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vis

Holmgren Stepping Aside

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20 hours ago, hf101 said:

 

well...  that thought brings back some memories.

 

 

Omg, I'm crying. I remember this!  Lol. Can't believe you were able to dig this out. That's AWESOME! 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, pilldoc said:

 

(Spitting out my drink) LOL... talk about a blast from the past... thanks for bringing it back..LOL... the one with Crosby is a classic!

 

1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

Omg, I'm crying. I remember this!  Lol. Can't believe you were able to dig this out. That's AWESOME! 

 

@hf101

@ruxpin

Here is the classic one with regards to Crosby ...... LOL ...enjoy!

 

 

 

 

Edited by pilldoc
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The Flyers won the Cup in 1973-1974.

The Flyers again won the Cup in 1974-75.

Paul Holmgren came to the Flyers in 1975-76 and  with the exception of a very brief hiatus, has been here ever since. 

The Flyers have never won another Cup. 

Coincidence? 

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Just now, ruxpin said:

The Flyers won the Cup in 1973-1974.

The Flyers again won the Cup in 1974-75.

Paul Holmgren came to the Flyers in 1975-76 and  with the exception of a very brief hiatus, has been here ever since. 

The Flyers have never won another Cup. 

Coincidence? 

 

Well that is some damning facts on history ......... Things that make you go hmmmm in the night.......

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7 hours ago, CoachX said:

Well said, young man

 

Blind squirrel finds nut.

 

Film at 11.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, CoachX said:

Why? Please explain

As for Holmgren, it’s the sense I get when looking at some of his moves and the culture within which he operated, eg Snider and now Comcast.  I don’t think some of his moves were rational, but were made at the behest of his bosses.  I think he very much respects “chain of command” and that’s an admirable trait, to a degree.  And by the way, I didn’t mean what I said as an insult to Holmgren.  I think he gets bashed unfairly at times as a result of actions/strategies his bosses wanted him to take.

Edited by vis
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5 hours ago, vis said:

I think he gets bashed unfairly at times as a result of actions/strategies his bosses wanted him to take. 

 

The only deal I can really think of in that vein is Bryzgalov. Which them prompted him to trade away the two guys he had signed to be the faces and core of the franchise for 10 years and future Vezina winner Bobrovsky.

 

If anything he's unfairly bashed because he actually made some good moves. Early.

 

When you look at "bad deals" I don't think Snider was really saying "we need Steve Eminger" or "gosh, Kyle Calder/Kris Versteeg is a must-have" or "we've just got to have Lecavalier" or "we need to draft Kevin Marshall, so trade a 2nd and 3rd to get the 2nd you traded for Biron."

 

And having just two first or second round picks in four years (getting one back (Couturier) in The Trades and trading the other one (Sbisa) away for a 34-year-old defenceman) no doubt hurt the depth in the organization.

 

Add that to tanking the organization's ability to deal in the Weber offer sheet and Homer's tenure as GM has to be regarded as a failure despite the 2010 run to the Final.

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Writ large, the "Founders" have moved on.  I think Holmgren's 2008 ECF team was testimony to thinking on the fly.  The 2010 team was "super fluke" and didn't lead to any long-term nucleus that was anywhere near elite.  Now we hope/expect that Hextall's pool of young talent is as good as we think.  Holmgren wasn't responsible for that.  But he did allow the stockpiling to go on.  

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16 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

The 2010 team was "super fluke" and didn't lead to any long-term nucleus that was anywhere near elite. 

 

Always makes me wonder what might have been if the late Emery would have had a healthy hip....sure no way to prove this by any means but I think they might have hoisted a Cup that year....and then wouldn't have however you labeled that team...

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1 hour ago, Howie58 said:

Writ large, the "Founders" have moved on.  I think Holmgren's 2008 ECF team was testimony to thinking on the fly.  The 2010 team was "super fluke" and didn't lead to any long-term nucleus that was anywhere near elite.  Now we hope/expect that Hextall's pool of young talent is as good as we think.  Holmgren wasn't responsible for that.  But he did allow the stockpiling to go on.  

Well, it did but we traded it. And one of the members' head blew up. 

 

I think we're set up better than we've been in a really long time. 

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1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Always makes me wonder what might have been if the late Emery would have had a healthy hip....sure no way to prove this by any means but I think they might have hoisted a Cup that year....and then wouldn't have however you labeled that team...

If it isnt a porche, its a hip. Whats next?  Advanced case of stenosing tenosynovitis

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6 minutes ago, CoachX said:

If it isnt a porche, its a hip. Whats next?  Advanced case of stenosing tenosynovitis

 

Isn't what they call trigger finger?

 

I've heard of it but never known anyone with it.

 

But if you can think  it then it can happen...

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19 hours ago, radoran said:

When you look at "bad deals" I don't think Snider was really saying "we need Steve Eminger" or "gosh, Kyle Calder/Kris Versteeg is a must-have" or "we've just got to have Lecavalier" or "we need to draft Kevin Marshall, so trade a 2nd and 3rd to get the 2nd you traded for Biron."

