Game 5: Flyers at Oilers; 10/16/19 @ 9:30 ET

[brelic]

4 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

Greetings:

 

This is a great post. I think the last paragraph is critical.  You could argue the Oilers have had their "Process."  Persistent losing has led to drafting of "generational" talent.  We may have snagged a few good people over the past few years.  But they aren't game changers, with the possible exception of Hart or TBD.  It's sad but true. Shoot...our "miracle draft ball" may have chronic health issues. 

 

Definitely. I mean, the Oilers had more than their fair share of the "process" that was likely delayed by mismanagement, but on that Braun miscue last night, I don't think anyone not named McDavid scores there. He's just on another level. 

 

The bad news is, yeah, we don't have generational talent, and aren't likely to get some anytime soon. Hopefully Patrick comes back healthy and has a great career, but he is hardly a generational talent. 

 

The good news is, St Louis won the Stanley Cup. Without generational talent. And TB's elite talent was ousted by a team that played like a team, and wanted it more. Yes, you need top talent, and we have that.

 

Maybe we need more, maybe we need "different" talent, I don't know.

 

 

[brelic]

7 minutes ago, JR Ewing said:

 

This is really it: development doesn't necessarily occur in a straight line. The problem is when people assume that a trajectory will continue to just go up and up and up, and Philly's poor goaltending depth forced him into this position before (and I could be alone in this) think he was ready for it. The struggles are going to happen with a lot more eyeballs and pressure on him than there would have been in the American League.

 

Nothing to do now but ride out the ups and downs.

 

And we are seeing this right now. Provorov has had a very up and down start to his career. Ghost is another. Sanheim, TK, Patrick, and almost certainly Hart will too.

 

I know no one wants to hear this... but I'd say we're 2-3 years away

 

Joking!

 

But not really.

 

[RonJeremy]

1 hour ago, brelic said:

 

Definitely. I mean, the Oilers had more than their fair share of the "process" that was likely delayed by mismanagement, but on that Braun miscue last night, I don't think anyone not named McDavid scores there. He's just on another level. 

 

The bad news is, yeah, we don't have generational talent, and aren't likely to get some anytime soon. Hopefully Patrick comes back healthy and has a great career, but he is hardly a generational talent. 

 

The good news is, St Louis won the Stanley Cup. Without generational talent. And TB's elite talent was ousted by a team that played like a team, and wanted it more. Yes, you need top talent, and we have that.

 

Maybe we need more, maybe we need "different" talent, I don't know.

 

 

Throughout the Flyers entire  history , other than Lindros,  we never had generational talent, we had good players,  yet we were always one of the top teams and a very successful franchise. What set us apart was leadership and determination . We always came to play and never quit. Clarke, Poulin, Sutter, Tocchet, Primeau, .etc. I really believe that this team lacks leadership, and has not had a true leader since Pronger.  Lindros was never a leader and I dont think Giroux and Voracek are good leaders either.  I just dont think they have the alpha personalities to lead this team. We don't have the fire of past Flyer teams.

[Lunatic]

42 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

Throughout the Flyers entire  history , other than Lindros,  we never had generational talent, we had good players,  yet we were always one of the top teams and a very successful franchise. What set us apart was leadership and determination . We always came to play and never quit. Clarke, Poulin, Sutter, Tocchet, Primeau, .etc. I really believe that this team lacks leadership, and has not had a true leader since Pronger.  Lindros was never a leader and I dont think Giroux and Voracek are good leaders either.  I just dont think they have the alpha personalities to lead this team. We don't have the fire of past Flyer teams.

Disagree regarding generational talent: Robert Earle Clarke was just that!

[King Knut]

2 hours ago, brelic said:

 

Definitely. I mean, the Oilers had more than their fair share of the "process" that was likely delayed by mismanagement, but on that Braun miscue last night, I don't think anyone not named McDavid scores there. He's just on another level. 

