brelic Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 22 hours ago, King Knut said: The silver lining as far as I can see is that the defense is better than they're showing, the question is why are they showing what they are. It's probably a combination of things, and I would guess youth is a significant one. Provorov, 22 Sanheim, 23 Myers, 22 Hagg, 23 Half our defense is 23 or under. Sanheim is struggling. Ghost is older but struggling. So is Braun. We basically have Provorov and Niskanen playing well. Myers has shown good instincts, but he's only got a 2 game sample. If they can go *at least* 3-3-1 over the next 7, that would bring them to 9-8-3 through the first 20 games. Not great, but still in a decent position to surge once/if they get their act together. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 3 minutes ago, radoran said: No, he's really not. I like the rest of the post, but this is beyond the pale. You've got Lindros and Clarke off the top of my head. There's probably another handful in the discussion. He's got to at least win a playoff series before he's going to be in the conversation. He's won one. that's it though. That's not good enough, but again... that's why I wrote the rest of my post. He's third in games played, he's 2nd in assists, he's 10th in goals and he's 4th in points. He'll likely be 2nd in points if he finishes out his contract. We may not like it, but history will almost assuredly remember him as the 2nd best flyers forward. I'm not trying to defend him or celebrate him. I know what I think about him and I'm not certain he should be captain myself. Regardless of his own play and the B.S. his GM's and coaches have put him through (HE'S NOT A CENTER!!!!!) he doesn't have that thing that a team like this needs from it's captain where he inspires guys to go out and play their butts off from the opening puck drop. Is that his fault or is that something you can't just conjure up? I'm not sure. I don't care. He doesn't inspire the rest of the team to be better than they are. He silently tries to set an example by himself. Not sure that's going to cut it. Problem is Coots is pretty similar (I guess I tore my MCL), Jake is a clown, Hayes vanishes for games on end and the entire defense is still trying to figure out how to iron it's game into shape. So who should be the captain? Just saying... Justin Williams is technically available and I assume waiting until January to accept an offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 3 minutes ago, brelic said: It's probably a combination of things, and I would guess youth is a significant one. Provorov, 22 Sanheim, 23 Myers, 22 Hagg, 23 Half our defense is 23 or under. Sanheim is struggling. Ghost is older but struggling. So is Braun. We basically have Provorov and Niskanen playing well. Myers has shown good instincts, but he's only got a 2 game sample. If they can go *at least* 3-3-1 over the next 7, that would bring them to 9-8-3 through the first 20 games. Not great, but still in a decent position to surge once/if they get their act together. Yeah, this also goes back to my point about how they're not just young, but for all of them, (and you can add in Ghost too) they only have half a season of NHL games played NOT under an NCAA coach masquerading as an NHL "mind". 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, King Knut said: HE'S NOT A CENTER!!!!! Been saying that for years. Ever since they put him there. I still remember Bill Clement lauding him as a "natural center" when they did it - a position he had never played in his career before the NHL. 2 minutes ago, King Knut said: He's third in games played, he's 2nd in assists, he's 10th in goals and he's 4th in points. He'll likely be 2nd in points if he finishes out his contract. Empty stats at this point. His 10 points in 23 playoff games as captain is the glaring difference. Putting up gaudy regular season point totals on a terrible team doesn't make you the second best forward in franchise history. Again, Lindros and Clarke are clearly ahead of him right off the bat. He's no where near to surpassing either of them. 7 minutes ago, King Knut said: He doesn't inspire the rest of the team to be better than they are. He silently tries to set an example by himself. I also don't see where he makes the players around him better. That's a vital part of being "second best forward in Flyers history." He's a very good player. Still not great. I honestly don't know if he makes the HHoF based on his current resume. Also not sure getting a Cup as a complimentary piece late in his career does it. Lead a team to the Cup? That would do it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 56 minutes ago, radoran said: No, he's really not. I like the rest of the post, but this is beyond the pale. You've got Lindros and Clarke off the top of my head. There's probably another handful in the discussion. He's got to at least win a playoff series before he's going to be in the conversation. Leach, mcliesh, tocchet, kerr, barber....etc This is fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 1 minute ago, CoachX said: Leach, mcliesh, tocchet, kerr, barber....etc This is fun There's this one guy who had as many goals in five years as Giroux has in his career to date... