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RonJeremy

Trouba signed for 8million for 7 years..what do we pay Provorov

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I assume Provorov is gonna want 7 million but  5.5 to

6 million is more reasonable. 

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18 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

I assume Provorov is gonna want 7 million but  5.5 to

6 million is more reasonable. 

 

This has no bearing on Provorov and his contract.

 

They will get signed soon I think.

 

I think for around 6.5 mill per season.

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Posted (edited)

RJ,

 

So youre saying Trouba is better than Provorov?

Edited by CoachX

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2 hours ago, CoachX said:

So youre saying Trouba is better than Provorov?

 

This in fact is difficult to answer. They are different types of Dmen. Personally, I prefer Provy, but that could be 'cause I'm a homer. But I also like his overall game better, as a player. That might just be a hockey preference I have. 

 

But ask the question another way: which of the two is more likely to win the Norris? The answer to that I believe is Provorov. 

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I was reading an article that outlines how the Trouba deal doesnt have any impact on Provy, and is not an indicator of what he will get. The Flyers have more leverage

 

I honeslty dont think there is anything to worry about. Its all about who will blink first, then the dominos will fall. My guess is TK has to sit and wait til Provy gets his, to find out what's left

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1 hour ago, CoachX said:

I was reading an article that outlines how the Trouba deal doesnt have any impact on Provy

 

It's not an article it's just my post two back...

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, CoachX said:

RJ,

 

So youre saying Trouba is better than Provorov?

Not saying Trouba is better, he has just been in the league longer, so I figured if he got that amount , Provy would get a bit less since he has hasn’t been around as long . If last season,   Provy had a similar season to his second year , we would be looking at 8 million.

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1 hour ago, RonJeremy said:

Not saying Trouba is better, he has just been in the league longer, so I figured if he got that amount , Provy would get a bit less since he has hasn’t been around as long . If last season,   Provy had a similar season to his second year , we would be looking at 8 million.

 

Plus Provorov doesn't have arbitration rights....Trouba is one year away from being a UFA too...or was...

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The whole conundrum with Provorov right now is that Werenski and McAvoy haven't signed yet and all three will be tied to each other when they sign. This is going to be a long, drawn out process and it's something that probably won't get done until training camp. The fact that the Flyers and Provorov's agent are speaking is a good sign. The contract negotiations with Konecny are starting to worry me. This is a contract that should have been done. Konecny's deal shouldn't be hard to complete. Two years of 40+ even strength points per year. 20 goals each year. No real power play time either. It shouldn't take this long to get a deal in place.

 

As for Trouba, I expect in 3 or 4 years, the Rangers are going to regret that contract they gave him. 50 points in a contract year and then the rest of the time, he's a 22 to 30 point defenseman. 

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I dont think they can sign TK until after Provy. If they do they could lose some leverage in the amount of cap space they use for negotiating

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I think the Trouba deal will actually influence the Provorov deal more than is being said here.    I understand some of the arguments being made and they are valid.  But I think the Trouba deal will influence Provorov's relevant comparables and, therefore, Provorov.  And I think the player that will be the entry point will be Werenski, mostly because Columbus has the money to spend and is looking to prove they'll spend it. 

Werenski will get at least Trouba money and that will affect Provorov. 

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22 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

The whole conundrum with Provorov right now is that Werenski and McAvoy haven't signed yet and all three will be tied to each other when they sign. This is going to be a long, drawn out process and it's something that probably won't get done until training camp. The fact that the Flyers and Provorov's agent are speaking is a good sign. The contract negotiations with Konecny are starting to worry me. This is a contract that should have been done. Konecny's deal shouldn't be hard to complete. Two years of 40+ even strength points per year. 20 goals each year. No real power play time either. It shouldn't take this long to get a deal in place.

 

As for Trouba, I expect in 3 or 4 years, the Rangers are going to regret that contract they gave him. 50 points in a contract year and then the rest of the time, he's a 22 to 30 point defenseman. 