 

 

Here's my thing on that though... Braun isn't aware that a generational talent is on the ice?  He's not aware that a guy faster than a a hopped up Mike Gartner is coming at him?  He's not anticipating that, protecting the puck and slapping it into the corner?

 

Braun messed up.  Hart didn't make a savable save.  

 

McDavid is incredible.  They made him look even more so than he actually is.  

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, RonJeremy said:

Throughout the Flyers entire  history , other than Lindros,  we never had generational talent, we had good players,  yet we were always one of the top teams and a very successful franchise. What set us apart was leadership and determination . We always came to play and never quit. Clarke, Poulin, Sutter, Tocchet, Primeau, .etc. I really believe that this team lacks leadership, and has not had a true leader since Pronger.  Lindros was never a leader and I dont think Giroux and Voracek are good leaders either.  I just dont think they have the alpha personalities to lead this team. We don't have the fire of past Flyer teams.

 

Bob Clarke and Eric LIndros are two more generational talents than a lot of teams get.  

[King Knut]

2 hours ago, Howie58 said:

Greetings:

 

This is a great post. I think the last paragraph is critical.  You could argue the Oilers have had their "Process."  Persistent losing has led to drafting of "generational" talent.  We may have snagged a few good people over the past few years.  But they aren't game changers, with the possible exception of Hart or TBD.  It's sad but true. Shoot...our "miracle draft ball" may have chronic health issues. 

 

Yeah... I just don't necessarily agree with that last paragraph.  

 

Last night was actually really promising in a lot of ways.  I think sooner or later, Fletcher's going to have to pull the trigger on Farabee and let Stewart and Pitlick slide.  

 

THey liked what they saw out of Bunnyman and Twarynski, but it's time to face the facts and put the guys with actual potential and not just sand paper and "try" the time to thrive.  

 

If Patrick isn't ready, then put in the 3C that actually has the skill potential to be 3C.

Farabee is ready to be a 2W now. 

 

if Pitlick and Laughton are your 4th with Raffl (not playing C) and your 3rd has more skill and skating on it, then low and behold, they're a good deep team.

 

Right now, for whatever reason, because Patty's got an issue, Fletcher is afraid to let this team's depth be deep.  I'm not sure why.  

 

Anyway, it's game 5.  They're at .500 under difficult circumstances with a brand new system.  They lost a game they were clearly just not in from the puck drop... be it jet lag or the flu or whatever, it was clear, they weren't all there.  any of them.

 

Then they lost a game that they pretty much dominated.  The PP's better and the PK is better (though not great after last night).

 

All in all the direction is good.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JR Ewing]

34 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Here's my thing on that though... Braun isn't aware that a generational talent is on the ice?  He's not aware that a guy faster than a a hopped up Mike Gartner is coming at him?  He's not anticipating that, protecting the puck and slapping it into the corner?

 

Braun messed up.  Hart didn't make a savable save.  

 

McDavid is incredible.  They made him look even more so than he actually is.  

 

I don't know... That's a really tough play for any defenseman, and that I've seen McDavid victimize a number of them with. I watched the Comcast coverage (I always like to watch the other team's broadcast) and as soon as the puck was in the air and McDavid spotted it, Ray Ferraro said "Uh oh".

 

They have a split-second to make decisions, and even less than that with a guy like McDavid, who may well be the fastest player in the league's history. I've watched McDavid make guys like Drew Doughty look absolutely silly on a regular basis. Two seasons ago, the Lightning rolled into town and McDavid had a 5-point night hard-matched against Victor Hedman.

 

I can cut some slack to Braun here.

 

 

[RonJeremy]

35 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Bob Clarke and Eric LIndros are two more generational talents than a lot of teams get.  

Clarke might be a generational talent but, he wasn't big, wasn't stong, wasnt a great skater and had an average shot. His hard work and dedication put him to that level. We have players now with higher skill levels but they do not produce what Clarke did. The Flyers did more with less top end talent than other teams over the years.

