OccamsRazor Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 49 minutes ago, brelic said: It seems Laughton got fair market value, per Meltzer. Very similar production to Laughton, same age. Laughton received a salary bump that is in the same generic ballpark as what players such as LA's Alex Iafallo (two years, $2.46 milion AAV) and Montreal's Joel Armia (two years, $2.65 million) received in their recently agreed-upon deals. You're not helping very much with the panic and outrage...just down right ruining the planned revolt. Consider yourself REPORTED! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmatus Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) Is it an overpayment? Maybe maybe not. Even if it is, it's really not that much of an overpayment. It's also only for two years, which is perfect and more important than 500k too much salary or whatever. Whether or not this is a trend Fletch exhibits is certainly worth considering. Really though, Hayes is the only substantial overpayment so far. Niskanen and Braun are on good contracts for what they offer and again are both on very short terms, which is what we want when we've got a stacked set of prospects waiting in the wings. It may become a trend for Fletch, but I wouldn't say that just yet when we only have one legit example of it. Edited July 13, 2019 by elmatus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) 59 minutes ago, elmatus said: Is it an overpayment? Maybe maybe not. Even if it is, it's really not that much of an overpayment. It's also only for two years, which is perfect and more important than 500k too much salary or whatever. Whether or not this is a trend Fletch exhibits is certainly worth considering. Really though, Hayes is the only substantial overpayment so far. Niskanen and Braun are on good contracts for what they offer and again are both on very short terms, which is what we want when we've got a stacked set of prospects waiting in the wings. It may become a trend for Fletch, but I wouldn't say that just yet when we only have one legit example of it. It's possible it was just some fluke of circumstance. Well you and Brel are not helping the cause any. I was busy rounding up the pitchforks and tar and feathers but you guys have ruined it for me now....I have lost all motivation now...what will I do with the rest of my day now? Must be a little life left in one of these horse carcasses lying around here for another good swift kick... Edited July 13, 2019 by OccamsRazor 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 45 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: Don't be shocked if there is no move. They have to play overseas to start the season so I could see them rolling with 13 forwards and 8 defenseman. They've done it before. At the very least, I expect no move before camp and possibly into pre-season. I say this because I think they are waiting to see what they have with the kid forwards to decide if they need to spend an asset on a 3rd line player. Or a 2nd line player and bump someone down. I don't think they're sure what they have and are holding back their money if they have to go shopping later. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 According to capfriendly Laughton is now the highest paid center under $2.5M who is 27 or younger. If you bump that level to $3M he's fourth, with a $500K gap between him and 3 (Danton Heinen). That's not "signing for market value," that's setting the market. If the league as a whole is fine with middling bottom six (10g, 30p) centers making $2.5M then that's fine. I don't particularly care. Good for them. Hockey's a tough sport. Take the money. But I can already hear the owners saying salaries have "gotten out of hand" in the next CBA negotiations. After they created the problem. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmatus Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, radoran said: But I can already hear the owners saying salaries have "gotten out of hand" in the next CBA negotiations. After they created the problem. Yep, I think you nailed it. I think they’re starting to plan for the next CBA. Now Laughton doesn’t matter much in that respect, since he wouldn’t be a buyout anyway, but I can point to one guy who is a prime candidate for sure. I’m curious to see if other teams follow suit. If so, I think we should probably expect yet another fiasco at the next CBA. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 1 hour ago, radoran said: But I can already hear the owners saying salaries have "gotten out of hand" in the next CBA negotiations. After they created the problem. Yep. And don't be shocked if in the back of Chuckles mind he knew he would use it as a get out of jail free card like they have before buying out a guy like Hayes contract...it is why he was forking it out. Not saying it's right but it is being used as a unsaid tactic. