You Should Be Mad

[OccamsRazor]

9 minutes ago, Hockey Junkie said:

Well you do not find it strange all this comes up now?  

 

Not really.

 

I don't even know who she is besides someone who sang for the Flyers.

 

Have they known? 

 

Can't say. Point is we do now and they did something about it.

[mojo1917]

52 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

Bill has a great blog on this very subject today.  It is well worth the read.

 

Though I may not completely agree with what the Flyers did, I certainly can understand their predicament.

 

https://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-Meltzer/On-Kate-Smith-History-and-Context/45/99094

I read that and appreciated his perspective. 

[Buffalo Rick]

12 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Not really.

 

I don't even know who she is besides someone who sang for the Flyers.

 

Have they known? 

 

Can't say. Point is we do now and they did something about it.

She was well known and pretty big in the industry before singing for the Flyers  Never any mention of racism.  She is not here to defend herself and to me that means alot

[B21]

On 4/19/2019 at 5:17 PM, mojo1917 said:

 

this is an interesting concept. who is "we" ? the outrage professionals on twitter and facebook ?

I barely participate on twitter and deleted my facebook account long ago, so anecdotally I don't see too much of the "outrage" ,I see outrage over the outrage. 

 

A good many of my friends and colleagues talk about how "everyone gets offended so easily" Is it that ? or is it people of privilege have to now consider what they say or write prior to letting their thoughts loose upon the world and it makes them uncomfortable?

I personally don't think "wokeness" is a bad thing. Treat everyone with dignity until they show you they are not worthy.

Making a clumsy racial/sexual joke, or longingly remembering the days when people were treated less than; are poor positions to remain intransigent about

 

We = society. Not everyone of course. There are plenty of people (just look at the comments in this thread) who disagree on various levels with what the Flyers did, why they did it, etc. Unfortunately there is a significant portion of the populous who clamor for the drastic actions that the Flyers (and Yankees) took in this situation and many others like it.  I don't think "everyone" gets offended too easily. I do think too many get offended too easily. 

[B21]

22 hours ago, hf101 said:

Incredible. Yet in today's world, many rap songs are sung as ok. 

 

...and sung in sports stadiums/arenas.   Granted, inappropriate language is edited out. Then again, Kate Smith's "God Bless America" got the axe for something else she sang, too. 

[King Knut]

On 4/19/2019 at 11:08 AM, Puck_Pun said:

It's not because it's overstayed its welcome but because they took this long to take offence at the rest of her music library. Details here.

 

 

 

It's because no one friggin' remembered those songs until.  like NO ONE.

 

Was there outrage 20 years ago?  I didn't even hear about the outrage THIS year until it was all over with in NY and about a heartbeat later, here in Philly.  

 

When did this controversy erupt and who was erupting?  I honestly hadn't heard a peep until it was all over.

Edited April 23, 2019 by King Knut

[King Knut]

On 4/19/2019 at 9:58 PM, Special guest speaker said:

Leave Kate Smith and do away with the video duet with Lauren Hart.... Jmho but that's annoying... How about some really talented kid singers or police officers or firemen who can "sing" , military or veterans ..... You keep beating the same dead horse , you're gonna keep getting the same result... No offense to Lauren Hart she's a talented singer don't get me wrong... But a change every now and then would be nice.... I'm just saying.... Again I'm so don't get all bent out of shape on me ....

 

Lauren Hart stays and sings as long and as much as she wants to.  Period.  She can handle it by herself for a while or she can sing Islands in the Stream with Gritty for all I care.  

 

If she and her family and her history with this organization can't make you find a deeper level to your fandom (or your play on the ice for that matter) then I don't even want to know you.

[King Knut]

On 4/19/2019 at 11:12 AM, Puck_Pun said:

The big deal is apparently they're shocked that a musician who was famous in the 40s sang racist songs which, well, was the style at the time.

 

We're living in a time of unbridled outrage that people attempt to quell with outrageous and extreme reactions.

