Trade Giroux F away

[elmatus]

1 hour ago, FD19372 said:

I would kick the tires on a trade such as offering Voracek and Morin to Detroit for Anthony Mantha and a 2nd before I would do that. The Red Wings are one of the few teams that might go for that, and have the cap space to take on Voracek's ridiculous contract.

 

I can't see them going for that. Would you?

 

High profile vets typically only garner real interest from teams who feel they're one vet away from contention. Detroit is in a rebuild right now. I can't see them wanting a guy like Voracek, and Morin is really an AHLer at best at this point. Mantha on the other hand has been quite productive this year. I just can't see it.

 

If I'm looking at the list, I'd say maybe Colorado or Montreal. Those are pretty much the only two that seem to fit the bill imo. I'm not sure what contracts they have coming up though. They may need some of that cap space to resign some of their young guns or something.

[brelic]

1 hour ago, FD19372 said:

I would kick the tires on a trade such as offering Voracek and Morin to Detroit for Anthony Mantha and a 2nd before I would do that. The Red Wings are one of the few teams that might go for that, and have the cap space to take on Voracek's ridiculous contract.

 

But why would Detroit do that? 

 

Say our play on the ice doesn't improve, would you trade Konecny and a 2nd for Jamie Benn and a fringe NHL defenseman who can't crack their lineup?

[CoachX]

2 hours ago, intheslot said:

This team needs a leader on the ice.

 Cooter would be a choice ,Hays 

Someone who could lead this team in to battle each night ..

........I M O .

 

Hayes? Hes a fat, lazy and overpaid. And hes not even a flyers fan

 

Not a good choice

 

Coots? He is A choice. But so is Chris Stewart. I have not seen anything from Coots that suggests hes a leader. Im not sure how making him captain would get Jake to stop being a dumbass, or get the defense to stop playing like blind cinderblocks

 

I appreciate your enthusiasm though

[King Knut]

3 hours ago, FD19372 said:

I would kick the tires on a trade such as offering Voracek and Morin to Detroit for Anthony Mantha and a 2nd before I would do that. The Red Wings are one of the few teams that might go for that, and have the cap space to take on Voracek's ridiculous contract.

 

Look, it's early but Jakes on pace for a 67 point season at this point...and he's clearly not playing as well as he can.

He's historically been a .83PPG player for the Flyers and averages 69 points per season since coming to Philly and he's scored 80+ (or the equivalent in a strike shortened year) 3 times.  

 

Is it more ridiculous to give a guy who does that 8.25 million per year or to give a guy who's never topped 55points  7.14 million? 

 

If he's playing poorly, continue to cut his minutes or bench him to try to wake him up.

 

Right now, Jake's second on the team in scoring.  It's a little silly to say he's the problem.  

 

G?  One might be getting warmer there, but I for one think they need to gethim the hell off center.

 

Also... on the PP (on which they're once again not scoring) Jake and G are STILL playing on the wrong sides.  

 

I don't disagree with the suggestion that they have a complacency problem, but the PP isn't working at all and they have no center between them.  I think it's disingenuous for AV or anyone else to be a **** about it when he's not giving them the obvious tools to succeed yet.  Until he does, AV can share the blame with the two of them as far as I'm concerned.  

 

 

[radoran]

47 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Right now, Jake's second on the team in scoring.  It's a little silly to say he's the problem.  

 

Not if you've watched him on the ice.

 

I like statistics, probably more than the next guy, but there's stats and then there's play. He'e been lackadaisical and uninspired - again - for much of the season. Including starting the season in his home country

 

Then there's the fact that he's been on the score sheet in four of 11 games and they're 2-2 when he does.

 

1/3 of his points are in the Edmonton debacle. Yes, a power play goal to make it 1-1, but then an assist to make is 6-2 and a power play goal to make it 6-3 - both late in the third period when Edmonton had clearly taken the foot off the pedal.

