Philadelphia Flyers 2019-20 camp/pre season

[radoran]

30 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

not sure I agree with the last concern though. He and the players are trying to find some chemistry, and that involves experimentation, by definition.

 

I hear you. But these guys - aside from Hayes - have been playing with each other for years and three days before the start of the season we shuffle the whole deck?

 

I'm all for experimentation - and I don't anticipate this team will be a juggernaut out of the gate. But one might have hoped they'd be a little further along, eh?

 

26 minutes ago, brelic said:

And it's clear that AV is not enamoured with the core at the moment.

 

Well that's the real issue, isn't it? I get the marginal improvements of the defense and that Kevin Hayes c/should be an improvement at 2C and that they may be a boat anchor or two lighter on the 4th line. Is that marginal improvement in a couple of areas enough to change what was a "garbage" team?

 

To AV's point, it's the core he's not enamoured with that this team was built around - and remains built around. It's also what I've been questioning pretty much ever since they "won the trades".

 

They chased Laviolette out of town. They don't have a first time head coach or a first time NHL coach to fall back on as an excuse - and, for that matter, two of the coaches they ran out of town have since coached in the Stanley Cup Final while the "definitely a playoff team players" have three rounds of playoffs in seven years.. If these players can't get it done at this point, rearranging the coaching staff on the Titanic isn't going to save them.

 

They have two choices now: put up or shut up.

 

8-10-2 a quarter of the way into the season is not what we've been told to expect. FFS, they were 9-9-2 after 20 games last year.

Edited October 1, 2019 by radoran

[fan4ever]

27 minutes ago, radoran said:

They have two choices now: put up or shut up.

 

AMEN to that!!!!

[Podein25]

31 minutes ago, radoran said:

I hear you. But these guys - aside from Hayes - have been playing with each other for years and three days before the start of the season we shuffle the whole deck?

 

I'm all for experimentation - and I don't anticipate this team will be a juggernaut out of the gate. But one might have hoped they'd be a little further along, eh?

 

Well, when you put it that way, I'm hard-pressed to disagree. Fair point.

 

Lol @ "eh?" by the way. You're welcome to visit Canada any day. If you come to the 'Peg, be sure to dump your garbage in the Red River, which is basically a national right of passage.

[brelic]

35 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Well that's the real issue, isn't it? I get the marginal improvements of the defense and that Kevin Hayes c/should be an improvement at 2C and that they may be a boat anchor or two lighter on the 4th line. Is that marginal improvement in a couple of areas enough to change what was a "garbage" team?

 

Did I say garbage team? I probably did, but I meant more "garbage product." I'm willing to see if a real coaching staff can get different results - though the points you bring up below are salient. This isn't the players' first rodeo, and have failed to really show any kind of strong playoff ability in just about a decade. 

 

35 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

To AV's point, it's the core he's not enamoured with that this team was built around - and remains built around. It's also what I've been questioning pretty much ever since they "won the trades".

 

They chased Laviolette out of town. They don't have a first time head coach or a first time NHL coach to fall back on as an excuse - and, for that matter, two of the coaches they ran out of town have since coached in the Stanley Cup Final while the "definitely a playoff team players" have three rounds of playoffs in seven years.. If these players can't get it done at this point, rearranging the coaching staff on the Titanic isn't going to save them.

 

They have two choices now: put up or shut up.

 

8-10-2 a quarter of the way into the season is not what we've been told to expect. FFS, they were 9-9-2 after 20 games last year.

 

My 8-10-2 prediction is non-scientific, and based around these first 5-6 games that could be really rough. Within their first week, they are playing 3 games across 9 time zones. *If* they go something like 1-4-1 in their first 6, yeah, that's not good. Like I said, I'm hoping for 2-2-2 at the worst. Middling, but I'd say successful all things considered.

 

Bottom line, I agree. Put up or shut up. 

 

The Patrick injury is really unfortunate because we're basically in the same position we were last year, thin down the middle. A lot better with Hayes, but a bit weaker with a rookie on the 4th. As much as I think Laughton has a role on this team, I don't think it's with JVR and Lindblom or Farabee. That line will just not generate enough offense to best utilize JVR's strengths. Maybe Frost comes up soon enough and makes things click.