Generally, I agree (though, I also agree that Snider was probably pretty direct about signing Bryzgalov, trading Carter and Richards and possibly signing VLC and sheeting Weber).  But, Snider established the agenda/strategy/philosophy for the team, e.g., "do what you must to win now," which in turn lead to Holmgren decimating the prospect pool and making some dubious signings and trades and hiring/firing coaches.  I think Holmgren, in many instances, was reacting to Snider's edicts.  

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20 hours ago, radoran said:

When you look at "bad deals" I don't think Snider was really saying "we need Steve Eminger" or "gosh, Kyle Calder/Kris Versteeg is a must-have" or "we've just got to have Lecavalier" or "we need to draft Kevin Marshall, so trade a 2nd and 3rd to get the 2nd you traded for Biron."

 

And having just two first or second round picks in four years (getting one back (Couturier) in The Trades and trading the other one (Sbisa) away for a 34-year-old defenceman) no doubt hurt the depth in the organization.

Could it be the Steve Eminger deal is a direct result of Holmgren having made the successful trades that built the core of the are 10s team?

I think he was feeling like he was "gaming" the system and "on a roll". I also remember reading he didn't feel like the team could afford a top goalie so he was looking for quality guys trapped behind superstars. Biron fit that mold with Hasek, alas, everyone learned Marty wasn't really starter material- just a good back-up.  I really think the early success of turning broken down players into quality core players emboldened Homer to keep on "going with the gut".

 

The Pronger deal, does it look bad if he doesn't sustain the freak eye injury ?

In hindsight it is franchise crippling deal.

At the time 5 years of a still effective, true alpha dog, top pairing defensman for Luca Sbisa, Lupul and a few other picks...Those dominoes could have fallen so many different ways. Does Bryzgalov happen even happen? or is Bobrovsky winning his Vezina here?  would there have been 3-4 years of sustained top of the table play from the core of Richards, Carter, Briere, Hartnell, Timmonen ?  

It could have all blown up because of Pronger's personality clashing with Richards'. Or maybe success on the ice keeps a lid on that ugliness.

 

Just looking at the results from what is now the future, yes, more losses than wins in Homer's tenure. You can't say the guy didn't have some pretty horrible luck with his signature deal to tip the scale toward the loss column though.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

Could it be the Steve Eminger deal is a direct result of Holmgren having made the successful trades that built the core of the are 10s team?   Yes. I think so.  I think he was enjoying his own press clippings too much.  It happens, but this one was epic in its stupidity.

 

I think he was feeling like he was "gaming" the system and "on a roll". I also remember reading he didn't feel like the team could afford a top goalie so he was looking for quality guys trapped behind superstars. Biron fit that mold with Hasek, alas, everyone learned Marty wasn't really starter material- just a good back-up.  I really think the early success of turning broken down players into quality core players emboldened Homer to keep on "going with the gut".   I think only in retrospect was Biron a bad call.  He played well as a backup, and it's reasonable to have thought "he's a backup only because he's behind arguably one of the top 3-5 goalies of all time."

 

The Pronger deal, does it look bad if he doesn't sustain the freak eye injury ?

In hindsight it is franchise crippling deal.

At the time 5 years of a still effective, true alpha dog, top pairing defensman for Luca Sbisa, Lupul and a few other picks...Those dominoes could have fallen so many different ways. Does Bryzgalov happen even happen? or is Bobrovsky winning his Vezina here?  would there have been 3-4 years of sustained top of the table play from the core of Richards, Carter, Briere, Hartnell, Timmonen ?  

It could have all blown up because of Pronger's personality clashing with Richards'. Or maybe success on the ice keeps a lid on that ugliness.  I think you're right on all of this.  If Pronger remains healthy and we don't blow up the forward core, we win at least one Cup.  Especially when you think that Los Angeles does not become the team it did.

 

Just looking at the results from what is now the future, yes, more losses than wins in Homer's tenure. You can't say the guy didn't have some pretty horrible luck with his signature deal to tip the scale toward the loss column though.

 

Holmgren's whole tenure was destroyed by the Pronger thing.    He was right there.  I'm sure as a human being he could taste the success of it.   Especially when he made game 6 of the finals despite what he had to know was a weaker season than he'd hoped and a series of Bandaids in net.   Then the injury.

 

I know when I'm doing a project -- whether at work or just hobby -- I really enjoy seeing it come together from plan to execution to result.  If something happens at the last stage to destroy that or set me back multiple steps, the urge--after the #%@!$% stage and the pity party--is to try to cut corners to get to where I was so I can finish.  But it rarely works that way and some of the joy of it is missing, as well.

 

It seems to me that was Holmgren's tenure post-Pronger.   I'm wondering, too, if Snider himself felt similarly and was urging the corner-cutting and hail-Mary passes.  

 

I mentioned earlier that it really was the Tale of Two Eras for Holmgren's tenure.  The first--agree with every move or not--was a steady improvement and some really savvy moves.  The second was a guy trying to buy replacement parts who had already spent all his money on the first attempt and so was wildly debt-spending on replacement parts that never quite fit like the originals.

