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vis

Holmgren Stepping Aside

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Posted (edited)

 

 

Holmgren's greatest strength was his willingness to carry out the orders of those above him.  I remain convinced that nearly all of his actions as an executive were dictated by Snider or Scott, or were made in furtherance of their directives.  I don't think the guy had his own vision, or perhaps it wasn't in his DNA to challenge or vary from what his bosses wanted.

 

Btw, I'm sure this title is nothing more than a placard with a salary and employment benefits.  He's moving into Clarke's role.

 

Edited by vis
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I wonder if firing Hextall helped to expedite this process.  He looked like he wanted to be anywhere but at that podium saying those words, answering those questions.

 

Like most people he wasn't perfect, I do think he's more than just a decent person. I thought was pretty shrewd early in  his tenure as GM.

Don't know what happened towards the end, KK likes to say it was the bike accident, others think he was trying to win for the dying boss. 

I think knee capping his buddy was the final straw though.

 

Now there are zero hockey guys with Dave Scott's ear. None. 

 

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1 hour ago, vis said:

I remain convinced that nearly all of his actions as an executive were dictated by Snider or Scott, or were made in furtherance of their directives.

 

I disagree in the context that I'm agreeing with @mojo1917 about early in his tenure.

 

I don't think the Hartnell/Timonen/Briere deals were dictated. I think they were his moves. I'm also pretty sure the Pronger deal is the kind of thing he would have come up with.

 

When you get to Bryzgalov is where I think he took a directive to "address the goalie situation". Agree that firing Hextall was a directive from Scott.

 

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

Now there are zero hockey guys with Dave Scott's ear. None. 

 

Pretty scary, innit?

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I separate the warrior player from the "I like shiny toys" GM philosophy he brought...ie Vinny L etc. Respect him as a person but good riddance and the less stroke he has in the org the better!

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6 minutes ago, AlaskaFlyerFan said:

Is this the end of the Good Ole Boys club?  No more ex-Flyers in upper management?

 

Yea, yea, it's all fun n games till Jody Shelley is made President of Hockey Operations... :bigteeth:

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Best news I've heard this whole offseason. 

 

I loved him as a player 

Hated him as a coach. 

 

I really think he started out very well as GM. He made a bunch of really good moves out of the gate. I mean, he built a team that really should have challenged for the Cup.  When Pronger got hurt, you really had to feel for both Pronger and for Holmgren. I don't think Holmgren was the same after that and made move of desperation after move of desperation. 

 

It really was the tale of two GMs and it's almost understandable on a human level. 

 

I'm not sorry to see him go. It's well past time.  But I'm sorry to see him go.  Kind of. 

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10 hours ago, AlaskaFlyerFan said:

Is this the end of the Good Ole Boys club?  No more ex-Flyers in upper management?

I seriously doubt it. There are ex-players scattered up and down the front office. The franchise does have loyalty. I'll give them that. It doesnt translate to positive results, but its there.

 

Even though they brought in outside guys, it sounds like the same ol tired strategy is in place. They know the fan base. The passion for winning will fill the arena, so they have to put a competitive team in place. I think its a business model not truly focused on championships.

 

Its funny, while Hextall was stocking the cupboards with prospects, it sounds like the front office was doing the same, except with people who will toe the company line.

 

Bait and switch

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1 hour ago, CoachX said:

I think its a business model not truly focused on championships.

 

I don't know if this can really be true.

 

It's a no brainers a Championship brings more revenue in any sport.

 

So it being the ultimate goal should still be the same regardless of who is running the show.

 

The only thing I think changes is on how they think they need to operate to get there.

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It's truly the end of an era. 

 

Holmgren is the personification of a Philadelphia Flyer.

 

Thank you, Paul. 

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Dont get me wrong, im sure they want to win a championship. I dont mean to suggest otherwise. But i think the bigger priority is getting a winning product on the ice as fast as possible. This generates immediate revenue. Its easier to sustain a playoff team for multiple seasons, than it is to win even one cup. This has been proven since 75. Hope in fans = money spent.

 

From what Im reading, the Flyer strategy is the same now under Fletcher, as it was under Holmgren. Do whatever it takes to win games and make the playoffs. It hasnt worked for almost 45 years. Maybe things will be different now. Or, maybe we are looking at the epitome of Einstein's definition of insanity

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

I wonder if firing Hextall helped to expedite this process.  He looked like he wanted to be anywhere but at that podium saying those words, answering those questions.


Like most people he wasn't perfect, I do think he's more than just a decent person.

Yeah, I don't think Holmgren wanted to be the hatchet man re: Hextall, but, being the soldier he is, he did it anyway.  I would not be surprised if that took the wind out of him and I wonder if he decided back then that he'd step aside once the GM and coach were firmly in place.  I do think Holmgren is a good man.  I think it pained him to let Hextall go.

 

17 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

I thought was pretty shrewd early in  his tenure as GM.

 

16 hours ago, radoran said:

 

I disagree in the context that I'm agreeing with @mojo1917 about early in his tenure.