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 1 hour ago, radoran said: He's got to at least win a playoff series before he's going to be in the conversation. You mean as captain right ? He has been on teams that have won playoff series- went to the finals once, true story. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 5 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: You mean as captain right ? He has been on teams that have won playoff series- went to the finals once, true story. Yes, as captain. Obviously 2010 happened. And obviously he was on the team in 2011. He was an important, but complimentary piece on that. As "the second best player" and "longest termed captain" in Flyers history, playoff success has been something that hasn't happened. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 1 hour ago, radoran said: honestly don't know if he makes the HHoF based on his current resume. Also not sure getting a Cup as a complimentary piece late in his career does it. This is assuming current levels of production going forward ? A slight decline ? No more points from this moment forward ? JR Ewing did the Keltner test on Giroux a while back and he scored "borderline HHoF". I think just playing out this contract and not sucking (which he doesn't) will give him the career #s to be a hall of fame player. Of the people with similar numbers to G's more than half are in the hall. So I'm inclined to think unless he stops playing hockey today, he's likely to make the HHoF. The man can't help he was the center piece on a bad team for long time. I do agree with KK when he says this team has talent now, let's hope an NHL coach can get them to play winning hockey. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 58 minutes ago, CoachX said: Leach, mcliesh, tocchet, kerr, barber. I wished Kerr would have been able to play longer. I have always thought Tocchet was overrated maybe because he went and played then coached in Pgh. Like Marc Recchi I don't consider him to be a Flyer, even though both were, and were very good when they were here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 17 hours ago, phlfly said: Statistics meant nothing. As I'm living in DC area I watch some Caps games, and some those players I never heard but they are looked great in Caps. Just one name Wilson,, avg player but look like "Giroux'' playing with top lines !. Just saying. Giroux is just no good, as to be a leader of the team.He needs to go and may will change Flyers line up eventually, as now they are building around him. Tom Wilsons greatest season in the NHL is 40 points. Claude Giroux has had ONE season under 47 in his entire NHL career...his first...when he was brought up halfway through the season and put up 27. Please just STFU. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 6 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: Of the people with similar numbers to G's more than half are in the hall. So I'm inclined to think unless he stops playing hockey today, he's likely to make the HHoF. "borderline" is a good term. I just don't think he's a slam dunk at this point. And not a first-ballot, must-induct. 8 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: The man can't help he was the center piece on a bad team for long time. I do agree with KK when he says this team has talent now, let's hope an NHL coach can get them to play winning hockey. Certainly not "blaming" him for it. Again, he's a very good player. He's not a "great" player yet. When the average hockey fan not from Philadelphia thinks of the great players of this era, I just don't think he's put himself in that conversation. No, it's not entirely his fault. But, again, 10 points in his past 23 playoff games hasn't helped his case. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 31 minutes ago, radoran said: Obviously 2010 happened. Did it? Man, it was so long ago that it doesn't feel real. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, brelic said: Did it? Man, it was so long ago that it doesn't feel real. Still winning the trades! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 24 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: Of the people with similar numbers to G's more than half are in the hall. So I'm inclined to think unless he stops playing hockey today, he's likely to make the HHoF. Giroux Regular season 820gp 236g 526a 762pts Playoffs 69gp 24g 41a 65pts Sundin Regular season 1346gp 564g 785a 1349pts Playoffs 91gp 38g 44a 82pts G's not far off the pace of a guy like Sundin who never won anything but maintained a pretty consistent and productive career. Fun side fact - G has fewer career PIMs (352) than Schultz (472) did in one season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 (edited) @mojo1917 @brelic Absolutely, he's on track for the HHOF. Look at the ten most statistically similar players to Giroux: Thru 12 Years Adjusted Point Shares (Best to Worst) Player 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Claude Giroux 11.8 10.6 10.2 8.8 8.5 7.9 7.9 6.9 4.9 4.3 3.1 -0.1 Adam Oates 96.4 12.0 10.3 9.9 8.9 7.8 7.7 7.6 7.1 5.1 3.8 2.9 0.5 Henrik Sedin 94.0 13.5 10.5 9.6 8.7 8.7 7.7 7.6 7.1 4.9 4.0 3.4 1.9 Zach Parise 93.3 12.8 11.5 9.4 8.9 8.6 8.1 7.6 7.2 6.6 4.3 2.7 0.6 Bobby Clarke 93.1 11.3 10.9 10.2 9.4 9.0 8.1 7.8 6.0 4.9 4.8 3.9 3.3 Jason Spezza 92.4 11.6 10.5 10.4 9.2 8.1 7.6 6.8 6.6 6.4 5.9 2.1 1.3 Michel Goulet 92.2 11.9 9.9 9.2 8.9 8.9 8.5 6.8 6.4 5.0 4.4 3.4 2.9 Peter Bondra 91.8 12.1 10.6 10.3 10.2 10.2 8.6 7.1 7.0 5.2 4.4 4.3 1.7 Mark Messier 91.8 11.6 9.2 9.1 9.0 8.2 7.2 6.8 6.8 5.1 3.9 3.6 0.9 Marian Gaborik 91.5 12.1 11.6 11.2 8.9 8.9 8.5 8.1 6.2 5.2 4.9 3.8 3.4 Ted Lindsay 91.5 10.6 9.9 9.0 9.0 8.9 8.5 8.0 7.4 5.6 5.1 2.4 0.9 That's sixHOFers, a shoe-in (Sedin) plus Parise, Spezza and Gaborik. Re: Sundin: It's even closer when you account for the different offensive eras they were in, because Sundin broke in when scoring was more plentiful. I'll even be more fair, and compare them up the same age, because Giroux hasn't really entered the the decline phase of his career and Sundin's numbers include that portion of his time. Adjust Points/82 Games, thru Age 31 Giroux, GP 833, APTS 914, 90.0 APTS/82 GP Sundin, GP 1005, APTS 1058, 86.3 APTS/82 GP Edited November 5, 2019 by JR Ewing 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 8 minutes ago, JR Ewing said: ...Giroux hasn't really entered the decline phase of his career Give him chance! He's really trying to get there by the looks of it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, brelic said: G's not far off the pace of a guy like Sundin who never won anything but maintained a pretty consistent and productive career. You may recall, I'm no fan of Mr. Sta-Puft being in the HHoF Sundin got in in no small part due to being in Tronno for so freaking long (where he *did* captain the team to two Conference Finals), being a "trailblazer" for the Swedes, and his international successes (where he was a big part of a gold medal winning Team Sweden). Giroux/HHoF is not a debate we'll need to have for some years now, and hopefully he will have made the decision easier by then... Edited November 5, 2019 by radoran 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 23 hours ago, CoachX said: Leach, mcliesh, tocchet, kerr, barber....etc This is fun In ten years, we'll see what history says. I remain convinced, for better or worse, when the hockey world talks about the best Flyers... they'll say Lindros could have been the best, Clarke was the best and Giroux was the 2nd best overall. Hopefully they say it because he took them all the way at least once. Hopefully at that point Farabee and Frost will also be in the discussion for what people will be saying in the next ten years (dare I dream) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 21 minutes ago, King Knut said: In ten years, we'll see what history says. I remain convinced, for better or worse, when the hockey world talks about the best Flyers... they'll say Lindros could have been the best, Clarke was the best and Giroux was the 2nd best overall. Hopefully they say it because he took them all the way at least once. Hopefully at that point Farabee and Frost will also be in the discussion for what people will be saying in the next ten years (dare I dream) Sorry but this should be a trade Jake Voracek thread not Giroux. Jake is a 8 million boat anchor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 24 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: Sorry but this should be a trade Jake Voracek thread not Giroux. Jake is a 8 million boat anchor. I miss the days when Cooter was the whipping boy. And look forward to the day when Hayes is it. The only one safe from the whip is probably Provy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 No one is safe! This is Philly 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 23 hours ago, mojo1917 said: I have always thought Tocchet was overrated You take that back! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 4 minutes ago, ruxpin said: You take that back! Lol I missed this in @mojo1917 's OP. Blasphemery and Treason are in the air it seems. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 21 minutes ago, Podein25 said: And look forward to the day when Hayes is it. Well help expedite moving Jake then you have to do your part.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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