 

Our nation was 50% conceived of and founded by men who owned other human beings as slaves.  

Slavery (though often not entirely racial) was sanctioned and endorsed in the Bible and never really un-endorsed in the new testament.

 

Overt racism was utterly acceptable and utterly legal in my parents generation. 

 

It sounds impossible to comprehend in light of the culture today, but songs like hers were not seen as hateful or hurtful.  I know that doesn't make sense, because there's really no other way to look at it.  

 

Maybe it plagued Kate Smith.  Maybe she spent the 60's, 70's and 80's hoping to god no one would remember those songs.  Maybe she cursed the producer and record guys who roped her into it back then every night.  Who the F knows.  She's dead and gone.

 

I'm not outraged that they removed the statue, I'm concerned, because I hadn't heart any of the outrage that lead up to it.  I hadn't heard a peep and I follow the flyers pretty religiously.  I heard about the Yankees doing it first and before I could even look up what they were talkin about the Flyers had followed suit.  

Who was complaining?  Where was the coverage of that?  I'm so confused by that.

 

I'm not devastated that she's gone however.  Don't get me wrong.  I'm more confused than outraged.

 

As far as tradition goes, her luck for this team ran out in 1976.  I've been ready to move on from breaking her out since then.

 

Lauren Hart makes me cry on those big nights because of what she has lived through and survived and fought through to get there to sing for us all and how I personally relate to that and the fact that she did it all as part of the Flyers family her entire life.  Her whole family means a ton to this organization.  

 

I'm sure there are 50 churches within blocks of broad that could send their choirs to sing God Bless America with her next season.  

I'll be as into that as I could ever have been the Kate Smith thing.   It'll have more impact.  

 

In the mean time, I think it's important that no one demonize Kate Smith.  Demonize the songs she sang as a young woman back when it was popular to sing such songs.  But we don't know a damn thing about how the woman felt about it later in life.  Maybe something will come along to prove her an abject horrible racist, maybe something will come along to put it in perspective and clairfy it with some sympathy.  I don't know...   I honestly just don't care enough or have the energy to care.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Poulin20]

22 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Doesn't matter if she didn't feel this way she shouldn't have sung it.

 

I'm glad you brought this up OR as this is something I've been looking into the last few days.  What do we know about her character and how did she come to sing these songs?  It's a long post but I will share some of my findings and my feelings below if you care to read.  

 

I haven't commented yet on this matter as I have been busy doing research the last few days as this whole episode bothers me as a Flyers fan.  We've all seen and discussed that at least one song was parody and was sung by Paul Robeson but that still doesn't address Kate's character or how she came to sing these songs.  From what I have read and heard on radio broadcasts (debating this issue) performers back in the day had little say in what they sang you were assigned songs by the record label, specifically there was someone called the Artists and Repertoire (or A&R) man who made all these decisions for you.  If you refused you could find yourself out on your rear.  One infamous instance of an A&R folly I found was is Frank Sinatra being forced to sing "Mamma Will bark" by A&R man Mitch Miller at Columbia records.  Frank did it very reluctantly and was thoroughly embarrassed by it (listen to it and you can see why); he never forgave Miller for making him sing it and years later when Miller bumped into Sinatra in Vegas and tried to say hi Frank said, "F*** you, keep walking".  This was Frank Sinatra, a big star we are talking about, yet he didn't have a say, now lets get back to Kate Smith.  The research I did indicated that Kate was a 250 lb woman who was routinely mocked for her weight in Hollywood (Jason Whitlock talks about this in the clip of him I posted earlier in the thread) she was singing whatever they gave her just to keep her job as her employers already had a perfect excuse to get rid of her is she stepped out of line.  Was this cowardly on her part?  Maybe, a bit it would have been awesome if she had refused but its easy to play Monday morning QB too; I am sure some of us would have done the same thing to keep our job.  The point is that she likely didn't have any control of what she was to sing as singers do nowadays.  Granted that doesn't make the song right but it is a mitigating circumstance for me as it helps me to better understand her position in all this.