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 1 hour ago, radoran said: According to capfriendly Laughton is now the highest paid center under $2.5M who is 27 or younger. If you bump that level to $3M he's fourth, with a $500K gap between him and 3 (Danton Heinen). That's not "signing for market value," that's setting the market this feels a little cherry picked to me. I do seem to remember a guy around here not wanting to give credit to a player for scoring the most points in the last how-ever-many years. But this, very specific, metric is "A-Okay"? my cat who is the greyest 10 lb cat of cats under 12 pounds would bury this part of your post in her litter box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) 53 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: this feels a little cherry picked to me. I do seem to remember a guy around here not wanting to give credit to a player for scoring the most points in the last how-ever-many years. But this, very specific, metric is "A-Okay"? my cat who is the greyest 10 lb cat of cats under 12 pounds would bury this part of your post in her litter box. I do feel that metrics based on periods in which a player played more games than others who had higher point per game ratios is cherry picked. Looking at players in the same age range signing contracts around the same level? Less so. From where I sit, if your contract offer is at the top end of that range you are more setting the market than "paying market value." YMMV, which is fair. Adding, for the record, I give Giroux all the credit in the world for accomplishing something that, in the grand scheme of things, meant absolutely nothing. Edited July 13, 2019 by radoran Adding... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 2 hours ago, radoran said: According to capfriendly Laughton is now the highest paid center under $2.5M who is 27 or younger. If you bump that level to $3M he's fourth, with a $500K gap between him and 3 (Danton Heinen). That's not "signing for market value," that's setting the market Red Robin is the best burger place among burger places between Park and 11th avenue on US-15 in Selinsgrove, PA among restaurants with a seating capacity above 70 people but below 200 and which opened since 2005 but before 2011. They're trendsetters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, ruxpin said: Red Robin is the best burger place among burger places between Park and 11th avenue on US-15 in Selinsgrove, PA among restaurants with a seating capacity above 70 people but below 200 and which opened since 2005 but before 2011. They're trendsetters. How do you judge market value? Looking at what players in the same age range in the same contract range with similar production are getting is out of bounds? Interesting. Edited July 13, 2019 by radoran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 To be clear here, I would honestly prefer not to give two ***** what Laughton - or any player - is making. My perspective on this is coloured by the fact we've lost a season and a half of hockey in the past 15 years because of contracts the owners offered and that they have forced us to make a salary cap part of the evaluation of players as a result. It sucks, but that's the place in which we've been put. And I can see - not just in contracts the Flyers have offered - us heading towards anothe CBA crisis that threatens a lockout or a strike or whatever leading to more lost hockey. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 12 minutes ago, radoran said: How do you judge market value? Looking at what players in the same age range in the same contract range with similar production are getting is out of bounds? Interesting. I didn't say that. Are you implying that my criteria for picking the best burger place was strange or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, ruxpin said: I didn't say that. Are you implying that my criteria for picking the best burger place was strange or something? OK, what DID you say then? Sometimes I can't make heads or tales out of my, er, um, your posts... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FD19372 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 31 minutes ago, ruxpin said: Red Robin is the best burger place among burger places between Park and 11th avenue on US-15 in Selinsgrove, PA among restaurants with a seating capacity above 70 people but below 200 and which opened since 2005 but before 2011. They're trendsetters. What? No Five Guys. If you're going to have a burger, have one with 20 lbs. of grease dripping off of it. Good enough to kill ya. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 32 minutes ago, FD19372 said: What? No Five Guys. If you're going to have a burger, have one with 20 lbs. of grease dripping off of it. Good enough to kill ya. Lol. I'm not a fan of Red Robin and randomly picked it, but I really dislike Five Guys. I don't have a big sampling and it's quite possible it's just the local management or something, but I wasn't remotely impressed (hated it). I can get much better, fresher burgers for much cheaper elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, mojo1917 said: Think of your last job interview where the company lowballed your salary, were they your first choice? I've never applied or interviewed with a company in which all the similar companies were limited to the same number of employees and a cap on what they could spend on payroll. And it's been a long time since I've worked at a company with an annual and equal supply of upcoming talent. Edited July 14, 2019 by ruxpin 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 19 hours ago, radoran said: Looking at players in the same age range signing contracts around the same level? Less so. From where I sit, if your contract offer is at the top end of that range you are more setting the market than "paying market value." I'm not done with this. I do agree with your point that it seems another lock out is coming because owners and GM's can't seem to control themselves. But if they do control themselves isn't it called collusion ? Isn't this why there are zero offer sheets and don't come back with Aho, that was a weak sauce attempt to use that "tool", isn't this why of the 3 top young defensemen in the league zero have signed rfa deals ? In Laughton's case, let's compare him to players with similar production as well ? his deal of 2.3 AAV sets up as being better value than Alex Iafallo's and Joel