[brelic]

3 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

Throughout the Flyers entire  history , other than Lindros,  we never had generational talent, we had good players,  yet we were always one of the top teams and a very successful franchise. What set us apart was leadership and determination . We always came to play and never quit. Clarke, Poulin, Sutter, Tocchet, Primeau, .etc. I really believe that this team lacks leadership, and has not had a true leader since Pronger.  Lindros was never a leader and I dont think Giroux and Voracek are good leaders either.  I just dont think they have the alpha personalities to lead this team. We don't have the fire of past Flyer teams.

 

Yeah, maybe. It's definitely possible that the team on the ice could be better with different leadership. The challenge in these cases, though, is that how do you realistically address that? That is a difficult and very disruptive process i.e. it would probably have a strong effect on the team for a while, whether good or bad. Hard to say. So not only is it a pretty hard thing for Fletch to realistically "solve", but it's also very risky on whether or not it will have the intended effect.

 

I'm not saying don't do it. I'm just saying it's not easy, and I would guess, almost a non-starter for Fletch (to move Giroux). He would need a LOT of evidence that there is an actual problem.

 

Edited October 18, 2019 by brelic

[brelic]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

Yeah... I just don't necessarily agree with that last paragraph.  

 

Last night was actually really promising in a lot of ways.  I think sooner or later, Fletcher's going to have to pull the trigger on Farabee and let Stewart and Pitlick slide.  

 

THey liked what they saw out of Bunnyman and Twarynski, but it's time to face the facts and put the guys with actual potential and not just sand paper and "try" the time to thrive.  

 

If Patrick isn't ready, then put in the 3C that actually has the skill potential to be 3C.

Farabee is ready to be a 2W now. 

 

if Pitlick and Laughton are your 4th with Raffl (not playing C) and your 3rd has more skill and skating on it, then low and behold, they're a good deep team.

 

Right now, for whatever reason, because Patty's got an issue, Fletcher is afraid to let this team's depth be deep.  I'm not sure why.  

 

Anyway, it's game 5.  They're at .500 under difficult circumstances with a brand new system.  They lost a game they were clearly just not in from the puck drop... be it jet lag or the flu or whatever, it was clear, they weren't all there.  any of them.

 

Then they lost a game that they pretty much dominated.  The PP's better and the PK is better (though not great after last night).

 

All in all the direction is good.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think the Flyers definitely have the existing pieces in the system to be a deep team, but a big chunk of it is derailed because of Patrick's injury. It really is a big set back that has no current solution. 

 

Man, I hope he comes back soon. The lack of news is... encouraging? Or at least the fact that he's not LTIR is encouraging.

 

[elmatus]

42 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

I think the Flyers definitely have the existing pieces in the system to be a deep team, but a big chunk of it is derailed because of Patrick's injury. It really is a big set back that has no current solution. 

 

Man, I hope he comes back soon. The lack of news is... encouraging? Or at least the fact that he's not LTIR is encouraging.

 

 

Is it? I mean, don't get me wrong, I *want* it to be a big set back. I want to be able to say this team is significantly better with Patrick in the line up. I'm just not sure we can really say that with what Patrick has shown in his admittedly short career to date. I certainly hope we get to a point where we can say that, but I'm pretty hesitant to say that right now.

 

Sure, he's an NHL player. But he has hardly been a major force on the ice. At this point, he would definitely be a 3C, which is probably where he should be anyway based on how he's played in his time here so far. Does he have another gear? I hope so. I just don't think we know yet what we've got in him. What we've seen is not exactly very inspiring. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I do want him back in the line up. He's young, and I have to think he has more to show than what we've gotten so far. I think he's better and certainly has more upside than Laughton for instance, and in that way he definitely would make the team better. How much better? That's harder for me to say. I certainly don't consider him a gamechanger of any real kind. He's an upgrade from Laughton, but I don't think it's very wise to assume this team could have won any of these last three games if Patrick was in the line up. He's just not that impactful (yet?)