 

In doing further character research on her I also stumbled upon some stories that Kate would routinely have black performers on her TV show "The Kate Smith Evening Hour" most notably, singer Josephine Baker who sang in the WWII effort and then subsequently lived in France, upon her return to the US she was confronted with the realities of segregation in the US that she hadn't seen in France and hadn't experienced since she was a child.  Baker refused to perform in front of segregated audiences which was problematic for her career.  She was also accused of being a communist by gossip columnist Walter Winchell and for this was a very controversial figure whom nobody wanted to book on TV.  Yet her big break in the US, and television debut was given to her by Kate Smith on Halloween 1951.

 

Kate's family also mentions that she was not racist however due to the risk of bias I am not considering their comments in forming my opinions.

 

My point in all this is there may have been reasons (not yet considered or known) as to why she sang these songs. Again it doesn't make the songs right but it may explain her decisions (right or wrong).   There may also be some evidence out there giving us a small glimpse into her character suggesting that maybe she was not a rabid racist.  What I uncovered doesn't prove anything 100% but it does suggest there may be more than meets the eye to this story which is why I have a hard time with what the Flyers did.

 

The part that upsets me the most though is the rapidity of how it all happened and how the Flyers lied and said they were looking into it and they continue to lie to me as a season ticket holder saying that they are still reviewing this "serious and sensitive matter".  There was and will be no research on their part. The decision has been made already and will not be reversed.  The worst part is the decision was not at all made out of their racial sensitivity.  This decision was made strictly for image maintenance and corporate expediency, nothing less and nothing more.

 

Finally what does the Kate Smith phenomenon mean to me as a Flyers fan?  I don't believe in luck or good luck charms at all but for some reason their record when the song was played was incredible.  For me it was just a cool Flyers thing (an analogy would be as Americana is to the USA).   I know a lot of you had grown to detest the tradition as it was old and played out in your minds but for me though it is a part of the Flyers fabric, it is a very unique part of the Flyers story.  It was one of many factors which helped to create the feeling of family that I sensed with this team when I became a fan in 1984 and have felt to this day (until now).  I'm a fan of the other teams in town too but the Flyers had this unique way of making me like them more due to their traditions and the way they were run.  That's been torn to pieces for me now by how they handled this as for the first time ever for me I don't feel like we are family any more.  There was no debate, not among season ticket holders, not among rank and file fans, it was just over and done with.

 

I could stomach this a lot more if we all had some discussions about our viewpoints.  If for instance legions of African American fans (whom I see quite a few of at the games nowadays) came forward and said hey despite all you say, about Kate this really really hurts me more than you could ever know and understand.  I could live with that.  I could truly accept that and move on from there but unless we go through the exercise of having these conversations and looking at the whole picture then I just put it down to corporate cowardice,  and expediency on the part of the Comcast/NBC.  Maybe that's why it doesn't feel like family anymore because the Flyers have ceased to be a family and are now just a corporate entity like the rest.

Edited April 23, 2019 by Poulin20

[Podein25]

1 hour ago, Poulin20 said:

...if we all had some discussions about our viewpoints. 

 

Amen. It's a bit late for that sentiment apparently. I blame both sides. And Lindros.

[King Knut]

22 hours ago, Poulin20 said:

 

I'm glad you brought this up OR as this is something I've been looking into the last few days.  What do we know about her character and how did she come to sing these songs?  It's a long post but I will share some of my findings and my feelings below if you care to read.  

