Is it End of the Line for Morin?

[OccamsRazor]

Well with a new GM that is pretty much everyone in the system who he didn't personally select from Patrick to the equipment guy.

 

I feel Chuckles has the intention of giving everyone a chance who is currently under the Flyer umbrella...Morin no different.

 

They will sort it out. I think he has a place within the club. Guess we'll see because at the end of the day it's what THEY think.

[OccamsRazor]

3 minutes ago, jammer2 said:

It is do or die time for Sam. He does not have to be stunning but solid and dependable are a must at this point. There comes a time in every prospects time line that demands progress, regardless of d men taking longer and injuries in this case. We have reached that point. He simply has to put it all together this fall. Another injury would spell his inevitable end in the org...his fault or not. There comes a time when you have to pull the plug. I have been a big proponent of patience with Sam..but the time to deliver has indeed arrived. 

 

He's under contract for 700K the next two years you will be hard pressed to find a cheaper depth defenseman...I think he seizes this chance.

[jammer2]

16 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Well with a new GM that is pretty much everyone in the system who he didn't personally select from Patrick to the equipment guy.

 

I feel Chuckles has the intention of giving everyone a chance who is currently under the Flyer umbrella...Morin no different.

 

They will sort it out. I think he has a place within the club. Guess we'll see because at the end of the day it's what THEY think.

I think his injury history will not work in his favour...however, valid point...the regime change gives him a somewhat  longer leash. I dont think his skating improves much at this point, his ticket to the NHL will be hockey sense and defensive zone awareness.

Edited August 18, 2019 by jammer2

[ruxpin]

Sam Morin.

 

I like the guy.  I"ve wanted him to succeed.  But @jammer2 is right that it's do or die for him this season.    And @JR Ewing is right that he's not a Fletcher draft pick (or from Minnesota).   Morin doesn't really suffer there more than anyone else because none of the young Flyers' defensemen are Fletcher draft picks.  But I agree that he also won't be given any kind of pass as a result, either.

 

But I'm thinking about the defense currently on the Flyers and those right there.   This has been posted enough that I'm sure people are sick of it, but maybe worth it again in this context.

 

Provorov ~ Niskanen

Sanheim ~ Braun

Gostisbehere ~ Myers

 

Extra:  Morin, Hagg

 

Morin is already going to have hell of a time cracking the line up as is.

 

Then, Friedman is about ready and may already have been ready last September.

Others in the system include Zamula, Ginning, Hogberg, Wylie, Bernhardt, and we just spend a first round draft pick on Cameron York.

 

Myers is probably Morin with offense.   So, it's quite possible Morin's window as a Flyer has already passed and they just need to show he''s healthy before moving him.

 

They didn't get Niskanen or Braun to sit.   Provorov and Sanheim are not going to sit.  I suppose Morin could rotate in and out with Ghost and maybe Myers, but that won't last long.  I don't know, but I don't like Morin's prognosis as a Flyer.

 

[OccamsRazor]

I guess with the ability of hindsight i guess the Flyers could have taken a few guys instead of Sam.

 

Josh Morrissey, Nikita Zadorov and Shea Theodore come to mind. Hey maybe Sam still works out.

 

 

44 days and 23 hours till the puck drops...

 

https://yourcountdown.to/nhl-hockey-season

[ruxpin]

10 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

I guess with the ability of hindsight i guess the Flyers could have taken a few guys instead of Sam.

 

Josh Morrissey, Nikita Zadorov and Shea Theodore come to mind. Hey maybe Sam still works out.

 

 

44 days and 23 hours till the puck drops...

 

https://yourcountdown.to/nhl-hockey-season

I'm good with the pick. I've always defended him and continue to. 

 

But the prognosis for him as a Flyer doesn't look great. He could very well go on to have a great career. I'm not sure it's here.   It's more the injuries than his fault. 

[RonJeremy]

I think,  as always,  there will be injuries and Morin will get to step in and that's when Morin has to step up. He has to show  elements that no other Flyer dman can match, which is toughness , protection of teammates  and he has to show shutdown ability  and use his incredible reach.  He has to play a smart game and not goon it up. If he can become half the dman that Chara is, then it's a bonus for us. Unfortunately,  sitting in the press box for who knows how long, is not gonna help his game grow and improve. I think he will be given every chance to beat out Haag and if Ghost is eventually traded or taken in expansion, he will get a real chance. Nobody has his size, toughness and reach. He can become a great shutdown guy.