Edited October 18, 2019 by elmatus

[brelic]

51 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

Is it? I mean, don't get me wrong, I *want* it to be a big set back. I want to be able to say this team is significantly better with Patrick in the line up. I'm just not sure we can really say that with what Patrick has shown in his admittedly short career to date. I certainly hope we get to a point where we can say that, but I'm pretty hesitant to say that right now.

 

Sure, he's an NHL player. But he has hardly been a major force on the ice. At this point, he would definitely be a 3C, which is probably where he should be anyway based on how he's played in his time here so far. Does he have another gear? I hope so. I just don't think we know yet what we've got in him. What we've seen is not exactly very inspiring. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I do want him back in the line up. He's young, and I have to think he has more to show than what we've gotten so far. I think he's better and certainly has more upside than Laughton for instance, and in that way he definitely would make the team better. How much better? That's harder for me to say. I certainly don't consider him a gamechanger of any real kind. He's an upgrade from Laughton, but I don't think it's very wise to assume this team could have won any of these last three games if Patrick was in the line up. He's just not that impactful (yet?)

Yeah, that’s totally fair. If last year’s Patrick shows up, it’s probably a marginal upgrade. 
 

But every once in a while you see flashes of why Patrick was drafted so highly. He’s gonna figure it out. 
 

Laughton has never shown any of those flashes, and that’s because it’s just not there. 

[RonJeremy]

@brelic  we may not need to change leadership,  your right thats hard to do. Additional leadership is probably the answer. Giroux and Voracek are ok as secondary leaders, but we definitely need a primary leader.

[Podein25]

 

BRING BACK BRAD MARSH!

[OccamsRazor]

I think everyone needs to step back from the ledge right now. With all the flying the team has done it had to have an effect on them.

 

They went 2-2-1 and it was pretty much what i expected especially still learning on the job of what the coach wants to do.

 

Even Hart looked human. I think we will better know what we have in a couple weeks. I hope they can get some chemistry developed to fall back on.

 

Sleeping in their beds for a weeks should help too. I am encouraged a little that Elliott looked pretty decent in his backup role.

 

Flyers are going to need good goaltending if they want to make the playoffs!

[King Knut]

14 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

Clarke might be a generational talent but, he wasn't big, wasn't stong, wasnt a great skater and had an average shot. His hard work and dedication put him to that level. We have players now with higher skill levels but they do not produce what Clarke did. The Flyers did more with less top end talent than other teams over the years.

 

I hear you, but don’t underestimate how good Barber, Leach and MacLeish were.  Also that team had 2 generational talents. Don’t forget Bernie while not home grown in the org, is nonetheless another generational talent.  

[mojo1917]

15 hours ago, King Knut said:

Here's my thing on that though... Braun isn't aware that a generational talent is on the ice?  He's not aware that a guy faster than a a hopped up Mike Gartner is coming at him?

Sometimes it doesn't matter even if you know it's coming. McDavid is the fastest guy in the league, Braun wasn't lolly-gagging, he got beat by a better faster player, it happens. 

Maybe Crosby can make that play, maybe Fedorov in his prime or Bure...sometimes you tip your cap and sit the **** down. - that sucks but it happens.

[mojo1917]

I think Charlie O'Connor said it best, the team has played in such a way that a person can see what they want to see.

They are a disorganized mess- the Calgary game They are on the cusp of greatness- the Devils game.

I thought they played well vs Edmonton, I watched up to 4-1 and the Nugent-Hopkins goal.  I think they gave up 9 shots to that point ?

They had everything going but the goal tending and the finish. 

I thought the effort was good especially after shitting the bed in Calgary the night prior.

That speaks to leadership btw, so those making that argument can stow it.

Hart had a bad night, The best player in the league balled out. It happens.

I'm ready for the effort to yield some results though, guys need to start putting shots in the frame and not on it. 

 

 

[mojo1917]

On 10/16/2019 at 12:04 PM, radoran said:

With the absolute least to show for it in terms of team success? Certainly for any captain that lasted more than a season?

 

His tenure as captain has been flat out the most disappointing of any in the team's history in terms of team success.

