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vis

Vigneault/Players Dynamic

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Wonder what the coach/player dynamic is like inside the locker room these days.  Vigneault has not been shy about challenging players publicly and adjusting TOI accordingly.  I love his approach.  You know Therrien is being hard (probably borderline abusive) on some of the players.  Not sure what Yeo's style is, but you've seen him be (embarrassingly) passionate at practice.  Wonder how all this is sitting with the players, particularly Messrs. Voracek and Gostisbehere.  Voracek looks completely lost, moreso than usual.  Ghost has been bad, though I thought he started OK.  I don't think Voracek or Ghost respond well to the whip.  At what point do things get beyond repair between the staff and those two players?  Honestly, I can see Jake and Ghost basically shutting down rather than rising up.  Their days are likely numbered.

 

On another note, is anyone aware of a site that tracks the number of times a player is tossed from the FO circle?  I swear Hayes was tossed from more FOs than he took in the NJ game.  Aside from that, I love what Hayes brings to the team.

Edited by vis
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57 minutes ago, vis said:

On another note, is anyone aware of a site that tracks the number of times a player is tossed from the FO circle?  I swear Hayes was tossed from more FOs than he took in the NJ game.  Aside from that, I love what Hayes brings to the team.

 

I noticed that, too!  I don't think that is a tracked stat, one face off wins & losses.

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1 hour ago, vis said:

I don't think Voracek or Ghost respond well to the whip. 

Boo Hoo. They respond well to their paychecks, though, don't they? If that's the case, I want them both gone tomorrow. They have a good NHL level coach now. Time to grow up and play better. I say that to both the 26 year old and the 30 year old.

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7 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

Boo Hoo.

Tend to agree, but different people respond better to different tactics.  And some people don't respond at all, regardless of the tactic.  I'm not criticizing the staff, as I think this team generally needs the "whip" until it earns the staff's trust.  So, at this point, I tend to agree that those that don't respond are probably better off parting ways.  Besides, this group has had a variety of coaches and styles over the years and they haven't done much under any of them.

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1 hour ago, AlaskaFlyerFan said:

 

I noticed that, too!  I don't think that is a tracked stat, one face off wins & losses.

Next game I watch, I'm going to try to track it.  It was very noticeable in the Devils game.  Felt guys from both teams were getting tossed regularly, but Hayes was the most frequent offender.

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this coach will last until end of the season at max, my bet buy Feb they let him go. 

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On 11/4/2019 at 6:10 PM, vis said:

I don't think Voracek or Ghost respond well to the whip.  At what point do things get beyond repair between the staff and those two players? 

 

Projected production aside, where Voracek projects to his usual mid 60's low 70's points totals he's had games where he has looked disinterested. Most notably the game in Pittsburgh where he was on the ice in favorable match ups and got out worked by AHL tweeners with speed.  BTW that whole Pens team skates like the ****** wind, depending on who can stay healthy they could realistically be the best team in the East. 

As a guy that wears an A and has a big contract, I expect more from him than what I'm seeing currently. Is he having trouble with AV's system ? Is he having difficulty being in the leadership group without Simmer ? 

I hope Jake "figures it out", as the saying goes. He's one of Mrs Mojo's favorite players, he cemented  his place there when he cussed out the ref at the Islanders game in March last year...and she thinks Gritty's look is based on him. I like him too, I think he's a good player who when he's going well is fun to watch. 

My fear with him is similar to the fear I have with Ghost and that is perhaps he is uncoachable, which I think is the case with Ghostisbehere.

With 53 I've seen multiple quotes where he's said "I've got to play my game" which may or may not work in the context of playing with 4 other dudes who are playing the coaches game. He's been just so-so in his end  this year and he's made some game changing poor choices in the neutral and offensive zones so far this year. 

Not sure if he's lost a step; but the shimmy he had to his game doesn't seem to be as effective as it once was either, same goes for his shot which is no longer overwhelming goaltenders as it once did.  

 

I appreciate the coach's directness and his willingness to use his credibility to get more from these guys. 

My hope is they respond. 

Edited by mojo1917

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15 hours ago, phlfly said:

this coach will last until end of the season at max, my bet buy Feb they let him go. 

 

Not a chance. A new GM brought in an entire new coaching staff made up of three people with a considerable amount of coaching experience, including a HC with one of the better records of the last decade. I'm not saying they'll be around forever obviously, but they're absolutely going to get several years (or at least Vigneault is -- one of the others could always get plucked).

 

The short of it is AV is here to stay for quite a while yet. GMs don't bring guys like this in for one season or half a season or whatever. He's a long-term hire.