 

TK should get about 4.5-5mill tops on a nice bridge deal.

 

Not sure what he and his agent are up too.

 

Not been much mentioned about him.

 

6.5 mill per for Ivan on a 2 or 3 year prove it deal is good by me.

 

He's had a nice year followed by a crappy year he would have more leverage if his nice year was the most recent one but that isn't the case.

 

You're only as good as your last game or in this case last season.

 

Hopefully it gets worked out before camp so everyone can concentrate on learning the new system and their new teammates.

 

 

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Flyers have around 13 mil in cap, i think.

 

4 mil for TK, 6.5 for Provy, 2.5 for Maroon

 

All is happy in my world

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1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

I think the Trouba deal will actually influence the Provorov deal more than is being said here.    I understand some of the arguments being made and they are valid.  But I think the Trouba deal will influence Provorov's relevant comparables and, therefore, Provorov.  And I think the player that will be the entry point will be Werenski, mostly because Columbus has the money to spend and is looking to prove they'll spend it. 

Werenski will get at least Trouba money and that will affect Provorov. 

 

Completely disagree.

 

The only similarity is they are defensemen.

 

That's it.

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38 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Flyers have around 13 mil in cap, i think.

 

4 mil for TK, 6.5 for Provy, 2.5 for Maroon

 

All is happy in my world

 

They can add another 1.4 mill to that if they decide to send NAK and Lyon down.

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16 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Completely disagree.

 

The only similarity is they are defensemen.

 

That's it.

I have no idea how one makes the assertion. 

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13 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I have no idea how one makes the assertion. 

 

Trouba is one year away from UFA status coming off a 50 point season were he made 5+ with arbitration rights.

 

Ivan is in the last year of his entry level contract with a good and then a bad year and zero arbitration rights.

 

Where am I not making sense with this.

 

No similarities.

 

Besides being both play defense.

 

And your point that they are?

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I can see TK getting around what Alex Tuch signed for.

 

Maybe not the term but the 4.7 AAV.

 

And what Rheinhart got 2 yr 3.6 AAV.

 

So somewhere between those numbers.

 

Guesstimate only.

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3 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

They can add another 1.4 mill to that if they decide to send NAK and Lyon down.

BLASPHEMY!

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2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Trouba is one year away from UFA status coming off a 50 point season were he made 5+ with arbitration rights.

 

Ivan is in the last year of his entry level contract with a good and then a bad year and zero arbitration rights.

 

Where am I not making sense with this.

 

No similarities.

 

Besides being both play defense.

 

And your point that they are?

 

My point is that you can make a comparison in stats with Werenski and Trouba.    The connection never has to be made between Provorov and Trouba directly for it to be relevant.

 

For Werenski vs. Trouba:  #8 overall vs. #9.   3 years difference and the contract situation is certainly different, but there can be an argument made production vs. production.   Pretend for a moment that *Werenski's* agent is able to successfully make that comparison relevant and gets Werenski in that ballpark.  And get slightly more because Werenski is younger.  

 

NOW, you have a relevant comparison for Provorov's agent to make:   Provorov vs. Werenski.   This is why I think Trouba could ultimately be relevant.  

 

I don't perceive the same "whisper down the lane" effect with McAvoy, but that's only because I thought Boston had less cap space than they do (I just looked).    I still think Columbus can be quite a bit more free with their spending and may have the urge to show their fan base they can lock up a player (after losing everyone including the Dominoes delivery guy).

 

 

But yeah, I don't think there's a straight line comparison between Trouba and Provorov.  I mean, I suppose there could be, but I don't think so.  It's just that I don't think it's completely irrelevant because it could affect Provorov by way of Werenski.

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17 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

My point is that you can make a comparison in stats with Werenski and Trouba.    The connection never has to be made between Provorov and Trouba directly for it to be relevant.

 

For Werenski vs. Trouba:  #8 overall vs. #9.   3 years difference and the contract situation is certainly different, but there can be an argument made production vs. production.   Pretend for a moment that *Werenski's* agent is able to successfully make that comparison relevant and gets Werenski in that ballpark.  And get slightly more because Werenski is younger.  