 

I know he's got more points than (almost) anyone over whatever stretch of time makes that true. And he's not "the problem". And and and and and and...

 

Seven years without a playoff round win. Seven years. That has literally never happened to this organization. Never. Not once. Ever.

 

And the best finish they've had is 3rd in the division: 4th, 3rd ("lost to the Cup champions!"), 6th, 5th, 6th, 3rd, 6th.

 

These are undeniable facts.

I would also like to point to the rosters that he led during that time and offer that there are 22 other reasons each year contributing to this lack of success.

Ilya Bryzgalov, Bruno Gervais, Matt Read, Mike Knuble, Andres Lilja, Brandon Manning, Adam Hall, Eric Gustafsson, Kris Newberry, Chris VandeVelde, Jay Rosehill, Washed up Vinnie Lecavalier, Zac Rinaldo and I could go on; all played significant minutes for the Flyers during the last 7 years. These are the stiffs I came up with thinking about it for 45 seconds, looking on the internet, it's worse, definitely worse.

 

So yes, Giroux hasn't had success leading the team.  The teams he's led have objectively sucked. "definitely a playoff team" is one of your favorite refrains. What's he supposed to say, "well alot of these guys are are a twisted knee away from working at Tim Horton's full time, but you know, they try"? 

There are many places to point the finger for the team's recent futility, making the team's best player (and one of the top 10 guys in the whole league over his career) the place to start seems misguided, at best. 

 

Edited October 18, 2019 by mojo1917

[radoran]

28 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

"definitely a playoff team" is one of your favorite refrains.

 

No, it's really not one of my favorites. It's their phrase used repeatedly over the past seven years and one that Giroux has used on many occasions.

 

I don't at all deny that the teams have had serious problems over that time period. But I'm not the one calling them "definitely a playoff team" year after year.

 

They are.

 

It seems misguided to criticize me for pointing out essentially exactly what you're pointing out. They have not been "definitely a playoff team". And, yes, rather than saying that, he should be saying "we really need to work harder to do better if we're going to make the playoffs."

 

Resting on playoff laurels that haven't been earned hasn't helped.

 

28 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

There are many places to point the finger for the team's recent futility, making the team's best player (and one of the top 10 guys in the whole league over his career) the place to start seems misguided, at best. 

 

I don't point a finger solely at him all the time or, in fact, at all. The organization - a term I've come back to using loosely - has been a hot mess.

 

But I was responding, in this case, specifically to Occ questioning whether "they" should strip him of the C before he becomes the longest tenured captain in organization history.

 

For the record, stripping him of the C rightnow does very little and I don't advocate doing it. I just don't think that the results of his tenure warrant not stripping him of it just because we're less than a season away from him being the longest tenured captain in organization history. That's what I was responding to with that post.

 

YMMV, which is fair.

 

That said, I do find it difficult to credit him being "one of the top 10 guys in the whole league over his career" based solely on a gaudy points total when he can't even crack the lineup consistently on his home country's national team unless it's in a situation where most of the top Canadian players are still playing in the NHL playoffs. It seems there are a lot of "hockey guys" out there who simply don't see him as the Can't Miss Top Ten Superstar that many Flyer fans do. It's not at all unusual to see players post big points numbers being the focal points of bad teams.

 

I've said consistently for years that he would have been better off staying as a playmaking winger with an A than put into two roles - first line center and captain - that he had never played prior to being in the NHL. And it would seem that the results of putting him back into his natural position as a playmaking winger has paid off as I anticipated.

 

But as captain, his teams simply haven't accomplished much at all.

 

Again, YMMV, which is fair. People have different opinions and can look at the same situation from different perspectives.

Edited October 18, 2019 by radoran

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

you tip your cap and sit the **** down. - that sucks

 

Well there’s one thing we agree on concerning Braun. 

[mojo1917]

16 minutes ago, radoran said:

No, it's really not one of my favorites. It's their phrase used repeatedly over the past seven years and one that Giroux has used on many occasions.