Edited by elmatus

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18 hours ago, vis said:

Wonder what the coach/player dynamic is like inside the locker room these days.  Vigneault has not been shy about challenging players publicly and adjusting TOI accordingly.  I love his approach.  You know Therrien is being hard (probably borderline abusive) on some of the players.  Not sure what Yeo's style is, but you've seen him be (embarrassingly) passionate at practice.  Wonder how all this is sitting with the players, particularly Messrs. Voracek and Gostisbehere.  Voracek looks completely lost, moreso than usual.  Ghost has been bad, though I thought he started OK.  I don't think Voracek or Ghost respond well to the whip.  At what point do things get beyond repair between the staff and those two players?  Honestly, I can see Jake and Ghost basically shutting down rather than rising up.  Their days are likely numbered

Maybe they can all be issued blankies and pudding cups before taking naps in their safe spaces

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34 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Maybe they can all be issued blankies and pudding cups before taking naps in their safe spaces

 

I'd go for a blankie and a pudding cup right about now. 

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10 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

I'd go for a blankie and a pudding cup right about now. 

That is not "phrasing" for sheep now is it...…...

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6 minutes ago, flyerrod said:

That is not "phrasing" for sheep now is it...…...

 

Busted

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On 11/4/2019 at 6:10 PM, vis said:

Wonder what the coach/player dynamic is like inside the locker room these days.  Vigneault has not been shy about challenging players publicly and adjusting TOI accordingly.  I love his approach.  You know Therrien is being hard (probably borderline abusive) on some of the players.  Not sure what Yeo's style is, but you've seen him be (embarrassingly) passionate at practice.  Wonder how all this is sitting with the players, particularly Messrs. Voracek and Gostisbehere.  Voracek looks completely lost, moreso than usual.  Ghost has been bad, though I thought he started OK.  I don't think Voracek or Ghost respond well to the whip.  At what point do things get beyond repair between the staff and those two players?  Honestly, I can see Jake and Ghost basically shutting down rather than rising up.  Their days are likely numbered.

 

On another note, is anyone aware of a site that tracks the number of times a player is tossed from the FO circle?  I swear Hayes was tossed from more FOs than he took in the NJ game.  Aside from that, I love what Hayes brings to the team.

 

Hayes has been trailing off in recent games.  I think he could help balance things if he centered a  line with JVR and Jake (which would be the most beautifully overpaid line in the NHl most likely), but that would leave Frost for the Giroux and Farabee line (I'm only thinking of things in terms of Frost being up and G being a LW again). I'm not sure that's a bad thing, but I'm not sure it's a good thing... I think it's a thing worth trying though.

 

Ghost and Voracek will respond fine.  It's going to be a process.  They're going to get notes and things to work on and they're going to get better, then worse, then better than worse and better again.  One of the things you're seeing now is both of them kind of chilling out and focusing on their defense a bit.  Ghost in particular needs to not be paired with Braun.  Braun isn't very good at this point but doesn't offer any offensive upside either.  They're the weakest pairing for a reason. 

The other two pairings have been okay... or at least when Sanheim doesn't fall over they're okay.

 

Fletcher should never have picked up Braun.  And at the very least, AV should not be playing him every night.  I said this two years ago, and I'm saying it again now... you want Ghost to be good?  You gotta let Ghost be ghost.

 

sacrificing what he does well in favor of marginally improving his D will not help any team.  compensating for his defensive holes while he does what he does well will do this and that wasn't something Hakstol was interested in or couldn't accommodate with the talent he had.  AV is doing it on paper, pairing him with a guy like Braun, but frankly, I think Braun should be out of the lineup.  Someone with size who can take up space and cut down lates, who can skate and play well in his own end is who should be paired with Ghost so to my eyes, that's Myers or Morin.  Hagg in a pinch, but the size and skating of the other two helps a bit more.

 

I'm just not sure Ghost remembers how to do what came so naturally before at this point.  

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, King Knut said:

Hayes has been trailing off in recent games.  I think he could help balance things if he centered a  line with JVR and Jake (which would be the most beautifully overpaid line in the NHl most likely), but that would leave Frost for the Giroux and Farabee line (I'm only thinking of things in terms of Frost being up and G being a LW again). I'm not sure that's a bad thing, but I'm not sure it's a good thing... I think it's a thing worth trying though.

 

 

I still would rather see Hayes with Giroux and Farabee. I think those three would compliment each other very well.

 

We need Laughton back is the truth of it. I don't think we're going to see Frost any time soon.

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On 11/5/2019 at 9:43 AM, mojo1917 said:

My fear with him is similar to the fear I have with Ghost and that is perhaps he is uncoachable, which I think is the case with Ghostisbehere.

This is my concern as well.  Or maybe they lose confidence when coaches criticize or try to change their games.  Or maybe they just don't want to listen.  

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On 11/5/2019 at 1:06 PM, CoachX said:

Maybe they can all be issued blankies and pudding cups before taking naps in their safe spaces

Might work for some!

 

The coach/player relationship has changed dramatically.  Players have so much power nowadays and are told how great they are that they can probably demand naps and pudding cups and get them.