 

Another third of them came against Columbus. "A win is a win" and all that, and I'll give him credit for being an important factor in one of 11 games so far even considering the competition. That extended into scoring the first goal against the Isles, and then notching a point early in the third to cut the lead to 5-3 in another loss.

 

That's eight points in three games and the team was 1-2. His other point was in the blowout over Vegas.

 

I'm OK with "not the problem" but I'm not sold on "not a problem."

 

For that matter, neither Gee nor Vee have been "the" problem for the past seven years. I'm just hard pressed to rely on the theory that they're both necessary parts of "the solution."

Edited November 1, 2019 by radoran

[brelic]

The reality as far as what Fletch might actually do is trade one of Ghost or Voracek. Things will have to get a lot worse, and they need to have a really good trade option. 
 

There’s no way they trade G or Coots. 

[King Knut]

39 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I'm OK with "not the problem" but I'm not sold on "not a problem."

 

For that matter, neither Gee nor Vee have been "the" problem for the past seven years. I'm just hard pressed to rely on the theory that they're both necessary parts of "the solution."

 

I’m in agreement especially with the last sentiment. 

 

I guess my point is, imagine how bad THE problem is if your 2nd leading scorer-who is playing on a line without a center, and on his off wing on the PP-is the one getting singled out. 

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, brelic said:

The reality as far as what Fletch might actually do is trade one of Ghost or Voracek. Things will have to get a lot worse, and they need to have a really good trade option. 
 

There’s no way they trade G or Coots. 

 

I seen where Kilngberg is going through a rough start...wonder if they would do a Ghost Klingberg trade...might have to add to it but it's a start...

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

It's not even game 20. That's usually when they come to life. Right now, it's all about changing the mindset in Philadelphia. The play is actually there, but these are guys who are still afraid to make mistakes. The direction is there and you can catch it in glimpses when things are firing on all cylinders. 

 

Of note, look at Vigneault's history with the other teams he's coached and the play has been the exact same in the first year. The first 20 games are usually the time it takes for the system to come together and then everything takes off in the final 60. As long as they are closer to 500 I'm content. 

[radoran]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

I’m in agreement especially with the last sentiment. 

 

I guess my point is, imagine how bad THE problem is if your 2nd leading scorer-who is playing on a line without a center, and on his off wing on the PP-is the one getting singled out. 

 

I am trying to imagine that.

 

They've changed coaches. They've changed GMs. They've added talent through trades and free agency.

 

And they're the same middling squad they were before.

 

I don't think they should blow it up now. I'm not advocating for a fire sale.  I just think they need to show a LOT more before the end of the year or something may need to happen.

[JR Ewing]

2 hours ago, radoran said:

 

Not if you've watched him on the ice.

 

I like statistics, probably more than the next guy, but there's stats and then there's play.

 

 

A statistician is sitting with one foot in a bucket of ice and his other foot in a bucket of fire. On average, he says, he feels just fine.

 

[radoran]

4 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

It's not even game 20. That's usually when they come to life. Right now, it's all about changing the mindset in Philadelphia. The play is actually there, but these are guys who are still afraid to make mistakes. The direction is there and you can catch it in glimpses when things are firing on all cylinders. 

 

Of note, look at Vigneault's history with the other teams he's coached and the play has been the exact same in the first year. The first 20 games are usually the time it takes for the system to come together and then everything takes off in the final 60. As long as they are closer to 500 I'm content. 

 

I agree they don't need to do something rash.

 

If they can go .500 over the next two weeks that'll be something of a good sign.

[FD19372]

3 hours ago, brelic said:

The reality as far as what Fletch might actually do is trade one of Ghost or Voracek. Things will have to get a lot worse, and they need to have a really good trade option. 
 

There’s no way they trade G or Coots. 

Yes, there is. This team has only made the playoffs 3 out of the last 7 years, so guess what? Everyone, including G and Coots, is available at the right price. I agree, however, that Ghost or Voracek will be among the first to be traded.

[flyercanuck]

15 hours ago, intheslot said:

This team needs a leader on the ice.