[OccamsRazor]

19 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

But the prognosis for him as a Flyer doesn't look great

 

I don't see why that is??

 

He is signed for a very good deal and isn't hurting anyone by being the 7th or 8th defenseman.

 

If anything it's Hagg who is only signed for the upcoming year who should be worried....he doesn't have a spot in the top 6 and is 400K more expensive than Sam and Morin can do anything Robert can do.

 

If Sam shows he can contribute it will push Hagg out the door sometime this year or at least by the trade deadline.

 

Sam just has to stay healthy and even in 2020-21 he will be a nice option for depth on the back end for only 700K.

 

Injuries happen and before you know it first week of the season he could be on the bottom pair.

 

 

[JR Ewing]

16 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I don't see why that is??

 

Sam just has to stay healthy and even in 2020-21 he will be a nice option for depth on the back end for only 700K.

 

Injuries happen and before you know it first week of the season he could be on the bottom pair.

 

 

 

It could also just as well be him that's hurt, given his history. He's never played a completely full season, but did play full-ish seasons in 2012, 2016 and 2017. That impacts development, and it also impacts the decisions that a team makes when they're considering a player's future in their organization. We see it every year across the league.

[OccamsRazor]

2 minutes ago, JR Ewing said:

 

It could also just as well be him that's hurt, given his history. He's never played a completely full season, but did play full-ish seasons in 2012, 2016 and 2017. That impacts development, and it also impacts the decisions that a team makes when they're considering a player's future in their organization. We see it every year across the league.

 

Sure and with his contract i think they keep him around unless they can get a good deal for him.

 

He isn't hurting anything being a 7th Dman those guys have a place in the lineup too he just turned 24 so no need to rush and make a decision.

 

It will sort itself out once they get on the ice and play some games.

[ruxpin]

10 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

I don't see why that is?

I laid out very clearly why. Honestly, the rest of your post doesn't actually help his prognosis -- or at least address what is likely pushing him out.

 

I didn't even mention Hagg. And for a reason: Hagg has a similar problem except that his isn't due to the misfortune of injury.  So Morin passes Hagg. That just gets him first officer of the popcorn brigade. I don't think using Morin as a 7th is wise given his extremely limited experience. It's not good for him and it's an extremely poor use of an asset. It's also something a GM does to try to save his pick and project. Morin is not Fletcher's pick or project. Also, at this stage of their careers, Hagg probably makes the better 7th.

 

Sure, an injury to the top six helps him but it's probably only a temporary thing and it's a thing where it's not really him controlling destiny. It's more or less an opportunity for an audition for elsewhere. 

 

His contact, if it's relevant at all, helps him be movable. 

 

Nothing you wrote changes the fact that his unfortunate string of injuries has put him in a place where he is behind a ton of people and a ton of people are close to catching and passing him. 

 

I think he can have a good career, but he's likely bottom three here at his ceiling. And given the situation that isn't really his doing, it's likely it's elsewhere. 

Edited August 19, 2019 by ruxpin

[elmatus]

1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

I think he can have a good career, but he's likely bottom three here at his ceiling. And given the situation that isn't really his doing, it's likely it's elsewhere. 

 

You're quite possibly right. Though I think he'll be given at least a couple years before Fletch chooses to move on. Niskanen and Braun are temporary stop gaps and should almost certainly not be resigned in either case. Fletch should want to have as many options as possible gunning for those two spots in the line up, and I'd say that includes Morin.

 

Whether he can seize that opportunity between now and when Niskanen comes off the books is harder to say, but I expect he'll be given the opportunity. If at the end of the day he proves to be no more than a career AHLer, well then fair enough. If he chooses to sign elsewhere for another opportunity, that's his call. But to me the addition of two short term vets means he gets a bit longer to figure things out.

[OccamsRazor]

5 hours ago, ruxpin said:

I laid out very clearly why.

 

Then we don't agree. There guess we'll see soon.