 

I haven't commented yet on this matter as I have been busy doing research the last few days as this whole episode bothers me as a Flyers fan.  We've all seen and discussed that at least one song was parody and was sung by Paul Robeson but that still doesn't address Kate's character or how she came to sing these songs.  From what I have read and heard on radio broadcasts (debating this issue) performers back in the day had little say in what they sang you were assigned songs by the record label, specifically there was someone called the Artists and Repertoire (or A&R) man who made all these decisions for you.  If you refused you could find yourself out on your rear.  One infamous instance of an A&R folly I found was is Frank Sinatra being forced to sing "Mamma Will bark" by A&R man Mitch Miller at Columbia records.  Frank did it very reluctantly and was thoroughly embarrassed by it (listen to it and you can see why); he never forgave Miller for making him sing it and years later when Miller bumped into Sinatra in Vegas and tried to say hi Frank said, "F*** you, keep walking".  This was Frank Sinatra, a big star we are talking about, yet he didn't have a say, now lets get back to Kate Smith.  The research I did indicated that Kate was a 250 lb woman who was routinely mocked for her weight in Hollywood (Jason Whitlock talks about this in the clip of him I posted earlier in the thread) she was singing whatever they gave her just to keep her job as her employers already had a perfect excuse to get rid of her is she stepped out of line.  Was this cowardly on her part?  Maybe, a bit it would have been awesome if she had refused but its easy to play Monday morning QB too; I am sure some of us would have done the same thing to keep our job.  The point is that she likely didn't have any control of what she was to sing as singers do nowadays.  Granted that doesn't make the song right but it is a mitigating circumstance for me as it helps me to better understand her position in all this.

 

In doing further character research on her I also stumbled upon some stories that Kate would routinely have black performers on her TV show "The Kate Smith Evening Hour" most notably, singer Josephine Baker who sang in the WWII effort and then subsequently lived in France, upon her return to the US she was confronted with the realities of segregation in the US that she hadn't seen in France and hadn't experienced since she was a child.  Baker refused to perform in front of segregated audiences which was problematic for her career.  She was also accused of being a communist by gossip columnist Walter Winchell and for this was a very controversial figure whom nobody wanted to book on TV.  Yet her big break in the US, and television debut was given to her by Kate Smith on Halloween 1951.

 

Kate's family also mentions that she was not racist however due to the risk of bias I am not considering their comments in forming my opinions.

 

My point in all this is there may have been reasons (not yet considered or known) as to why she sang these songs. Again it doesn't make the songs right but it may explain her decisions (right or wrong).   There may also be some evidence out there giving us a small glimpse into her character suggesting that maybe she was not a rabid racist.  What I uncovered doesn't prove anything 100% but it does suggest there may be more than meets the eye to this story which is why I have a hard time with what the Flyers did.

 

The part that upsets me the most though is the rapidity of how it all happened and how the Flyers lied and said they were looking into it and they continue to lie to me as a season ticket holder saying that they are still reviewing this "serious and sensitive matter".  There was and will be no research on their part. The decision has been made already and will not be reversed.  The worst part is the decision was not at all made out of their racial sensitivity.  This decision was made strictly for image maintenance and corporate expediency, nothing less and nothing more.

 

Finally what does the Kate Smith phenomenon mean to me as a Flyers fan?  I don't believe in luck or good luck charms at all but for some reason their record when the song was played was incredible.  For me it was just a cool Flyers thing (an analogy would be as Americana is to the USA).   I know a lot of you had grown to detest the tradition as it was old and played out in your minds but for me though it is a part of the Flyers fabric, it is a very unique part of the Flyers story.  It was one of many factors which helped to create the feeling of family that I sensed with this team when I became a fan in 1984 and have felt to this day (until now).  I'm a fan of the other teams in town too but the Flyers had this unique way of making me like them more due to their traditions and the way they were run.  That's been torn to pieces for me now by how they handled this as for the first time ever for me I don't feel like we are family any more.  There was no debate, not among season ticket holders, not among rank and file fans, it was just over and done with.

