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Trade Giroux F away


phlfly

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Giroux is same as John Tavares. John Tavares is good as Giroux, but Isle were suck with him all there time . 

Giroux or John Tavares can be elite players but in these teams. John Tavares decided to see Toronto, and it's good fo him, as with Mattews he can look a d big help. 

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11 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Imagine Detroit without a playoff series win in 7 years...

 

You clearly never heard of "The Dead Things" era. I think at one point they had one series win in twenty years. And that was because they didn't make the playoffs almost all those years.

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3 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

You clearly never heard of "The Dead Things" era. I think at one point they had one series win in twenty years. And that was because they didn't make the playoffs almost all those years.

 

From 1966-1977: one playoff appearance, lost first round

1978: won "preliminary round" 2-0, lost in quarterfinals

1979-1986: two first round losses

 

So, yeah - could be worse...

 

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There's no way Ottawa takes on Jake or Ghost or both. 

 

Aside from a cheap owner, why would they trade away a 1st rounder when it's looking like they might have two lottery balls very close to the bottom? SJ will turn it around, but how much? They're not looking like a very well put together roster.

 

This is a potential franchise changing year for them (actually bad team and two 1st round picks), and if it were the Flyers in that position, I would shoot Fletch if he gave up on that opportunity to bring in "overpriced" and "aging" talent like Jake. 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, brelic said:

Aside from a cheap owner, why would they trade away a 1st rounder when it's looking like they might have two lottery balls very close to the bottom?

 

Well, because every team in the league is there to make deals that benefit the Flyers. Duh. 👺

 

To your point, they certainly would not trade away their lottery first rounders because the cheap owners then gets cheap talent.

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4 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

You clearly never heard of "The Dead Things" era. I think at one point they had one series win in twenty years. And that was because they didn't make the playoffs almost all those years.

 

Sure but NOT with Yzerman that was the comparison...

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I was going to take my time and come up with a response, but I see that the exact same (silly) point was raised almost a year ago to the day, so I'll just quote my own post from that time:

 

Quote

 


Over the years, I ask myself this question: Would Ken Holland do this?

 

I don't think Holland would look at the Flyers today and determine that it's Claude Giroux that should go, and I think that he firmly belongs in the "keep good players" portion of Bill Torrey's great quote "It's no secret, it's not complicated. Get good players." to which I long ago added "... and keep good players."

 

Giroux is a good player (better than that, but you get my meaning). The key is to improve the players who can be improved on, and you will never get back equal value for a player like Giroux. In a time where hockey trades are gone in favor of dealing contracts and cap hits, I don't see how you can win a deal where you trade.

 

Would Ken Holland do that? To my mind, not in a million years. He kept his good players.
 

 

 

I have little respect for hockey teams that look around at so-so results and decide to blame their best player(s), and my respect for the hockey smarts of fans who take the same approach can be guessed at from that statement. The Oilers had several GMs that did this, and look how badly it set them back.

 

Anybody who would do it is so dumb they would probably put a ruler under their pillow to see how long they sleep.

 

Edited by JR Ewing
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50 minutes ago, JR Ewing said:

I was going to take my time and come up with a response, but I see that the exact same (silly) point was raised almost a year ago to the day, so I'll just quote my own post from that time:

 

 

I have little respect for hockey teams that look around at so-so results and decide to blame their best player(s), and my respect for the hockey smarts of fans who take the same approach can be guessed at from that statement. The Oilers had several GMs that did this, and look how badly it set them back.

 

Anybody who would do it is so dumb they would probably put a ruler under their pillow to see how long they sleep.

 

 

 I sleep about 23 centimetres.

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20 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Imagine Detroit without a playoff series win in 7 years...

imagine it, i can remember it, they used to suck nearly as bad as the Penguins.

For much of my youth Pgh was the worst team in hockey and if they weren't they were the 2nd worst.

There was a 20 year stretch where Detroit was just boring and terrible. 

It's not hard to imagine when you've seen it.

 

@JR Ewing

you are a great poster. hilarious with good insight. 

 

Edited by mojo1917
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1 hour ago, JR Ewing said:

I have little respect for hockey teams that look around at so-so results and decide to blame their best player(s), and my respect for the hockey smarts of fans who take the same approach can be guessed at from that statement.

 

I don't at all "blame the best player" but when your best player is a guy who can't crack the lineup of his national team unless the "best players" are still playing in the NHL playoffs, I do start to question how much of a "best player" he really is and how essential it is to keep him.

 

Not riding him out of town on a rail. Just confirming the location of the train tracks at this point...