[OccamsRazor]

4 hours ago, elmatus said:

Though I think he'll be given at least a couple years before Fletch chooses to move on. Niskanen and Braun are temporary stop gaps and should almost certainly not be resigned in either case. Fletch should want to have as many options as possible gunning for those two spots in the line up, and I'd say that includes Morin.

 

Exactly.

 

He states that his injuries have set him back and then his cheap contract should make him movable and yet then says he lacks experience which brings him no value to the Flyers yet it does to some other team....none of that makes sense...which is it??

 

Is he movable yet he doesn't have experience means you move him for nothing, sounds like you're better off keeping him.

 

Regardless i have stated my case on this and have said we will find out and we will...no sense in talking about it anymore at least on my end for possibly at the point a depth defenseman till he proves otherwise.

 

Don't let me stop you guys have at it.

 

The guy torn his acl late in the year in the playoffs for the Phantoms and basically missed a whole calendar year of playing.

 

Glad they didn't give up on Ghost after he tore his acl which i have done and some guys come back quicker than others.

[ruxpin]

38 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

He states that his injuries have set him back and then his cheap contract should make him movable and yet then says he lacks experience which brings him no value to the Flyers yet it does to some other team....none of that makes sense...which is it??

 

Is he movable yet he doesn't have experience means you move him for nothing, sounds like you're better off keeping him.

Well, it makes sense if another team can actually use him whereas here he'd be a 7th and part time at best hoping someone steps on a banana peel. I mean, where does he legitimately fit here? 

 

I'm not saying run him out of town, i really still believe he can be successful. But he's facing a real roster numbers crunch here that he may not elsewhere. 

 

I actually believe he'll probably end up being a real pain in the butt to play against elsewhere, but i don't know how he develops here.  By the time he has that window (Braun leaving, for example) someone behind him may be passing him. 

 

Unless you're moving someone else (Ghost?). That's a legitimate option, too. In which case, never mind. 

[OccamsRazor]

3 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I mean, where does he legitimately fit here? 

 

I said i was done talking about him but i will one last time for you just so as i make it clear on what i have seen with him.

 

Without seeing him actually play within the new staff system i can't really say where he slots but he has a place within the blueline in my eyes.

 

But after watching him very hard last year in the last 5 games of the year (the only reason i painfully watched was to see him and how he looked that and NAK) i thought he moved very well having not really played for a whole years besides two games with the Phantoms.

 

But as of right now you have 4 defensemen on the books for 2020-21. Braun if not traded at the deadline could just be left to walk.

 

Hagg will be looking for a new deal and may want close to double by then for what he is making now which would put him right at 2 mill so they could just trade his rights at the draft if he isn't moved during this upcoming season.

 

But after watching Sam play last year i am optimistic he can do everything Hagg can he looked very solid last year.

 

Stayed positionally sound, didn't go looking for the hit that took him out of the play (ala Luke Schenn) was physical leaning on guys at the top of the crease not just trying to blow guys up and made the stick lift when it seemed fit.

 

I thought he looked more like he knew where he needed to be than Hagg who always sometimes looks to be questioning himself like he isn't sure where he should be or who he should cover.

 

Basically like a stay at home should nothing flashy but more importantly to me that he wasn't showing like he favored his injured leg.

 

So if he continues where he left off for 700K the next two years i can see him here.

 

He has all the tools you need to work with and then some with a big physical stay at home type who can still skate. I think he can bring something the Flyers lack on the backend in their current set of defenseman. And he can be there when they need to insert it.

 

And as i said earlier i am going off of what i seen at the end of last year...it's all i got as of right now.

 

If i am GM i'm keeping him and moving Hagg out because of the things i have seen from Hagg that scare me even from all his experience that is still in his game. I take a 3rd or 4th for him right now and move on.

 

But hey that is me.

 

But if i can't get that type of pick for him then i roll with Morin and Hagg as my 7th and 8th guys and roll with 13th forwards.

 

Chuckles will more than likely sneakily use Stewart as his emergency 14th forward type.

 

He is on a PTO and can practice with the team and travel with the team and until he actually plays won't need a contract and won't count towards the roster limit till he signs a deal so he can last the rest of the year on his PTO if they get lucky.