 

I could stomach this a lot more if we all had some discussions about our viewpoints.  If for instance legions of African American fans (whom I see quite a few of at the games nowadays) came forward and said hey despite all you say, about Kate this really really hurts me more than you could ever know and understand.  I could live with that.  I could truly accept that and move on from there but unless we go through the exercise of having these conversations and looking at the whole picture then I just put it down to corporate cowardice,  and expediency on the part of the Comcast/NBC.  Maybe that's why it doesn't feel like family anymore because the Flyers have ceased to be a family and are now just a corporate entity like the rest.

 

I'm in total agreement on the rapidity factor.  

 

I mean, at the end of the day if it was well known that this woman was an overt racist or even if she wasn't... if people know she sang these songs it would hurt their feelings and make them feel terrible and at the very least unwelcome. That's not okay.  So I get it.  I just feel like this is a rush to judgement and if the removal of the statue was put in a context of being "temporary while we sort stuff out and see what we can determine because we don't want fans to feel unwelcome at our home"  then I'd be more okay with this.  

 

It's so Knee Jerk that there's never an opportunity to have the conversation.  And the conversation is what's important.  The conversation is how we get better at being human beings.  

 

Otherwise the Washington Monument and Jefferson Memorial are going to have to get torn down because they were pretty friggin' awful people when it came to race.

 

She's not here to defend herself... so we kinda have to go on research like yours.  A plaque to go next to the statue could have gone a long way to explain a few things and acknowledge some short comings or mistakes but there's no room for nuance or understanding in today's climate.  It's rush to judgement and abject hatred. 

 

There's a certain degree of that old Mother Night concept of "In the end you are what you pretend to be" at play here, but the woman wasn't a civil war general and to many Flyers fans it's akin to being told your grandmother's a racist pig because she had a lan jockey in the 40's. 

 

I'm going to have to stop now because it's reminding me of something else that still has much more  furious than this. 

 

 

 

 

[mojo1917]

21 hours ago, Podein25 said:

I blame both sides. And Lindros.

Well of course, it is his fault. 

[Podein25]

2 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Well of course, it is his fault. 

 

I don't see how it can't be. I tried to look past him for other potential causes, but nope, it's all him.

[brelic]

16 minutes ago, King Knut said:

It's so Knee Jerk that there's never an opportunity to have the conversation.  And the conversation is what's important.  The conversation is how we get better at being human beings.  

 

This might be a part of the issue. 

 

My perception, as an non-American, is that you (the royal you) aren't able to have those conversations on a public scale without it devolving into tribalism and divisiveness. Something appears seriously broken in the American discourse. The vitriol and hatred that are present on social media on the issue of the day are downright disturbing. I just can't believe people talk to other people that way. 

 

Perhaps Comcast just thought rather than try and have a conversation that will almost certainly go sideways, especially as it spills onto social media (which it has anyway), they would just do what they feel is the right thing to do. I'm not passing judgment either way, but that may have been in the back of their minds on some level.

 

 

[Poulin20]

5 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

This might be a part of the issue. 

 

My perception, as an non-American, is that you (the royal you) aren't able to have those conversations on a public scale without it devolving into tribalism and divisiveness. Something appears seriously broken in the American discourse. The vitriol and hatred that are present on social media on the issue of the day are downright disturbing. I just can't believe people talk to other people that way. 

 

Perhaps Comcast just thought rather than try and have a conversation that will almost certainly go sideways, especially as it spills onto social media (which it has anyway), they would just do what they feel is the right thing to do. I'm not passing judgment either way, but that may have been in the back of their minds on some level.

 

 

 

I'm not sure its an America thing as much as a social media thing.  Social media is an absolute sewer which is why I avoid it like the plague.  Think of it, on social media you can be the rude, nasty and a tough keyboard warrior and nobody will hold you accountable.  Whereas in person when someone is right in front of you, you may think twice about what you say and more thoughtful in your discourse.