 Cooter would be a choice ,Hays 

Someone who could lead this team in to battle each night ..

........I M O .

 

 

 The guy has played TWELVE games for the Flyers and is on pace for 40 something points. Got benched by his previous two teams.

 

 Ya...he's earned the captaincy.

 

 I would die for that man.

[King Knut]

On 11/1/2019 at 7:35 PM, radoran said:

 

I am trying to imagine that.

 

They've changed coaches. They've changed GMs. They've added talent through trades and free agency.

 

And they're the same middling squad they were before.

 

I don't think they should blow it up now. I'm not advocating for a fire sale.  I just think they need to show a LOT more before the end of the year or something may need to happen.

 

I mean, yeah.  Absolutely. If they don't show a lot more by the end of the year, then something definitely needs to happen.  But they put Jake and G on the right sides of the PP and they scored two PP goals.  

 

Sanheim was ridiculously bad on 2 1/2  of the three goals (can't blame him on the third, but he was out there, so at that point it's just a jinx factor).  If it's not for that, the handily defeat the Maple Leafs on the back end of a back to back.  

 

Giroux and Jake are not going to play like Prime Legion of Doom without a center.  That much is obvious now.  At least Therien's sorted them out the PP and I just hope he sticks with it.  PP2 on the other hand... yikes.  

 

When Laughton comes back, they can have Coots or Hayes. I just happen to think in the intervening month, it makes sense to be playing Frost rather than forcing your top line to not be as strong as it should be. You're taking away your best weapons and putting the blame on them if they can't overcome it.  Seems like you're shooting yourself in the middle toe and blaming the other toes for your foot not working right.  Yes.  Giroux's the big toe, but damn... it still hurts.    

 

Right now, they're hanging in at just above .500.  That's not good enough even remotely, but if they can stay above .500 while they sort out the kinks, then at least they're not trying to drag themselves out of the grave yard like in recent years. .  All the divisional leaders are likely to cool off to be sure.  But Tampa, Toronto, the Penguins and even the Devils aren't going to be out of the hunt all season.  

 

The silver lining as far as I can see is that the defense is better than they're showing, the question is why are they showing what they are.

The offensive upside is that lindblom, coots and tk have been carrying things and there are pretty simple and obvious things that can help the top line.  

 

To me, JVR is the odd man out. 

If I could trade him, I would.  

I also don't think it's entirely his fault.  

 

Hextall brought him in because he was the 2nd best player available that off season and the best player (Tavares) was only ever signing in TO.  

 

Hextall had cap space for the first off season since he took over, the organization wanted him to spend it, the fans wanted him to spend it, the team wanted him to spend it and specifically lobbied for JVR.  

 

The only problem is that they didn't have an obvious hole for JVR skills to fill.  

This year, with Simmonds gone they actually could have at least a PP net front slot for him to fill, but with the emergence of Lindblom & Farabee to go along with G, Jake & TK, there just isn't a puck hammering top 6 spot.  That's not the game they're going to play and his skillset doesn't jibe with the other 3rd line players.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[radoran]

51 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Right now, they're hanging in at just above .500.  That's not good enough even remotely, but if they can stay above .500 while they sort out the kinks, then at least they're not trying to drag themselves out of the grave yard like in recent years.

 

Right they are 6-5-2 with 14 points this year after 13 games. I just get the sinking feeling that I've seen this movie before...

 

Last year after 13 games they were 6-7 and went 3-0-1 in their next four. And that was with a "coach who couldn't coach", "no second line center", a "bad defense", and (already) three goalies.

 

New coach(es), new 2C, added depth at D and +2 points. I almost feel like Thanos - "all that for a drop of blood?"

 

In fact, they were pretty much a .500 team all the way through the first week of December, when they went 0-3-1 and they canned Hackstol. They bounced up to 15-16-5.

 

The 0-6-1 that really put them into the "graveyard" followed that with a new coach and a called-up Carter Hart.