[radoran]

5 hours ago, brelic said:

As much as I think Laughton has a role on this team, I don't think it's with JVR and Lindblom or Farabee. That line will just not generate enough offense to best utilize JVR's strengths

 

I never understood Hakstol starting JVR on the third line and I don't understand Vigneault doing it, either.

 

5 hours ago, brelic said:

I'm willing to see if a real coaching staff can get different results - though the points you bring up below are salient. This isn't the players' first rodeo, and have failed to really show any kind of strong playoff ability in just about a decade. 

 

It'll be interesting to see how the Blackhawks do, as well. They've got a home opener and then seven in a row at home (!?!?)

 

The time zone thing could be a "reason" for a slow start. I just don't want it to be an "excuse."

 

It's gonna come down to how they play when the games start to matter. And they start mattering Friday.

Edited October 1, 2019 by radoran

[brelic]

I was looking for Episode 2 of Behind the Glass, but ended up finding this instead... 

 

 

 

Three things immediately jump out -

 

1 - You could have told me the intro narrative was about this upcoming season, and I'd believe you. Same story, six years later.

 

2 - If you'd told me in 2013 that by 2019, Morin would play in 8 total NHL games, I'd say you're crazy. Plus ça change, plus c'est pareil! 

 

3 - Wow, how much has technology evolved in six years?!?! The production looks absolutely amateur. Crazy times we live in!

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2019 by brelic

[RonJeremy]

@brelic you are absolutely right, it is time for the Flyers to put up or be blown up. We can say for sure that for the last 5- 6 years we had crappy goaltending and inexperienced/ crappy coaching . We now have a successful experienced,  legit NHL coach  and staff and it seems we have a goalie who will at worst , not let in bad momentum killing  goals and is technically the most sound goalie weve had in 30 years. 

 

So if we see the same old routines, slow starts, bad special teams, 10 game losing streaks and lethargic play, then there is no one left to blame but the lack of leadership from Giroux and Voracek . Its a shame there are no Pronger, Poulin, Tocchet type of leaders out there because thats what this team really needs. I really dont see any outspoken tough leaders on this team.

[Podein25]

16 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

Its a shame there are no Pronger, Poulin, Tocchet type of leaders out there

 

Don;t forget Podein!! That guy would give his left nut to win a hockey game and he wasn't even Canadian!

[radoran]

5 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

That guy would give his left nut to win a hockey game and he wasn't even Canadian!

 

Yeah, well, we see how that all worked out for Patrick Thoresen, didn't we?

 

 

 

[Podein25]

@radoran

 

I've never seen that Cheers clip, lol. 

 

And Thoreson, I remember that game like it was yesterday. I remember how impressed Mrs P was with that block. They both wore #25 too, which is kinda cool.

 

I'm just looking at your profile: "2nd Favorite Team: Sabres?" WTAF? Is that just some fine trolling of a certain Halibut loving member from Rochester or did you hit your head or what?

[radoran]

Just now, Podein25 said:

"2nd Favorite Team: Sabres?" WTAF? Is that just some fine trolling of a certain Halibut loving member from Rochester or did you hit your head or what?

 

Lived in Buffalo for a couple years. Really liked the town. They love their sports teams. Sorta rubbed off on me.

 

I have no problem liking the Sabres, although they have sucked even worse than the Flyers... Never the Bills, though. I have seen that team lose games in ways that haven't even been thought of yet. It's quite impressive, actually.

 

Those people really hate the Flyers, though. Which made wearing my Flyers paraphernalia quite fun.

[AJgoal]

Opening roster for tomorrow night:

 

Giroux

Couturier

Konecny

Voracek

Hayes

Lindblom

van Riemsdyk

Laughton

Raffl

Bunnaman

Twarinsky

 

Provorov

Gostisbehere

Sanheim

Niskanen

Braun

Hagg

Morin

 

Hart

Elliott

 

That's right, 11F/7D on opening night because we ran out of cap space.

