offer sheet at this point and few teams can really afford to offer sheet either, it's unlikely they will receive one. So that leverage doesn't really exist now.

 

Ok so how is he the benchmark I'm not following that.

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57 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Ok so how is he the benchmark I'm not following that.

 

All three are generally considered to be similar. If McAvoy signs first, and a lot of the conventional wisdom seems to say he is most likely to, he's the benchmark. If Werenski or Provorov signs first, they'll be the benchmark. Ek's useless, but he's not really saying anything that hasn't been said by a number of other folks over the course of the summer.

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So would you be ok with Ivan on a 1 year bridge deal to get him in camp?

 

Anyone feel free to chime in...

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Im okay with whatever it takes. The one year deal gives him the upper hand in future negotiations,  assuming he plays at a level worthy of his rep. If he does, he gets to demand a big payday, and the Flyers shiuld happily pay up. If he doesnt, his advantage at the table dwindles 

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  • Most Liked Posts in This Topic

    • 8
      Post
      Provorov is the lead defender in Philadelphia. When he's on, there's no one on that club that's better. And when he's out of sorts (like last season) everyone is affected. I get he didn't have the 'numbers', but the intangibles he brings to the table are immeasurable. Honestly, if Giroux and Voracek are worth $8+ million per year, then Provorov is right up there with them. If I'm GM, I'd start with an 8 year/$62 million deal, $7.75 million per year cap hit. 
    • 6
      Post
      Never happening. Provorov didn't come over to North America when he was 14 to play in the KHL. He came here to play in the NHL. 
    • 6
      Post
      Provorov is a rare entity. Unlike many, he's worth every penny of whatever he gets. 
    • 5
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      If Fletcher doesn't figure out how to keep Ivan Provorov than he's an even bigger idiot than his worst critics think he is.  
    • 5
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      I dont...who is gonna eat those minutes. Trading Provs would set this team back years. Basically restart the rebuild from scratch...I for one dont have the stomach for that. Provs has shown us about 60% of what he is gonna be...and he is already clearly our most valuable d man and youngster. At certain points...prospects and picks can be counter productive...esp if you cant transition the puck out of your end.
    • 5
      Post
      I have no doubt there'll be a slogan...I just think the team will take a step forward and doesn't need one my friend.      Here's a slogan....GFY.      I don't need no winery...I can grow WEED in my backyard.....LEGALLY!      

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