 

So this is all i am going to say on Sam till i get to watch him play in the preseason.

[ruxpin]

50 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I said i was done talking about him but i will one last time for you just so as i make it clear on what i have seen with him.

 

Without seeing him actually play within the new staff system i can't really say where he slots but he has a place within the blueline in my eyes.

 

But after watching him very hard last year in the last 5 games of the year (the only reason i painfully watched was to see him and how he looked that and NAK) i thought he moved very well having not really played for a whole years besides two games with the Phantoms.

 

But as of right now you have 4 defensemen on the books for 2020-21. Braun if not traded at the deadline could just be left to walk.

 

Hagg will be looking for a new deal and may want close to double by then for what he is making now which would put him right at 2 mill so they could just trade his rights at the draft if he isn't moved during this upcoming season.

 

But after watching Sam play last year i am optimistic he can do everything Hagg can he looked very solid last year.

 

Stayed positionally sound, didn't go looking for the hit that took him out of the play (ala Luke Schenn) was physical leaning on guys at the top of the crease not just trying to blow guys up and made the stick lift when it seemed fit.

 

I thought he looked more like he knew where he needed to be than Hagg who always sometimes looks to be questioning himself like he isn't sure where he should be or who he should cover.

 

Basically like a stay at home should nothing flashy but more importantly to me that he wasn't showing like he favored his injured leg.

 

So if he continues where he left off for 700K the next two years i can see him here.

 

He has all the tools you need to work with and then some with a big physical stay at home type who can still skate. I think he can bring something the Flyers lack on the backend in their current set of defenseman. And he can be there when they need to insert it.

 

And as i said earlier i am going off of what i seen at the end of last year...it's all i got as of right now.

 

If i am GM i'm keeping him and moving Hagg out because of the things i have seen from Hagg that scare me even from all his experience that is still in his game. I take a 3rd or 4th for him right now and move on.

 

But hey that is me.

 

But if i can't get that type of pick for him then i roll with Morin and Hagg as my 7th and 8th guys and roll with 13th forwards.

 

Chuckles will more than likely sneakily use Stewart as his emergency 14th forward type.

 

He is on a PTO and can practice with the team and travel with the team and until he actually plays won't need a contract and won't count towards the roster limit till he signs a deal so he can last the rest of the year on his PTO if they get lucky.

 

So this is all i am going to say on Sam till i get to watch him play in the preseason.

For whatever it's worth, I don't disagree with your assessment of Morin's play last year. And I don't disagree with your saying he looked better than Hagg (and I actually like Hagg better than most despite the fact his numbers aren't all that great). 

 

We'll see how it shakes out.  I don't see them doing anything before mid-year, so I think what you describe will likely be the case out of the gate.  I don't think anyone takes a run at Morin before they're satisfied he's healthy and ready.   Don't know, I'm just not sure he fits long term, but I don't know what they're doing with others, so I don't think you're wrong.  Just that if I had to bet... 

 

I'm glad I don't. 

[OccamsRazor]

4 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

We'll see how it shakes out.

 

Exactly and to be clear I am not saying I am any authority on the matter or know more than anyone here just stating my opinion on what I have seen and drawing a slight conclusion.

 

And am I in Morin's corner? Absolutely.

 

However if he doesn't look good or shows that he may need a change of scenery I will try to be the first to admit it.

 

But I hope I don't have to he plays well and that solves that....for now...don't and well he could be shipped out.

[murraycraven]

3 hours ago, ruxpin said:

part time at best hoping someone steps on a banana peel

 

 

 

[LegionOfDoom]

In watching Morin play last year, he was the only defensemen and I mean only defensemen those last games that had his head on a swivel. He actively scoped the crease and when going behind the crease, he actually looked back on the opposite side to see if anyone was gonna sneak to the other side of the crease. He was high IQ, smart enough to guard his area like an Alsatian Wolfhound.

i very much liked his demeanor and sense of purpose. He had that slick goal, I believe in preseason, when he was a lock to start the season but was hurt. He has a cannon of a shot when he decides to unleash it.