 

I need to see more from this group before I start giving them any benefit of the doubt.

[King Knut]

3 minutes ago, radoran said:

I need to see more from this group before I start giving them any benefit of the doubt.

 

There's not benefit of the doubt going on as far as I'm concerned.  

 

They're playing much better.  If you look at more than just the record, in terms of some actual concrete numbers (faceoffs, shots, PK, corsi, expected goals) they're literally playing these games better (with the exception of three absolute clunkers). 

 

I don't disagree with anyone's assessment of anything or where they'll end up.  

 

I can hope the defense gets it's act together.  

 

I will say that after the islanders game, they started having some more intense position and player specific practice sessions.  

 

All I guess I am saying is that Giroux really needs to be back on LW, I'm glad he's playing the left side on PP1 and if it hadn't been for Sanheim pooping the bed a few times, Saturday would have looked pretty good.  As it was, he scored the tying goal to make up for one of his ill timed bowel movements.  

 

I'm not saying I have faith in them or am giving them any benefit of the doubt. 
Just that I don't have reason to condemn them just yet.  The Penguins game was pretty damn close though.  

 

 

[radoran]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

They're playing much better.  If you look at more than just the record, in terms of some actual concrete numbers (faceoffs, shots, PK, corsi, expected goals) they're literally playing these games better (with the exception of three absolute clunkers)

 

They have had some improvement. No question. And they're still in the bottom half in both goals for and goals against.

 

The PP is better, and they're 22nd in ESGF. The PK is better, and they've given up the 11th most ES goals.

 

At this point they're 25th in Strength of Schedule. They've beaten one team that is "in the playoffs" at this point - Western wild card Vegas. Two of the "clunkers" came against the Pacific-leading Edmonton and perennial power Pittsburgh.

 

This was an opportunity to get off to a good start and bank some early points. They squandered it. Regardless of the better play, they're pretty much in the same place they were last year at the same time.

 

The schedule only gets tougher.

 

2 hours ago, King Knut said:

Just that I don't have reason to condemn them just yet.  The Penguins game was pretty damn close though.  

 

I'm not condemning them. They are what they are.

 

We hoped for more. We hope for more.

 

I'm not #FlyorDie I'm #showmeorgoaway.

[phlfly]

Statistics meant nothing. As I'm living in DC area I watch some Caps games, and some those players I never heard but they are looked great in Caps. Just one name Wilson,, avg player but look like "Giroux'' playing with top lines !. Just saying. Giroux is just no good, as to be a leader of the team.He needs to go and may will change Flyers line up eventually, as now they are building around him. 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

2 hours ago, phlfly said:

Statistics meant nothing. As I'm living in DC area I watch some Caps games, and some those players I never heard but they are looked great in Caps. Just one name Wilson,, avg player but look like "Giroux'' playing with top lines !. Just saying. Giroux is just no good, as to be a leader of the team.He needs to go and may will change Flyers line up eventually, as now they are building around him. 

 

Just stop making an ass out of yourself when it comes to Giroux. The man has been the ultimate Flyer. Giroux has done nothing but carry this club on his back when Holmgren emptied everything and Hextall didn't bother trying to fill it with pieces to help Claude. That's the reality. As for being an 'average' player, that truly shows how much of an idiot you really are if you believe that. Yeah, he's started a bit slow this year, but with Couturier, Lindblom and Konecny picking up the offensive slack, it's allowed Giroux time to adjust to yet ANOTHER new system. As for Vigneault calling him out, Vigneault knows that Giroux can deliver more and this isn't about a sign of disrespect, it's a sign of Vigneault knowing that and lighting a fire under Giroux, which is working. Now that Claude is up to 9 points in 13 games, you can see that he's beginning to get on a roll and when he does, that's when he starts scoring points in bunches, which means the Flyers will then have two legitimate scoring lines. Don't forget either that Vigneault has played Giroux on the wing and at center and has bounced him with multiple linemates while trying to find a legitimate third center to balance the club.