 

Comcast isn't interested in doing the right thing as far as the issue is concerned.  They are only interested in doing what they think is right thing for their own interests.  That would be the path of least resistance, make the "problem" disappear and then wait it out until those who are upset forget about it or lose their desire to keep fighting and then move on with business as usual if nothing ever happened.  That is likely what will happen too unless the fans make a persistent issue of it, and they way people are today, I doubt they will (I contacted the Flyers fan club and asked if they were planning on organizing anything to protest or at least stimulate discussion and I get no response).  Its sad too because as KK said, the conversation is what's important and is what will help us grow and learn and change and understand each other better.  But Comcast isn't interested in that at all, they could care less.  They just want everyone to shut up about it and for the problem to go away.   

[King Knut]

9 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

This might be a part of the issue. 

 

My perception, as an non-American, is that you (the royal you) aren't able to have those conversations on a public scale without it devolving into tribalism and divisiveness. Something appears seriously broken in the American discourse. The vitriol and hatred that are present on social media on the issue of the day are downright disturbing. I just can't believe people talk to other people that way. 

 

Perhaps Comcast just thought rather than try and have a conversation that will almost certainly go sideways, especially as it spills onto social media (which it has anyway), they would just do what they feel is the right thing to do. I'm not passing judgment either way, but that may have been in the back of their minds on some level.

 

 

Really I'm fine with the decision.  I just think doing it this way without leaving room for the conversation then just leads to further opportunities for the sort of tribalism you're talking about.

 

And you're not incorrect about the tribalism here.  Part of it has to do with social media and the fact that right now everyone acts like a grade school child there where if you can make someone else feel bad about themselves, that makes you (again the royal you) feel better about yourself.

 

Which is a terrible fallacy because most Americans are effing miserable.  But that just feeds the cycle and fills them with the urge to put down the "others" more.  

 

It's horrible and it's going to destroy us.  It's already being specifically exploited to ill gains.

 

But maybe, just maybe the Flyers will make the playoffs next year and look good getting there and I'll be able to put it out of my head for a while.  It's going to be a long summer.  

[King Knut]

3 minutes ago, Poulin20 said:

 

I'm not sure its an America thing as much as a social media thing.  Social media is an absolute sewer which is why I avoid it like the plague.  Think of it, on social media you can be the rude, nasty and a tough keyboard warrior and nobody will hold you accountable.  Whereas in person when someone is right in front of you, you may think twice about what you say and more thoughtful in your discourse.

 

Comcast isn't interested in doing the right thing as far as the issue is concerned.  They are only interested in doing what they think is right thing for their own interests.  That would be the path of least resistance, make the "problem" disappear and then wait it out until those who are upset forget about it or lose their desire to keep fighting and then move on with business as usual if nothing ever happened.  That is likely what will happen too unless the fans make a persistent issue of it, and they way people are today, I doubt they will (I contacted the Flyers fan club and asked if they were planning on organizing anything to protest or at least stimulate discussion and I get no response).  Its sad too because as KK said, the conversation is what's important and is what will help us grow and learn and change and understand each other better.  But Comcast isn't interested in that at all, they could care less.  They just want everyone to shut up about it and for the problem to go away.   

 

Oh I think it's very much an American thing right now.  

 

In some ways I applaud Comcast taking swift action, I just wish it could be a little less definitive.  Take her down temporarily while we have that discussion.  Maybe it goes away and she never comes back.  Maybe AA groups step up and say that they've seen she never wanted to sing those songs (complete supposition) and took measures to be a better more accepting person as her career progressed.  I don't know.  Just leave room for us to grow around the issue and fill in the cracks rather than just tearing a hole between folks.

 

I will say if the football team from Washington had been this decisive and rapid, they'd be in better standing right now.  Maybe they don't care about the fans they've lost and the players who don't want to go play for them, but they have lost those fans and those players really don't want to go there.  

[Podein25]

20 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Oh I think it's very much an American thing right now.  

 

It's a global phenomenon, but the culture wars are particularly intense right now in Amerika at this juncture, amplified by Trumpism and its associated pathologies.