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22 hours ago, King Knut said:

Hayes has been trailing off in recent games.

Kind of noticed that as well, at least in the last couple.  Part of it may have to do with his linemates and/or role.  Still think Hayes is contributing in other ways.  have zero problem with him to daye.

 

22 hours ago, King Knut said:

Ghost and Voracek will respond fine.  It's going to be a process.

Less concerned about Voracek than Ghost.  Ghost hasn't responded to anything the past couple of years.  And Voracek has largely been the same player over that time as well.  We will see.

 

22 hours ago, King Knut said:

you want Ghost to be good?  You gotta let Ghost be ghost.

Not so sure about that either.  A few teams have demonstrated recently (Carolina, NYI) that success can be achieved by executing a system well and playing as a team.  When a player freelances or breaks the system, stuff starts to fall apart.  Besides, you'd think one place he'd excel "by being Ghost" is on the PP.  But yet he's not been good there either.  I wouldn't change my system or gameplan drastically to support Ghost.  

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1 hour ago, vis said:

Kind of noticed that as well, at least in the last couple.  Part of it may have to do with his linemates and/or role.  Still think Hayes is contributing in other ways.  have zero problem with him to daye.

 

Jake got an assist on JVR's PP goal last night and he and Hayes' corsi numbers were through the roof last night.  

 

Long story short is that if they can just do that and keep the puck in the other end, then they're doing their jobs to help the team win.  

 

It would be nice to see a few more pucks poke through once in a while, but neither player is terribly off his normal scoring pace.  As much as it may frustrate fans, and as boring as it ends up being for the hockey card stats, Hayes and Voracek mostly do their jobs to help the team win.  

 

Their Corsi's were atrocious agains the Canes though... but really so were everyone's The canes dominated the shots in that game, Ghost was the only on above 50%.  

 

1 hour ago, vis said:

Not so sure about that either.  A few teams have demonstrated recently (Carolina, NYI) that success can be achieved by executing a system well and playing as a team.  When a player freelances or breaks the system, stuff starts to fall apart.  Besides, you'd think one place he'd excel "by being Ghost" is on the PP.  But yet he's not been good there either.  I wouldn't change my system or gameplan drastically to support Ghost.  

 

We don't disagree about the system.  The problem is that Ghost is an X factor player.  Or at least he should be.   They've been trying to get him to commit and buy into the system, but there are situations when your system has to allow for opportunity when it presents itself.

 

When the puck bounces out to Giroux coming on for a change and he has a breakaway, you gotta let him take it.

 

Ghost should be a player who can see those opportunities and take advantage of them with his skates and his stick when he sees them.  It shouldn't be a normal part of his game, but when they need a goal and he sees a seam, he should absolutely have the ability to take it and know that his team mates will compensate for him doing so.  

 

This is the kind of thing that they develop into now, see happen once or twice a week, make some mistakes on, get burned once in a while so that they can pull it out when playoff time goes from push to shove.  

 

He's a tool in their box, they need to keep him and them sharp for when they really need it.  

 

All that said, taking Ghost off PP1 isn't helping him or PP1.  

 

 

1 hour ago, vis said:

Not so sure about that either.  A few teams have demonstrated recently (Carolina, NYI) that success can be achieved by executing a system well and playing as a team.  When a player freelances or breaks the system, stuff starts to fall apart.  Besides, you'd think one place he'd excel "by being Ghost" is on the PP.  But yet he's not been good there either.  I wouldn't change my system or gameplan drastically to support Ghost.  

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      Wonder what the coach/player dynamic is like inside the locker room these days.  Vigneault has not been shy about challenging players publicly and adjusting TOI accordingly.  I love his approach.  You know Therrien is being hard (probably borderline abusive) on some of the players.  Not sure what Yeo's style is, but you've seen him be (embarrassingly) passionate at practice.  Wonder how all this is sitting with the players, particularly Messrs. Voracek and Gostisbehere.  Voracek looks completely
    • 3
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      Tend to agree, but different people respond better to different tactics.  And some people don't respond at all, regardless of the tactic.  I'm not criticizing the staff, as I think this team generally needs the "whip" until it earns the staff's trust.  So, at this point, I tend to agree that those that don't respond are probably better off parting ways.  Besides, this group has had a variety of coaches and styles over the years and they haven't done much under any of them.
    • 2
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      Kind of noticed that as well, at least in the last couple.  Part of it may have to do with his linemates and/or role.  Still think Hayes is contributing in other ways.  have zero problem with him to daye.   Less concerned about Voracek than Ghost.  Ghost hasn't responded to anything the past couple of years.  And Voracek has largely been the same player over that time as well.  We will see.   Not so sure about that either.  A few teams have demonstrated recently (Carolina
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      this coach will last until end of the season at max, my bet buy Feb they let him go. 

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