 

NOW, you have a relevant comparison for Provorov's agent to make:   Provorov vs. Werenski.   This is why I think Trouba could ultimately be relevant.  

 

I don't perceive the same "whisper down the lane" effect with McAvoy, but that's only because I thought Boston had less cap space than they do (I just looked).    I still think Columbus can be quite a bit more free with their spending and may have the urge to show their fan base they can lock up a player (after losing everyone including the Dominoes delivery guy).

 

 

But yeah, I don't think there's a straight line comparison between Trouba and Provorov.  I mean, I suppose there could be, but I don't think so.  It's just that I don't think it's completely irrelevant because it could affect Provorov by way of Werenski.

I get your point. To me it seems like Trouba was in a better negotiating position due to all the factors surrounding arbitration and free agency. Provo diesnt have that leverage. The could have both produced exactley the same and still gotten different pay days. Its very much like why Hayes was able to drive up his salary.  The players can be apples to apples but the negotiating position isnt. Plus, if Provy wants to be a flyer, his agent will make that happen regardless of what player X got

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, CoachX said:

I get your point. To me it seems like Trouba was in a better negotiating position due to all the factors surrounding arbitration and free agency. Provo diesnt have that leverage. The could have both produced exactley the same and still gotten different pay days. Its very much like why Hayes was able to drive up his salary.  The players can be apples to apples but the negotiating position isnt. Plus, if Provy wants to be a flyer, his agent will make that happen regardless of what player X got

 

Right, but your post doesn't seem to indicate you understand this isn't  about a Trouba to Provorov comparison (neither stats nor circumstance).  The argument is Trouba to Werenski and then Werenski to Provorov.

 

Your point about Provorov vs. Trouba is, I think, valid.   And frankly, it should be the same argument as Trouba/Werenski.  But I think Werenski and Columbus is different than Provorov/Flyers.    All of this is based on the idea that Columbus will feel the need to overpay given they just lost Panarin, Bob, the ice cream guy, the security guard, etc.    And they could very likely use Trouba as the measuring stick.

 

If that becomes the case, then it is very easy and understandable for Provy's agent to make the Werenski/Provorov comparison.  We've all already acknowledged that Provorov's agent is waiting on Werenski (and McAvoy).  So, if Columbus finds itself giving into a Werenski/Trouba comparison, it becomes relevant to the Flyers.

 

Not because Trouba/Provorov is valid, but because Werenski/Provorov IS.

 

And this, by the way, is not a new concept.  It's frankly how the upward salary pressure we've all watched over the years has happened:   Someone--player A--gets successfully (but arguably illegitimately) compared to someone else--player C--in a different circumstance and gets paid more than he actually should.  That's immediately followed by (at best) someone equal to player A saying they should get player A's deal.  Or worse, player C is lesser than player A but successfully repeats the A-B comparison.  Suddenly you have player C--two levels down--on the same pay scale as player B.

 

Way too many letters going on there, so hopefully you followed that because I think I just confused myself.

 

All this to say that Werenski would be the pivot player that could cause Trouba's pay to be relevant to Provorov despite the fact that, as a direct line, it has no business being so.

Edited by ruxpin

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38 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

My point is that you can make a comparison in stats with Werenski and Trouba.    The connection never has to be made between Provorov and Trouba directly for it to be relevant.

 

For Werenski vs. Trouba:  #8 overall vs. #9.   3 years difference and the contract situation is certainly different, but there can be an argument made production vs. production.   Pretend for a moment that *Werenski's* agent is able to successfully make that comparison relevant and gets Werenski in that ballpark.  And get slightly more because Werenski is younger.  

 

NOW, you have a relevant comparison for Provorov's agent to make:   Provorov vs. Werenski.   This is why I think Trouba could ultimately be relevant.  