Armia's whose stats by the way are far worse than Laughts Using these contracts this deal doesn't "set a market" it aligns with the market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 18 hours ago, ruxpin said: I've never applied or interviewed with a company in which all the similar companies were limited to the same number of employees and a cap on what they could spend on payroll. And it's been a long time since I've worked at a company with an annual and equal supply of upcoming talent. Doesn't seem much like a free market system does it ? I stand by my statement though, squabbling with a guy over 300k can make for a bad relationship. If the guy feels like he's been treated fairly he'll be less likely to make a "business decision" when it's time to block a shot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 56 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: Doesn't seem much like a free market system does it ? I stand by my statement though, squabbling with a guy over 300k can make for a bad relationship. If the guy feels like he's been treated fairly he'll be less likely to make a "business decision" when it's time to block a shot. I agree that it can, but then I'd argue that neither party has the foggiest idea what system they're beholden to. I know this is more a general discussion of it on your part, but in the specific case of Laughton, I think he's easily replaceable by someone for whom $1.8M is a raise. So, for every "we didn't give Laughton the extra $300K" there's the other guy who got an extra $300K. It comes out in the wash. Especially when you then have money to give a player like Konecny or Provorov who are actually contributing something noticeable. Not that Laughton isn't contributing anything. He is. I think he does a decent job for where he is in the roster. But I think the "bad press" of holding firm on the $300K gets suppressed by the kid who gets a chance and the headline of the amount to Konecny and/or Provorov. Because I do think the cap/restricted number of contracts is a big difference from you or me going to an interview and haggling over a few thousand dollars. At least on the surface. Even in that instance, department/division budgets, etc. dictate it, but it's not as transparent as the example of the NHL. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FD19372 Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 1 hour ago, ruxpin said: I agree that it can, but then I'd argue that neither party has the foggiest idea what system they're beholden to. I know this is more a general discussion of it on your part, but in the specific case of Laughton, I think he's easily replaceable by someone for whom $1.8M is a raise. So, for every "we didn't give Laughton the extra $300K" there's the other guy who got an extra $300K. It comes out in the wash. Especially when you then have money to give a player like Konecny or Provorov who are actually contributing something noticeable. Not that Laughton isn't contributing anything. He is. I think he does a decent job for where he is in the roster. But I think the "bad press" of holding firm on the $300K gets suppressed by the kid who gets a chance and the headline of the amount to Konecny and/or Provorov. Because I do think the cap/restricted number of contracts is a big difference from you or me going to an interview and haggling over a few thousand dollars. At least on the surface. Even in that instance, department/division budgets, etc. dictate it, but it's not as transparent as the example of the NHL. I'm not going to show much contempt, or quibble over a contract such as Laughton's, )it's fairly reasonable) but I really wish that a lot of these guys such as Laughton would have more incentive based contracts. Not just the 4th liners but the 1st liners as well. Do the owners and GMs of these clubs not realize that with some of the contracts being doled out, that they are heading toward another lockout? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 12 hours ago, mojo1917 said: But if they do control themselves isn't it called collusion ? Isn't this why there are zero offer sheets and don't come back with Aho, that was a weak sauce attempt to use that "tool", isn't this why of the 3 top young defensemen in the league zero have signed rfa deals ? It is collusion. And you make good poi ts with Armia and Iafallo - which dovetail nicely with my concern about the overall tendency to overpay. And I noted that in my post regarding players of the relative age under $3M (where Laughton is fourth). If you're top five, you're at the top of the market.so let's change the terminology from "set the market" to "lead the market." Again, my concern here isn't so much "is this market value" as much as it is "is this the kind of thing that will lead to another lockout." Leading a market that's possibly unsustainable isn't a good thing. It's the logic that led to the Great Recession. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 On 7/13/2019 at 11:47 AM, FD19372 said: What? No Five Guys. If you're going to have a burger, have one with 20 lbs. of grease dripping off of it. Good enough to kill ya. Just remember: grease is a condiment. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Random thoughts. -The AAV isn't outrageous, but Fletcher certainly paid full dollar. -If Laughton plays 3C it's fine. If he plays a lot more 4th line, it's a bit pricey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 5 hours ago, JR Ewing said: Just remember: grease is a condiment. It's not the grease that's going to kill you....it's the bun...but hey that's a whole different argument... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.