 

I'm sorry, but all this talk of Giroux and moving him pisses me off. People here are so quick to turn on a guy that has given his everything to this club and it pisses me off even more when people make up such ridiculous **** about the guy. Tom Wilson couldn't sniff the sweat off of Giroux's jockstrap. I'm willing to bet that if the Flyers move Giroux, it sets them back four or five years, guaranteed. Move Giroux and Giroux being average. Stupidest bunch of crap I've ever read.

[radoran]

1 hour ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

Just stop making an ass out of yourself

 

For your next trick, get fish to stop swimming.

[King Knut]

13 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

Just stop making an ass out of yourself when it comes to Giroux. The man has been the ultimate Flyer. Giroux has done nothing but carry this club on his back when Holmgren emptied everything and Hextall didn't bother trying to fill it with pieces to help Claude. That's the reality. As for being an 'average' player, that truly shows how much of an idiot you really are if you believe that. Yeah, he's started a bit slow this year, but with Couturier, Lindblom and Konecny picking up the offensive slack, it's allowed Giroux time to adjust to yet ANOTHER new system. As for Vigneault calling him out, Vigneault knows that Giroux can deliver more and this isn't about a sign of disrespect, it's a sign of Vigneault knowing that and lighting a fire under Giroux, which is working. Now that Claude is up to 9 points in 13 games, you can see that he's beginning to get on a roll and when he does, that's when he starts scoring points in bunches, which means the Flyers will then have two legitimate scoring lines. Don't forget either that Vigneault has played Giroux on the wing and at center and has bounced him with multiple linemates while trying to find a legitimate third center to balance the club.

 

I'm sorry, but all this talk of Giroux and moving him pisses me off. People here are so quick to turn on a guy that has given his everything to this club and it pisses me off even more when people make up such ridiculous **** about the guy. Tom Wilson couldn't sniff the sweat off of Giroux's jockstrap. I'm willing to bet that if the Flyers move Giroux, it sets them back four or five years, guaranteed. Move Giroux and Giroux being average. Stupidest bunch of crap I've ever read.

 

While I appreciate your vigor in defending Giroux, I will point out that Hextall's dilemma upon taking over (and he admitted as much) was that the contracts and cap hits that Holmgren had burdened the team with made it so he literally could not surround Giroux with better players.  It took some wizardry just to get it so he could ice an NHL team in the early running.

 

Hextall did however screw Giroux by saddling him with a bad NHL coach in Hakstol.  The team could have been a playoff team the last two years at least and should have won the Penguins series two summers ago.  Goaltending was a major problem (again, something I really find it difficult to blame on Hextall for necessary reasons no one ever likes to talk about) but they were simply very poorly coached and for that I will blame Hextall.  Two seasons of Hakstol was an acceptable experiment, but it was clear at that point it wasn't going to work out.

 

There's nothing wrong with Giroux as a player.  He's going to go down as the Flyers 2nd best forward ever.  If they can manage to win a cup before he retires, he's a HoF lock.  He got saddled with Holmgren's mistakes for the meaty part of his career and for him that's a crying shame.  But for us, it's left the team just good enough for us to think maybe they could succeed.  

 

Thing is, they actually are good now.  They're a very talented bunch.  But guys like Provo, Ghost, TK, Patrick, Laughton, Hagg... remember.  They've never played NHL hockey for NOT HAKSTOL before.  Which means they've never been coached by an NHL coach before.  They've been coached by an NCAA coach their entire professional careers and for Provo, TK and Patrick, that's their entire professional careers.  At least some of them got some time in the AHL under Gordon.  

 

AV, Therrien and Yeo have a lot of brainwashing to undo.  It ain't gonna happen overnight.

 

That said... they need to get Giroux off center.  Period. 

[FD19372]

20 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

While I appreciate your vigor in defending Giroux, I will point out that Hextall's dilemma upon taking over (and he admitted as much) was that the contracts and cap hits that Holmgren had burdened the team with made it so he literally could not surround Giroux with better players.  It took some wizardry just to get it so he could ice an NHL team in the early running.