[OccamsRazor]

3 hours ago, radoran said:

 

They have two choices now: put up or shut up.

 

I've been waiting along time for this day.

 

So we're here finally?

[OccamsRazor]

20 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

That's right, 11F/7D on opening night because we ran out of cap space.

 

Well they have to start the year off the right way...no cap space and then flying all over the world to play a few games awesome.

 

Meanwhile the Blackhawk play then fly home for a 7 game homestand... 

[radoran]

53 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Well they have to start the year off the right way...no cap space and then flying all over the world to play a few games awesome.

 

Meanwhile the Blackhawk play then fly home for a 7 game homestand... 

 

I totally read that wrong, thought they WENT to WPG and EDM.

 

That's some serious b*llsh*t right there.

 

[elmatus]

Yeah, there are no more coaching excuses this year. 

 

As far as the off season pick ups are concerned, I'm not so convinced they were amazing game changers of any real kind. They won't hurt of course, but I don't think they are enough to change this team's fortunes. What will matter far more is whether the coaching staff can make this "garbage" @brelic into a proper playoff team.

 

If this team doesn't take a noticeable step forward, it may very well mean the problem wasn't coaching, but rather the very core the team is built on. That core has been very consistent over these latest "garbage" years. Sooner or later, fingers will start pointing to them.

Edited October 1, 2019 by elmatus

[tucson83]

13 minutes ago, elmatus said:

Yeah, there are no more coaching excuses this year. 

 

As far as the off season pick ups are concerned, I'm not so convinced they were amazing game changers of any real kind. They won't hurt of course, but I don't think they are enough to change this team's fortunes. What will matter far more is whether the coaching staff can make this "garbage" @brelic into a proper playoff team.

 

If this team doesn't take a noticeable step forward, it may very well mean the problem wasn't coaching, but rather the very core the team is built on. That core has been very consistent over these latest "garbage" years. Sooner or later, fingers will start pointing to them.

 

i think this year is going to be a make or break for this core, if we dont make the playoffs, changes to the core have to be done.

 

im going to have to think that the fletch is probably going to take some salary to get rid of jake and giroux, if that's the case so be it.

Edited October 1, 2019 by tucson83

[ruxpin]

5 hours ago, brelic said:

And it's clear that AV is not enamoured with the core at the moment.

 

How many would actually be shocked to learn that the problem is the core.

[ruxpin]

30 minutes ago, elmatus said:

If this team doesn't take a noticeable step forward, it may very well mean the problem wasn't  coaching, but rather also the very core the team is built on

 

Just emphasizing "the" so that I can agree with it.  Regardless of what happens this year, coaching was A problem.

Edited October 1, 2019 by ruxpin

[ruxpin]

18 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

im going to have to think that the fletch is probably going to take some salary to get rid of jake and giroux, if that's the case so be it.

 

Agreed.  If all the changes, the new players, the new coaches, etc., and same result, do what you have to do with the core.   They're not getting any younger and you may as well get what you can.

 

Trading any one of Giroux or Voracek is kind of like the Phillies trading Bobby Abreu 12 or so years ago.  Arguably their best player at the time of the trade, but his leaving really made a world of positive difference.  Different sport and certainly different nuances, but...

[brelic]

2 hours ago, AJgoal said:

Opening roster for tomorrow night:

 

Giroux

Couturier

Konecny

Voracek

Hayes

Lindblom

van Riemsdyk

Laughton

Raffl

Bunnaman

Twarinsky

 

Provorov

Gostisbehere

Sanheim

Niskanen

Braun

Hagg

Morin

 

Hart

Elliott

 

That's right, 11F/7D on opening night because we ran out of cap space.

 

Please tell me you're kidding. Is it cap space, or did they prefer dressing Morin over Farabee? If so, that tells me AV does *not* trust the defense.

 

Either way, this wouldn't have happened if they were, you know, in North America. They would have released/traded/demoted someone, I'm guessing.

 

 

[elmatus]

29 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

How many would actually be shocked to learn that the problem is the core.