Braun and Niskanen are placeholders, they are here this year to stabilize our defense, I appreciate them for what they were brought in to do. They are short term. Sam Morin can definitely be a part of the long term defensive plan and be a 3 or 4 defensemen, but due to so much defensive talent coming possibly up, they will probably use him as 5 or 6, unless deep playoffs potential shutdown last minute hold the lead type situation.

[LegionOfDoom]

I remember reading about him and Ghost as our top defensemen in the AHL and how well they complemented each other as a defensive pairing.

They were our top prospects before we even entertained such things as a Proverovs, Sanheims, Myers or Yorks in our lineup.

They are serviceable, Punto.

[OccamsRazor]

8 hours ago, LegionOfDoom said:

He was high IQ, smart enough to guard his area like an Alsatian Wolfhound.

 

And not to bust his balls but that is supposed to be Hagg's strong suit as well and i don't know how many times i had seen him camped out front looking the part to guard the crease but time and time again getting beat leaving guys open or just getting out right beat to loose pucks just sitting there.

 

I'm not doing this to bash Hagg but i am saying it is time to see if Sam can do better and if he can that is what will make Hagg expendable maybe. If Sam can he will be relegated to the 7th or 8th spot till they do something otherwise with him.

 

I don't think Sam has to come out and set the world on fire offensively he just has to come out and play smart sound defense and give his partner and chance to jump in and support the offense and he stays back to guard the fort in case of a turnover and a rush comes back the other way.

 

I think he is up for the task.

[ruxpin]

6 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I don't think Sam has to come out and set the world on fire offensively he just has to come out and play smart sound defense and give his partner and chance to jump in and support the offense and he stays back to guard the fort in case of a turnover and a rush comes back the other way

This. That's all he needs to do. If he does this effectively, it's gold. 

 

And I agree. I think he's up to the task. 

[LegionOfDoom]

And that there is what I saw him do In those games. Call it paying attention to details or OCD in making sure he was where he was supposed to be at. You could almost see his thought process as he was covering up and down the lanes, ya he realized when he messed up, but he actively tried to make up for his rookie mistake with intent and hustle. I think he continues that trajectory this year.

[King Knut]

7 hours ago, LegionOfDoom said:

In watching Morin play last year, he was the only defensemen and I mean only defensemen those last games that had his head on a swivel. He actively scoped the crease and when going behind the crease, he actually looked back on the opposite side to see if anyone was gonna sneak to the other side of the crease. He was high IQ, smart enough to guard his area like an Alsatian Wolfhound.

i very much liked his demeanor and sense of purpose. He had that slick goal, I believe in preseason, when he was a lock to start the season but was hurt. He has a cannon of a shot when he decides to unleash it.

Braun and Niskanen are placeholders, they are here this year to stabilize our defense, I appreciate them for what they were brought in to do. They are short term. Sam Morin can definitely be a part of the long term defensive plan and be a 3 or 4 defensemen, but due to so much defensive talent coming possibly up, they will probably use him as 5 or 6, unless deep playoffs potential shutdown last minute hold the lead type situation.

 

Morin's hockey sense and overall ability are very very strong.  

 

I (as were many) was a bit astounded when Hakstol chose to go with Haag, thus forcing Hextall to send Morin back to LhV yet another one of the signs Hextall chose to ignore.

 

Hagg wasn't bad at all, but he's very good at being good.  Morin has a lot more potential.  Hakstol saw Hagg as steady and more reliable and saw Morin as having a few more kinks to work out... but what Hakstol failed to value was that Morin's "kinks" were in the name of doing a lot more out there.   It was just preseason and he was likely trying a lot harder than most vets, but as far as I was concerned in terms of vision and presence, Morin already looked like the #2 or #3 D man on this team that fall--which is I know, not saying much at the time, but still...

 

For the time it was in the organization's progression, it was a big mistake and I whined about it then, so I'll whine about it now.  Of course injuries put all of this at least a little bit into question.  

 

He lost almost two full key years in an extremely frustrating way, as much as it pains me to say it, I have to be hesitant in my enthusiasm for the player.  It's just very difficult to tell in a likewise so we'll have to see how long it takes him to regain his confidence and if his body can keep itself healthy.  

 

WIth any luck at all, he can put those things behind him and step into the role he was meant to play as a big time impact player on this team going forward.