 

I don't think the Hartnell/Timonen/Briere deals were dictated. I think they were his moves. I'm also pretty sure the Pronger deal is the kind of thing he would have come up with.

 

When you get to Bryzgalov is where I think he took a directive to "address the goalie situation". Agree that firing Hextall was a directive from Scott.

Good points by both of you re: Holmgren's early tenure.  He also made some pretty good trades that got Lupul and Upshall and Coburn and others here.  I should have qualified my statement above about his lack of vision.

 

17 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

Now there are zero hockey guys with Dave Scott's ear. None. 

You know, a lot of people kind of bemoaned the presence of the "old guard" still with the team.  Yeah, there were some issues, but I also think the pride those guys felt about the organization, their faithfulness to Snider and his loyalty to the players gave this organization an identity and made it a place where players want to come and play.  Nearly every time you hear players talk about the organization, you hear them say that the players are a priority and they want for nothing and that they are treated extremely well.  Players were excited to come here (maybe some players got spoiled by that treatment, e.g., Richards and Carter).  With the old guard gone, I worry about this team losing its roots and identity.  I despise the fact that a faceless corporation, who I question has a real desire to win above profitability, now runs this team.  Really scares me.  I don't even understand why Comcast wants to own the team.  I hope they sell it.

Edited by vis
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2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

It's a no brainers a Championship brings more revenue in any sport.

 

Philadelphia Flyers.

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. 835, 242 paid with a 98.1% fill at home.

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they were 3rd in the league in paid attendance. They've been out of the top five in attendance once in the past ten years -

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.

 

This comes on the heels of three playoff rounds in seven years.

 

The problem isn't selling tickets - it's getting people to come to the games for the ancillary revenue. That was the problem with Hextall's approach - fans bought tickets, but weren't coming in to watch the product and thus not spending money on food and drink after a major overhaul of the concourses.

 

Playoffs mean revenue increase - championships only marginally more so because they get a few more games.

 

2 hours ago, CoachX said:

Do whatever it takes to win games and make the playoffs. It hasnt worked for almost 45 years. Maybe things will be different now. Or, maybe we are looking at the epitome of Einstein's definition of insanity

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Philadelphia Flyers.

Hidden Content

    Give reaction or reply to this topic to see the hidden content.
. 835, 242 paid with a 98.1% fill at home.

Hidden Content

    Give reaction or reply to this topic to see the hidden content.
they were 3rd in the league in paid attendance. They've been out of the top five in attendance once in the past ten years -

Hidden Content

    Give reaction or reply to this topic to see the hidden content.
.

 

This comes on the heels of three playoff rounds in seven years.

 

The problem isn't selling tickets - it's getting people to come to the games for the ancillary revenue. That was the problem with Hextall's approach - fans bought tickets, but weren't coming in to watch the product and thus not spending money on food and drink after a major overhaul of the concourses.

 

Playoffs mean revenue increase - championships only marginally more so because they get a few more games.

 

 

 

 

 

So what are you saying winning Championships doesn't bring more money and eventually put more butts in the seats and hotdogs down some throats?

 

That they don't want to win a title?

 

Just make some small coin?

 

Edited by OccamsRazor
meant to say doesn't...just having my coffee...oops

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8 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

So what are you saying winning Championships doesn't bring more money and eventually put more butts in the seats and hotdogs down some throats?

 

That they don't want to win a title?

 

Just make some small coin?

 

What Championships can do is revitalize a fanbase. Chicago was famously inept for years and was 29th in the league in attendance three years before they won the Cup in 2010. After winning two Cups, they're still #1 in the league in attendance even with two playoff rounds in four years.

 

That's not the situation the Flyers are in. They are already 3rd in the league in attendance and haven't been lower than 6th in the past 10 years and it's been the worst stretch of hockey in the organization's history. There simply aren't a lot of extra seats to fill. Going from 98.1% capacity to 100% capacity is a relatively small number, especially for an organization like Comcast.

 

They definitely want to win a title. The question - as @CoachX noted - is the way they approach it. Are we back to "make the playoffs and anything can happen?" As Coach said, that approach hasn't worked here for 45 years and if you look at the past 30 years you find two? three? dark horse surprise Cup winners?

 

I do see Dave Scott as primarily a bean counter. They had just put a ton of beans into the Big Bank Building and weren't seeing the ancillary revenue bump. So his stated goal was to "get back to making the playoffs."  Making the playoffs brings more revenue because it's more games at a higher ticket price. Playoffs mean more people interested. More people going to games. More people spending money. Regardless of whether they actually win a Championship.

 

Again, to be clear, they want to win a Championship.

 

Hextall was taking the approach that worked in L.A. - build from within; get a hot young goalie; then use assets to make moves to put you over the top. LA essentially traded Frost (Schenn), Ratcliffe (Simmonds), and Sanheim (Johnson) to get Richards and Crater. And won two Cups.

 

That said, I'm sure he and the rest of the "Definitely a Playoff Team Players" would have preferred if they had actually "made the playoffs" more often...