 

I wouldn't. I mean, I definitely think the coaching they've had in recent years was *a* problem, as you say. At the same time, it's not the easiest sell to say that coaching was the only problem. Goaltending was one as well, and that's noted, but it's entirely possible this core group just doesn't have what it takes to make a good run.

 

Before someone comes in to blast me on this, I'm not saying this core isn't up to snuff. I'm just saying it is a possibility. And if they can't make some noise this year with three highly experienced coaches and a goalie who should be reasonably good to potentially great, then maybe their problems run deeper than all that. 

 

Again, they picked up some good to decent players over the off season, but they didn't get any real game changers. These aren't guys who will come in and make a subpar team into a contender, nor should they be asked to. That's not the job of a Hayes or a Niskanen; that's the job of a Giroux, Voracek, Couts, Ghost, JVR (maybe Hayes now). Of the bunch, only one wasn't around last year. That's five guys who should be taking a good long look in the mirror this season.

Edited October 1, 2019 by elmatus

[AJgoal]

Just now, brelic said:

 

Please tell me you're kidding. Is it cap space, or did they prefer dressing Morin over Farabee? If so, that tells me AV does *not* trust the defense.

 

Either way, this wouldn't have happened if they were, you know, in North America. They would have released/traded/demoted someone, I'm guessing.

 

 

 

It's cap space. They needed to drop money (they're currently ~$240k under) and the waiver deadline was yesterday. So they demoted Myers and Farabee because they needed space and they were waiver-exempt. They have 20 healthy skaters, though Pitlick might be ready for Friday.

 

I realize there were injuries. But that's why the value that Fletcher gave up at every turn this summer was important. Now, instead of icing an optimized roster, they have to skate down a forward in the first game of the season. They can't carry an extra guy in case someone hurts themselves in warmups. They went from having one of the best cap situations in the league to being trapped into a suboptimal roster on opening night in one offseason. 

[ruxpin]

5 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

I wouldn't. I mean, I definitely think the coaching they've had in recent years was *a* problem, as you say. At the same time, it's not the easiest sell to say that coaching was the only problem. Goaltending was one as well, and that's noted, but it's entirely possible this core group just doesn't have what it takes to make a good run.

 

Before someone comes in to blast me on this, I'm not saying this core isn't up to snuff. I'm just saying it is a possibility. And if they can't make some noise this year with three highly experienced coaches and a goalie who should be reasonably good to potentially great, then maybe their problems run deeper than all that. 

 

Again, they picked up some good to decent players over the off season, but they didn't get any real game changers. These aren't guys who will come in and make a subpar team into a contender, nor should they be asked to. That's not the job of a Hayes or a Niskanen; that's the job of a Giroux, Voracek, Couts, Ghost, JVR (maybe Hayes now). Of the bunch, only one wasn't around last year. That's five guys who should be taking a good long look in the mirror this season.

 

Right.  All this is with the condition, "if they remain the same as last year" in terms of results.  Then, IMO, there's an issue that isn't limited to coaching.  At that point, everything--I mean everything--has been changed except the core.

 

Let it play out and see what happens, but if we're sitting out of the playoffs come February (not because a couple of teams are killing it and we're close but because of Keystone Kops like last year), then it really is the ingredient that needs a very close look.

[brelic]

6 minutes ago, AJgoal said:

 

It's cap space. They needed to drop money (they're currently ~$240k under) and the waiver deadline was yesterday. So they demoted Myers and Farabee because they needed space and they were waiver-exempt. They have 20 healthy skaters, though Pitlick might be ready for Friday.

 

I realize there were injuries. But that's why the value that Fletcher gave up at every turn this summer was important. Now, instead of icing an optimized roster, they have to skate down a forward in the first game of the season. They can't carry an extra guy in case someone hurts themselves in warmups. They went from having one of the best cap situations in the league to being trapped into a suboptimal roster on opening night in one offseason. 

 

That $1M retention on Gudas suuuuure don't look so good right now. 

 

And they've screwed themselves defensively because they don't want to give up Morin or Hagg for nothing by waiving them.... so it makes sense that Myers gets the cut. In all honestly, I think he played himself out of a spot at least to start.

 

What a mess that simply didn't need to be a mess.