 

Hextall did however screw Giroux by saddling him with a bad NHL coach in Hakstol.  The team could have been a playoff team the last two years at least and should have won the Penguins series two summers ago.  Goaltending was a major problem (again, something I really find it difficult to blame on Hextall for necessary reasons no one ever likes to talk about) but they were simply very poorly coached and for that I will blame Hextall.  Two seasons of Hakstol was an acceptable experiment, but it was clear at that point it wasn't going to work out.

 

There's nothing wrong with Giroux as a player.  He's going to go down as the Flyers 2nd best forward ever.  If they can manage to win a cup before he retires, he's a HoF lock.  He got saddled with Holmgren's mistakes for the meaty part of his career and for him that's a crying shame.  But for us, it's left the team just good enough for us to think maybe they could succeed.  

 

Thing is, they actually are good now.  They're a very talented bunch.  But guys like Provo, Ghost, TK, Patrick, Laughton, Hagg... remember.  They've never played NHL hockey for NOT HAKSTOL before.  Which means they've never been coached by an NHL coach before.  They've been coached by an NCAA coach their entire professional careers and for Provo, TK and Patrick, that's their entire professional careers.  At least some of them got some time in the AHL under Gordon.  

 

AV, Therrien and Yeo have a lot of brainwashing to undo.  It ain't gonna happen overnight.

 

That said... they need to get Giroux off center.  Period. 

Then, after they trade Voracek and his outrageous salary, find another that is reasonable - one who can play on eother of the first two lines. If Giroux doesn't like that, because he's Voracek's BFF, they can trade Giroux in the off-season.

Edited November 5, 2019 by FD19372

[radoran]

18 minutes ago, King Knut said:

He's going to go down as the Flyers 2nd best forward ever.

 

No, he's really not. I like the rest of the post, but this is beyond the pale.

 

You've got Lindros and Clarke off the top of my head. There's probably another handful in the discussion.

 

He's got to at least win a playoff series before he's going to be in the conversation.

[King Knut]

7 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

Then, after they trade Voracek and his outrageous salary. Find another that is reasonable, and can play on both of the first two lines. If Giroux doesn't like that, because he's Voracek's BFF, they can trade Giroux in the off-season.

 

Once again (because both myself and reality are gluttons for punishment who don't know when to quit) Voracek's salary is league standard for his production.  If he were a UFA right now, he might get more.  There is nothing wrong with Voracek's salary vs. his production.  

 

If you condemn his salary or his production, you're just making yourself look silly.

 

You can go ahead and claim that he's lazy or needs to shoot more or only scores when they're up or down by a lot already or whatever the flavor of the week whiny crap is, but the reality is, he produced at a high level for his position and players who make more than him do worse and players who make less than him do better.  He's really just at an acceptable salary.

 

Kevin Hayes?  Not so much.

JVR?  He was at an okay salary until this year.  we'll see if he warms up and heats up.

Coots?  He's a steal.

Simmer was highway robbery.  

 

NOW that that's out of the way, if we want to talk about the wisdom of keeping him vs. trading him for first round picks and doing a harder reboot of the team, I'm all ears. In hindsight, I think it may have been the way to go.  Hextall did well in the draft each of his years here, but when I think of how well he'd have done if he'd had even more first round picks... it starts to seem like the hard rebuild would have been the way to go.  Especially with the talent we see coming out of the first round in the last 6 years.  

 

NOW that said (as with all my perpetual complaints about Homer) has to be taken in the context of an aging dying Ed Snider... a factor which apparently influenced EVERYTHING happening behind the scenes with this team from 2010 onward.

 

I know people claim he wasn't sick yet when Homer lost his mind in 2012 and blew up everything (but oh yes, let's please talk some more about how it's too soon to say LA won the Richards trade).  But desperation was clearly screwing with people's minds.