 

EDM is a tough thing. There were some just terrible decisions followed by terrible decisions. That said, they really weren't going to be able to keep all of those players with a capped world. And they arguably kept the best two in McD and Draisaitl.

 

Is what they got back enough is the question. And that's where not having a fire sale comes into play. And not hiring Chiarelli. I mean that decision was just crippling.

 

I'd deal Voracek to "shake things up" and "make a deal" but I wouldn't just give Giroux away.

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56 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I don't at all "blame the best player" but when your best player is a guy who can't crack the lineup of his national team unless the "best players" are still playing in the NHL playoffs, I do start to question how much of a "best player" he really is and how essential it is to keep him.

 

Not riding him out of town on a rail. Just confirming the location of the train tracks at this point...

 

I have no problem with asking questions, and I have no problem with assessing. Hell, point me in the direction of a reasonable manager that doesn't do it, right?

 

My issue is more with the people that would gloss over the measurable contributions of a player and point instead to what they consider to be his completely immeasurable deficiencies, and then just can't deviate from that standpoint. It's like they're sitting a stop sign and waiting for it change colour.

 

56 minutes ago, radoran said:

EDM is a tough thing. There were some just terrible decisions followed by terrible decisions. That said, they really weren't going to be able to keep all of those players with a capped world. And they arguably kept the best two in McD and Draisaitl.

 

They could still have Hall and Eberle on that roster today and be perfectly fine with the cap: those contracts are more than reasonable. That's the damned thing about it, because ChiaPete signed Lucic to the same contract that Hall is on today. No, they wouldn't likely be re-signing him this summer, but he didn't have to go anywhere.

 

Some here may remember my sense of panic and impending doom in the spring of 2015. As the trade deadline drew closer, the Oilers hadn't even begun negotiating a new contract with Jeff Petry, and I knew they would once again repeat their usual process of draft/develop/trade for pennies on the dollar with him. Of course, they did just that, and once again there wasn't anything approaching a replacement for his minutes.

 

Get good players, keep good players. It's the second part of that the Oilers have long struggled to do, sometimes for reasons beyond their control, and too often because they're just bad at their job of running an NHL team. It was because they hadn't kept a good defenseman that Chiarelli felt obliged to trade an elite LW for a 2D with no offense.

 

56 minutes ago, radoran said:

Is what they got back enough is the question. And that's where not having a fire sale comes into play. And not hiring Chiarelli. I mean that decision was just crippling.

 

With respect to hockey, Peter Chiarelli is so stupid, he thinks an innuendo is an Italian suppository. He took a look at the poor work of Lowe, Tambellini and MacTavish, said "hold my beer" and set off on a cascade of deals in which almost every single player who came in wasn't as good as the one who left. He's the opposite of that guy who started with a paperclip and traded his way to owning a house.

 

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1 minute ago, JR Ewing said:

My issue is more with the people that would gloss over the measurable contributions of a player and point instead to what they consider to be his completely immeasurable deficiencies, and then just can't deviate from that standpoint. It's like they're sitting a stop sign and waiting for it change colour.

 

The "G is suk" crowd has been staring at that sign for a looooooooong time.

 

Just now, JR Ewing said:

That's the damned thing about it, because ChiaPete signed Lucic to the same contract that Hall is on today

 

The Lucic deal is really what kills me.

 

Seven years with a No Movement Clause?

 

 

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On 10/29/2019 at 11:49 PM, phlfly said:

I'm serious since 2013 as he become captian this team either not qualify for playoffs or lost in first round which is same as not qualify. 

 

the guy is working hard enough to be an elite player with such salary . 

 

I said it two years ago and never changed my mind. he didn't bring to the team . we had 4 different coaches over his time and no results. Just trade him f away. he is curse for the team. 

 

A) It can't be done.  

 He has a NMC. 

 He might wave for some teams, but I'm guessing the only teams that he would waive for that can afford him are the Avalanche and the Canadiens and they both probably need that cap space to sign upcoming RFAs.

 

B) The exact timeline you're talking about is the timeline that some of us who have been paying attention have been knowing would be a complete disaster for the Flyers because of everything that Homer did.

 

C)  The man isn't a center.  Let's stop making him pretend to be one.  He played increasingly poorly at that position and only rebounded when put on the wing.  Let's LEARN from that and not put him at 1C again.  He's NOT GOING TO GET BETTER AT IT AT 31 years old. 

 

D) If you weren't having an absolute break down over this team's off ice actions in 2012-2013 and were wondering why others were, the ensuing 5 years was why.  We knew exactly what was coming.  We knew the team literally couldn't be good for at least 5 years.  