 

It could very well be that his foundation will allow Fletcher to do the same thing.

 

Time will tell.

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48 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

It could very well be that his foundation will allow Fletcher to do the same thing.

 

So basically Hextall is Chuckles Dave Taylor he is the one that got them the hot goalie and Captain Brown and Kopitar.

 

Then Lombardi added to it as well as bombed on a few but eventually got it right thanks to Holmgren...

 

...so who will be Chuckles Holmgren I wonder?

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Holmgren gone as president? About time.

 

Fletcher named president? Christ....why bother. We haven't won in 50 years....might as well keep status quo.

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18 hours ago, hf101 said:

 

well...  that thought brings back some memories.

 

 

 

(Spitting out my drink) LOL... talk about a blast from the past... thanks for bringing it back..LOL... the one with Crosby is a classic!

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, CoachX said:

Guy managed to serve the franchise in some capacity or another for 40 years. I doubt it was because he was a mindless cement head incapable of rational thought

I didn't say that he was a "mindless cement head."  I said I think he was a loyal soldier to his bosses and carried out their orders.  That's it.

 

Quote

I imagine some on this forum werent around back then. Some never got to see him play. The guy was a warrior. I personally appreciate the dedication and impact he had on the team ive loved and watched my entire life

This is some sanctimonious BS.

Edited by vis

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5 hours ago, radoran said:

 

What Championships can do is revitalize a fanbase. Chicago was famously inept for years and was 29th in the league in attendance three years before they won the Cup in 2010. After winning two Cups, they're still #1 in the league in attendance even with two playoff rounds in four years.

 

That's not the situation the Flyers are in. They are already 3rd in the league in attendance and haven't been lower than 6th in the past 10 years and it's been the worst stretch of hockey in the organization's history. There simply aren't a lot of extra seats to fill. Going from 98.1% capacity to 100% capacity is a relatively small number, especially for an organization like Comcast.

 

They definitely want to win a title. The question - as @CoachX noted - is the way they approach it. Are we back to "make the playoffs and anything can happen?" As Coach said, that approach hasn't worked here for 45 years and if you look at the past 30 years you find two? three? dark horse surprise Cup winners?

 

I do see Dave Scott as primarily a bean counter. They had just put a ton of beans into the Big Bank Building and weren't seeing the ancillary revenue bump. So his stated goal was to "get back to making the playoffs."  Making the playoffs brings more revenue because it's more games at a higher ticket price. Playoffs mean more people interested. More people going to games. More people spending money. Regardless of whether they actually win a Championship.

 

Again, to be clear, they want to win a Championship.

 

Hextall was taking the approach that worked in L.A. - build from within; get a hot young goalie; then use assets to make moves to put you over the top. LA essentially traded Frost (Schenn), Ratcliffe (Simmonds), and Sanheim (Johnson) to get Richards and Crater. And won two Cups.

 

That said, I'm sure he and the rest of the "Definitely a Playoff Team Players" would have preferred if they had actually "made the playoffs" more often...

 

It could very well be that his foundation will allow Fletcher to do the same thing.

 

Time will tell.

Well said, young man

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46 minutes ago, vis said:

I didn't say that he was a "mindless cement head."  I said I think he was a loyal soldier to his bosses and carried out their orders.  That's it.

 

This is some sanctimonious BS.

Why? Please explain

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    • 5
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      Guy managed to serve the franchise in some capacity or another for 40 years. I doubt it was because he was a mindless cement head incapable of rational thought   I imagine some on this forum werent around back then. Some never got to see him play. The guy was a warrior. I personally appreciate the dedication and impact he had on the team ive loved and watched my entire life
    • 5
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      well...  that thought brings back some memories.    
    • 5
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      He has been a loyal heart and soul Flyer for more than 30 years. Thanks for your service Paul. If its a crime to try and win then he is guilty.
    • 4
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      I agree the hockey hasn't been exciting. But that's what happens eventually when the previous gm keeps trading away draft picks/youth for win now...it's going to catch up. It did, and Hextall was left to clean up the mess.     Fletcher walks into an almost perfect dream...Goalie? Check (heck...GOALIES!) Defence? Check. Forwards? Check. Farm system? Filled beyond capacity. Draft picks? All there. Capspace? Yes sir. The guy only has to tweak a couple things.    We'll never know
    • 3
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      Best news I've heard this whole offseason.    I loved him as a player  Hated him as a coach.    I really think he started out very well as GM. He made a bunch of really good moves out of the gate. I mean, he built a team that really should have challenged for the Cup.  When Pronger got hurt, you really had to feel for both Pronger and for Holmgren. I don't think Holmgren was the same after that and made move of desperation after move of desperation.    It reall
    • 3
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      I don't think it's a minority situation. They really have everything needed to make the playoffs for sure. Depending on the competition and how things shake out, they might even win a round as you say.    Just as others here have expressed, Fletch is really coming into a dream situation with this team. All he has to do is not screw things up too badly, and they absolutely should be a playoff team this season. Just the coaching upgrade and having Hart from day one would likely have been

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