[King Knut]

6 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

It's a global phenomenon, but the culture wars are particularly intense right now in Amerika at this juncture, amplified by Trumpism and its associated pathologies.

 

The tribalism really started getting pushed in the 90's.  The birth of social media in the early 2000's fed into it to help create a truly dangerous beast.  It's been weaponized against us and continues to be so utilized to our great peril. Other places are dealing with something similar, but there are few nations on earth as diverse and vast in population as the U.S. and even fewer with the deep seeded racial discord inherent here.    

 

So yeah, it's everywhere... but our individual "tribes" are all much larger than the entire populations of places like Germany and The UK where similar things are afoot and are similarly being used to damage those nations.  

 

We're number one!  

Edited April 24, 2019 by King Knut

[mojo1917]

@Poulin20

I can appreciate a great deal of what you have to say  on this topic though I do disagree in some instances.  Having Comcast ask "people "if its okay for them to do something they feel is in the best interest of their business is unrealistic.  

 

The tradition for performing God Bless America at a Flyers game can remain intact.

In the 70's Kate Smith sang it and it was good luck charm, in the 80's they played the tape and it became less so. Lately they've been doing a tape duet with Lauren Hart and bless her soul she hits it more than she misses and what Lauren is doing is difficult in an big arena.

 

Have Lauren sing it, have Alicia Moore (pink) sing it IDGAH who sings it, just do it live- it's awesome.

Kate Smith's version can still be the originator of the tradition.

She did things in her time that are not viewed as acceptable today, so is it terrible to move on from her ?

 

The conversation regarding how we have treated men and women who don't look like us in this country is already fraught with emotion. We white people must learn to not be so defensive when a brown person says "this thing in history was terrible for people who look like me- how about we not glorify it anymore ?". 

 

Times were different, we all seem to understand this; and the people of any era were just like us, mostly good and mostly not full of hate.

The society as a whole was (and still is) not equitable though. 

The more the people responsible for shaping the society stamp their feet and refuse to acknowledge this fact, the less likely any progress can be made. 

 

 

 

[aziz]

On 4/22/2019 at 11:31 AM, mojo1917 said:

This statement alone is part and parcel of the problem, by "not seeing color" one is not seeing the other person as a whole person.

By not allowing the other person's race inform who they are and how they relate to the world is denying that person their full self.  

"Not seeing color" is a nice sentiment, in practice it is dismissive, and most likely, untrue.

 

and i believe the above statement is part and parcel of the problem.  what does where your ancestors lived hundreds or thousands of years ago have to do at all with the substance of anyone?  i get that it impacts what a person's life is like right now, but isn't that because we continue to focus on it as Very Important?  wouldn't it be better if everyone was all, "meh, i don't really care where your people came from long ago, i'm way more interested in you yourself and how you present yourself to the world"?

 

if you see a person with red hair and a ton of freckles, do you say to yourself, "ah, their distant ancestors were likely from Ireland or Scotland, or possibly Wales, and that should influence how i perceive and interact with them"?

 

humans are tribal.  we automatically divide the world into "our people" and "not our people".  always have, always will.  xenophobia was a required survival trait for many millions of years and is a deep part of what we are.  what all animals are, really.

 

the definition of "xeno", though, is flexible.  we are not hard coded to recognize any particular category of difference, only to separate based on whatever categories we currently deem important.  we routinely abandon categories of difference as the process and progress of civilization moves forward.  what was once seen as a vital difference between two groups of people becomes irrelevant trivia, possibly important for the individual and their personal identity, but meaningless in larger social context.  Does it matter *at all* to you that a given person is of irish or scandinavian descent?  or italian?  or baptist?  these used to be huge deals, and might be still for some individuals, but i don't even process "irish" when I interact with a red head with a last name of o'conner or something.  it just doesn't matter to me in any way, shape, or form; they get a blank slate from me to fill in with their own character and value not derived from incidental genetics or stereotypes.