 

I don't perceive the same "whisper down the lane" effect with McAvoy, but that's only because I thought Boston had less cap space than they do (I just looked).    I still think Columbus can be quite a bit more free with their spending and may have the urge to show their fan base they can lock up a player (after losing everyone including the Dominoes delivery guy).

 

 

But yeah, I don't think there's a straight line comparison between Trouba and Provorov.  I mean, I suppose there could be, but I don't think so.  It's just that I don't think it's completely irrelevant because it could affect Provorov by way of Werenski.

 

I don't see it for Werenski either still on his entry level contract with no arbitration rights.

 

And the production isn't enough to get him 8 mill per season unless they go for the 8 year deal then yeah you are going to have to pay if you want him to give up 3 of his UFA years.

 

And that is the only Ivan will get more than the 6.5 mill he is slated for. If he gives up 3 of his UFA years then he can expect to get like an 8 year 64 mill type of deal.

 

Otherwise I think they sign bridge deals.

 

And the Blue Jackets have more money slightly but they have a dumpster fire in goal.

 

So i think they are ear marking some of that to find another goalie before the season starts.

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4 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I don't see it for Werenski either still on his entry level contract with no arbitration rights.

 

And the production isn't enough to get him 8 mill per season unless they go for the 8 year deal then yeah you are going to have to pay if you want him to give up 3 of his UFA years.

 

And that is the only Ivan will get more than the 6.5 mill he is slated for. If he gives up 3 of his UFA years then he can expect to get like an 8 year 64 mill type of deal.

 

Otherwise I think they sign bridge deals.

 

And the Blue Jackets have more money slightly but they have a dumpster fire in goal.

 

So i think they are ear marking some of that to find another goalie before the season starts.

 

This is aside from the Trouba discussion.

 

As a fan or even as a GM, do you want to sign him now for the 8 years and at least have that cost-controlled, or go for the $6.5m bridge and either pay through the nose at UFA or lose him?     I'm not entirely sure how to answer that.  I think they may be at a place currently where they need to do the $6.5M now because it's the least immediately painful and worry about tomorrow tomorrow.  But I think I might try for the 8 year deal.  Not sure, though.

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7 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

I don't see it for Werenski either still on his entry level contract with no arbitration rights.

 

I'm not saying it's justified.  I'm saying there are humans involved.

 

And Kekalainen may feel the need to prove he can tack someone down since he hasn't previously been able to.  You know, keep the fans from realizing NO ONE really wants to stay in Columbus given the choice.

 

It's small, but Columbus is actually a fairly nice town--if it weren't in Ohio.

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      Not saying Trouba is better, he has just been in the league longer, so I figured if he got that amount , Provy would get a bit less since he has hasn’t been around as long . If last season,   Provy had a similar season to his second year , we would be looking at 8 million.
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      Not sure how you can say that Provorov even with a down year put up 97 points in his first three years....and 17 goals his 2nd year.   Trouba put up 72 and hasn't even sniffed double digit goals since his rookie year which was just 10.   Sorry call me a homer if you like but Provorov is the better overall defenseman when talking about the two....and I think his has a higher offensive upside than Trouba.   And I know he is better at defense.   The Rangers a
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      @TropicalFruitGirl26 @ruxpin   One word guys. Atlanta, it's the "new Cleveland". Aside from Coca-Cola, Jimmy Carter's park, Sevendust and MLK...it's awful.   It's hot as hell there, humid too, traffic is bonkers, even when there's "no traffic" you're still sitting in traffic. It is huge, and not very walkable, but since it's so hot when it is walkable... you arrive needing a shower.  Hartsdale-Jackson. Lots of sports teams, not much winning.  Did
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      All they have to do is waive Gabriel and Lyon to the Phantoms and they free up 1.4 mill and either NAK or a kid can plug the 12th forward 3rd line RW spot.   I think Ivan gets a 3 year deal 5mill 6mill 7 mill with a 6mill AAV.   TK get a 3 year 14 deal 4.6 AAV.   That would leave them wih 4.2 mill left.    

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