 

Do you really think I missed your meaning or somehow wasn't understanding the context in which you've used this phrase ? 

I would have thought the years of back in forth on this topic  we've had would count for something.

23 minutes ago, radoran said:

I've said consistently for years that he would have been better off staying as a playmaking winger with an A than put into two roles - first line center and captain - that he had never played prior to being in the NHL. And it would seem that the results of putting him back into his natural position as a playmaking winger has paid off as I anticipated.

 

yes you have. 

34 minutes ago, radoran said:

That said, I do find it difficult to credit him being "one of the top 10 guys in the whole league over his career" based solely on a gaudy points total when he can't even crack the lineup consistently on his home country's national team unless it's in a situation where most of the top Canadian players are still playing in the NHL playoffs.

 

Well he's certainly no Kris Kunitz that's for sure...

 

Bottom line for me is this, he didn't make himself captain, he's been a good soldier and been the best leader he knows to be. 

Without question he has been the best player on this team for the last 8 years.

He's not the problem.

We both want to see the team win sooner rather than later, I don't want to see him wind up with an Ernie Banks or Dan Marino type career. 

 

Talent wins, working harder has yielded 1st round playoff defeats. 

For me; a bad middle leader tells the folks they're responsible for they're not up to the task at hand. That message goes up not down. 

YMMV.

[radoran]

2 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

He's not the problem.

 

We have had a good repartee over the years and I don't mean to imply we don't know where each other is coming from.

 

I completely agree he's not "the" problem. For me, at this point, the jury is out on whether he is the solution. Being the "best player" over the past seven years just hasn't meant terribly much and I do think we've seen examples of players putting up big point totals on bad teams. I certainly hope that the team does better this year and I would not at all be upset to see him be a part of winning here. He has been a "good solider" and, to that extent, "deserves" it.

 

15 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Talent wins, working harder has yielded 1st round playoff defeats. 

 

Talent is a part of it, no question. Brelic questioned whether we have enough gamebreaking talent and he may very well be onto something. But this team has also yet to play as more than the sum of the parts, and a not insignificant part of that comes from leadership.

 

15 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

For me; a bad middle leader tells the folks they're responsible for they're not up to the task at hand. That message goes up not down. 

 

I don't think that's what I'm saying at all. It's more along the lines of "we're good enough to get there, but we need to make it happen, not expect it."

 

I do think there is a dichotomy between telling your teammates "you're good enough, you're smart enough, and doggone it people like you" versus "we need to be better if we're going to make the playoffs." Granted, the former is something of hyperbole, but I'm not comfortable with a mindset that says "we're obviously going to make the playoffs" when they have missed them for four of seven years and haven't won a round in the three they got in.

 

We're starting this season again with the feeling that this team "should" make the playoffs. I'm in the mindset that they could make the playoffs, but there's a LOT they need to do to actually get there.

[brelic]

Good back and forth, guys. 

 

I think what all of this really speaks to is a frustrated fan base living through an unprecedented period of badness/mediocrity for this franchise. Fresh from expansion, the team made the playoffs in their first year, and 4 of the first 6 years. 

 

Then there were the 89-93 dark years with no playoffs.

 

So it's a strong case that this is the franchise's worst stretch of futility / insignificance despite having one of the top NHL point producers this decade.

 

For me personally, the frustration is in seeing NJ benefit from two #1s, but moreso Toronto deliberately bottoming out and turning it around rather quickly with top level elite talent to emerge as a Cup contender.

 

Hextall chose the path familiar to Flyers fans - the on-the-fly retool. *Something* had to be done following the drunken Homer years to return this franchise to sustainability. But Hextall's solution, we're seeing, has not yielded true elite talent nor has it kept the team competitive. They've burned through three coaches and a GM.

 

Whatever you might think of Patrick and his ceiling, there is no denying that he is one of the weakest top 2 picks of the decade. Ain't much we can do about that but hope he reaches MUCH MUCH higher than he has shown thus far.

 

We're 2-2-1. 

 

Let's see how they do the next 5.