 

"not seeing color" IS dismissive, and that is a good thing.  so long as race is recognized as a primary attribute of people, it will be used as a primary means of separating people into "our people" and "not our people".  once whether a person is african american, chinese, indian, hispanic, white, or whatever ceases to be seen as an important defining characteristic, it will cease to divide and we can begin to move past these issues.  so long as it is held as vital and paramount, we will continue to have problems.  this holds true for all dimensions along which we can draw lines around and between people.  gender, age, race, religion, sexuality, hair color, eye color, height, handedness, whatever.  so long as things an individual has no control over are used to categorize them, they will be used to separate.  the only way forward is to stop caring about those things.  not "understand and respect" them, but "stop caring". 

 

yes, this guy is a red head, and this girl is black, and this person is a catholic, and we shouldn't care about any of it; they are individuals, and we shouldn't let those other things inform our opinions or perception of them.

 

/rant

 

hi, everyone!  bad day of sit-and-listen meetings, thought i'd type some.  hope all is well.

 

[mojo1917]

@aziz

hey man, good to see you posting.

I loved this post /\ especially. 

I would love it if our ancestry didn't matter. I'm totally ready for "meh, doesn't matter"...but it does. 

Today, being brown in this country presents a unique set of extra hurdles to navigate. 

Acknowledging people were ****** to one another in the past and trying to not be ****** to one another going forward is a great place to start down the road to "meh it doesn't matter". 

 

 

 

 

[brelic]

1 hour ago, aziz said:

"not seeing color" IS dismissive, and that is a good thing.  so long as race is recognized as a primary attribute of people, it will be used as a primary means of separating people into "our people" and "not our people".  once whether a person is african american, chinese, indian, hispanic, white, or whatever ceases to be seen as an important defining characteristic, it will cease to divide and we can begin to move past these issues.  so long as it is held as vital and paramount, we will continue to have problems.  this holds true for all dimensions along which we can draw lines around and between people.  gender, age, race, religion, sexuality, hair color, eye color, height, handedness, whatever.  so long as things an individual has no control over are used to categorize them, they will be used to separate.  the only way forward is to stop caring about those things.  not "understand and respect" them, but "stop caring". 

 

yes, this guy is a red head, and this girl is black, and this person is a catholic, and we shouldn't care about any of it; they are individuals, and we shouldn't let those other things inform our opinions or perception of them.

 

Lots of food for thought, and great post overall. Nice to see you again

 

All I would add is my interpretation of @mojo1917's initial post - and my interpretation could be totally off base from what he meant, but what I took from it is that there is a life-affirming way to embrace the entirety of a person - race, religion, language, ethnicity, physical traits, their own personal history, their collective history, etc.

 

In other words, these are all of the characteristics and traits and features and things I can gather from you on an observational basis (whether superficial or from a personal relationship), and all of those things make you who you are. Period. 

 

This is in opposition to the life-denying way society handles it now - by judging, castigating, and dismissing on an aggregate scale that filters down to the individual.

 

True, we are animals (which reminds me of another debate I'd love to have), and we are tribal.

 

We are also evolving. 

 

So in my world view, I agree with your general point that the way forward is by making these "differences" go away by "not seeing" them. However, I see that as the incremental step that humanity can take right now based on where "we" are in our development as a species. I'd say we're in our mid-teens or very early adulthood. 

 

Give it a few thousand years, and "society" may be all grown up, which I think looks more like what @mojo1917 is saying.

 

Of course, we may also be extinct because robots had no use for such "flawed" animals.

 

 

 

[mojo1917]

@brelic

you sir, are making sandwiches with the bread, meat and cheese I laid out.

very eloquently I might add - do you "do" resume's ? 

thanks!

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

I hate everyone.....equally...

 

..except @Podein25

 

...I hate him the most.

 

Because he is always blaming the greatest player to lace them up....

 

jon sim jon sim jon sim jon sim jon sim

 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2019 by OccamsRazor
jon sim jon sim jon sim jon sim jon sim