Edited by ruxpin
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2 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

Just looking at the results from what is now the future, yes, more losses than wins in Homer's tenure.

 

Well depends he won 5 playoff series in his 7 years.

 

Hextall got zero in his time.

 

So depends on what you call success neither produced a Cup...but if Emery's hip doesn't give out I liked their chances to hoist one in 2010...

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Well depends he won 5 playoff series in his 7 years.

 

Hextall got zero in his time.

 

So depends on what you call success neither produced a Cup...but if Emery's hip doesn't give out I liked their chances to hoist one in 2010...

 

 Ha....Holmgren left Hextall practically zero in the prospect pool and a crapload in the "overpaid over-the-hill" pool. Hextall couldn't sell the farm like Homer to acquire veterans because there wasn't one. And he spent years digging the Flyers out of the cap-hell Homer buried them in. Heck Fletcher bought out the last of Homers dumb signings. 

 

 Hextall left Fletcher one of the best young defences in hockey to go with one of the best young goaltenders and goaltending pool and a wack of young forwards/prospects and in great shape cap-wise. What Hextall left is built to last a lot longer than what he walked into...at least in a good way.

 

 And Homers 2010 team was closer to missing the playoffs altogether than winning the cup....though I agree a healthy Emery might have had a better ending. Like a healthy Flyers org. handed to Hextall might have.

 

 Hextall tried to build a sustainable team that could constantly refill talent with cheap youngsters. An actual plan. Homer acted like a drunken sailor on shore leave at a brothel.

Edited by flyercanuck
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20 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 Ha....Holmgren left Hextall practically zero in the prospect pool and a crapload in the "overpaid over-the-hill" pool. Hextall couldn't sell the farm like Homer to acquire veterans because there wasn't one. And he spent years digging the Flyers out of the cap-hell Homer buried them in. Heck Fletcher bought out the last of Homers dumb signings. 

 

 Hextall left Fletcher one of the best young defences in hockey to go with one of the best young goaltenders and goaltending pool and a wack of young forwards/prospects and in great shape cap-wise. What Hextall left is built to last a lot longer than what he walked into...at least in a good way.

 

 And Homers 2010 team was closer to missing the playoffs altogether than winning the cup.

 

All that and Homer team's were more exciting to watch....Hextall's you couldn't stand to watch...but hey they had prospects!!!

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Just now, OccamsRazor said:

Heck Fletcher bought out the last of Homers dumb signings. 

 

Hextall was right there holding Homer's hand with that Mcdud trade and then resigned him to that deal....or you going to blame that all on Homer...Hextall had no say so right before he took over...believe that if it makes you feel better...

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1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

All that and Homer team's were more exciting to watch....Hextall's you couldn't stand to watch...but hey they had prospects!!!

 

 well we haven't seen the results of Hextalls built since he went with youth. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Hextall was right there holding Homer's hand with that Mcdud trade and then resigned him to that deal....or you going to blame that all on Homer...Hextall had no say so right before he took over...believe that if it makes you feel better...

 

 Mmmm.....does the McDud signing scream Homer to you or Hextall? 

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1 minute ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 well we haven't seen the results of Hextalls built since he went with youth. 

 

 

 

And yet still no playoffs this past season...it's like he never even was gone!!!!!! :beer:

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3 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 Mmmm.....does the McDud signing scream Homer to you or Hextall? 

 

He signed his extension on April 15th 2014.

 

Hextall took over May 7th Hextall took over...if you don't think Ron signed off on that 3 weeks before taking the job you're living in denial and i'm not talking about the river...and we haven't even got to RJ or VLC yet....

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20 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Well depends he won 5 playoff series in his 7 years.

 

Hextall got zero in his time.

 

So depends on what you call success neither produced a Cup...but if Emery's hip doesn't give out I liked their chances to hoist one in 2010...

 

Agreed. It really depends how you define and measure success.

 

Playoff appearances / series wins? Statistically, Holmgren was much more successful than Hextall. 

 

Entertainment value of product on the ice? This is a subjective measure. For me, I found the teams under Holmgren much more exciting to watch. Under Hextall, I found myself tuning out of games, stretches, almost entire seasons for the first time in my life. The team was simply not entertaining to watch so I found other things to do. 

 

Building a pipeline? Hextall was clearly more successful. It didn't seem to matter to Holmgren, though, because he always found a way to retool on the fly, as maddening as that was sometimes. Was the last 'retool' one too many? Had he run out of options?

 

 

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7 minutes ago, brelic said:

I found the teams under Holmgren much more exciting to watch. Under Hextall, I found myself tuning out of games, stretches, almost entire seasons for the first time in my life.

 

Exactly. Yeah the team sucked on the ice but hey they have a top farm system.

 

I like you would just stop watching.

 

Just check the boxscore and stats and move on.

 

Very very hard to watch.

 

So boring and bland.

 

I hope to be able to watch this year.

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