 

   In hindsight, perhaps a full rebuild wherein they traded Jake and Simmonds for picks just after they came to town would have been best.  But then there would have been at least 2-3 years of not middling hockey and first round exits, but absolute basement dwelling bottom feeding and the organization decided it could not weather that.  The merits of that outlook are a philosophical debate for another post.

 

Hextall did his damndest and rebuilt the team while not crashing (if not maintaining flight exactly).  Fletcher has acted similarly, clearly trying to complete the vision Hextal set out for the personnel on the ice.  

 

Essentially in 2013 when they canned Laviolette (which I believe was done for Laviolette, so he could go get a good job someplace and not for the team... and I'd guess it may have been done at his request), the writing was on the wall.  This team needed to rebuild, but because of Homer's contracts, literally couldn't do a hard restart for at least 5 years, so they did a soft one... one built on rebuilding the prospect pool that would take a LOOOOOOONG time to see come to fruition and which could be destroyed at any moment by a foolish signing.

 

Was JVR a foolish signing?  Did Hextall give in too soon to the pressures from Comcast and the fan base (and apparently his own players) to "make a splash" the minute he finally had some cap space?   Maybe he did.  I was never convinced.  But the fact remains that JVR was the 2nd best UFA available that summer... and Hextall DID try for the best UFA (Tavares).  

 

Did Fletcher make a mistake in bringing in Hayes?   (or at least for the dollars Hayes commands now?)  I had my doubts... at least in terms of the contract anyway.  

 

The long and short is that the team has been doomed since about the time you're talking about.  IMHO they have actually been doomed since the Richards and Carter trades / Bryzgalov signing / JVR for LUKE friggin Schenn summer.  But others will debate me on that.  They'd be silly.  That was a bunch of stupid ass moves by Homer that resulted in two cups for the Kings and the better part of a decade of crappy hockey for the Flyers.  

 

Anyway, the long and short is that Giroux can't be moved.  The question is in my mind whether he has too long been the best player on a bad team and has no sense of urgency.  There's no pay check for him to earn.  There's been no realistic hope of success for so long and internally, there have openly been no real expectations of success until last year.  Does he remember how to play that way?  

 

To suggest he's unskilled is a fallacy, so to my mind, it's time to pass the torch in terms of the motivational heart of this team.  TK, Farabee, Frost, Lindblom.  These guys don't know that they can't win.  They haven't been beaten down by 7 years of zero expectation hockey.  

 

They should have been better last year and they weren't, I believe because of Hakstol and the sort of motivational issues of which you speak.

 

They HAVE been better this year.  They've shown utter domination.  So what happened the last two games?  That's the question.  

 

and CAN AV and his most experienced coaching staff in the NHL figure it out in time to save the season?  That's the REAL question.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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You dont trade the best player on the team, and captain, becuase your team sucks. It isnt his fault that the coaches were hired. He disnt sign any goalies and he didnt draft any players. He has been a top level player with little to no drama surrounding him. Hell, i would argue that he has been stifled by what hes had to play with. In fact, if im him, maybe i request to be moved

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2 minutes ago, intheslot said:

Just Take the C away ... take the pressure away from him 

 With them mid-night feedings, 

 You can't trade him ..,only three more years on his contract ..

...just make the best of it ..

 

 

Why take his "C" ? What has happened that this will cure? And who exactly is his predecessor?

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47 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Why take his "C" ? What has happened that this will cure? And who exactly is his predecessor?

"Take away the C" this continues to be 1b of the dumbest **** flyers fans say.

The dumbest of course is "trade your best player".

for what ? to whom ? 

it's stupid - thanks for continuing to point out  that these thoughts are stupid. 

 

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https://www.inquirer.com/sports/columnists/philadelphia-flyers-alain-vigneault-dave-hakstol-scott-gordon-jake-voracek-20191031.html

 

Here's an article from Seilski.

Does this read to others as if Jake is laughing at the coach for saying he should play better ?

This is how I took it. 

now, here's a tweet from someone who was also in the room.

 

Always interesting how two eyewitness accounts can vary.

Also, am I interpreting Mike's column incorrectly ? or is he just not a good writer and his article mistakenly comes off as having a point of controversy ?

Either way - it's interesting.

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I would kick the tires on a trade such as offering Voracek and Morin to Detroit for Anthony Mantha and a 2nd before I would do that. The Red Wings are one of the few teams that might go for that, and have the cap space to take on Voracek's ridiculous contract.

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