Matt Dumba - Trade Him?

[IllaZilla]

21 hours ago, ClusterChuck said:

I'm not disputing the $ amounts. That's the market. 

Point is 1 good season and Payday?!?

At least Spurgeon has shown his worth for many seasons.

The rest you mentioned , We're they 1 season wonders before their payday contract.?

 

Depends on what you call a one season wonder. In my opinion, none of these guys are one season wonders. They've all put up very solid numbers prior to getting their first big deal. I tried to keep the ages the same and inserted when they signed their big deal. 

 

Tyson Barrie
Season  Age    GMS    G    A    PTS    +/-
2013-14    22    64    13    25    38    17
2014-15    23    80    12    41    53    5    
2015-16    24    78    13    36    49    -16
$5.5M Contract    
2016-17    25    74    7    31    38    -34

 

Colton Parayko
Season    Age  GMS G    A    PTS    +/-
2015-16    22    79    9    24    33    28
2016-17    23    81    4    31    35    7
$5.5M Contract    
2017-18    24    82    6    29    35    -7
2018-19    25    80    10  18    28    20

 

Esa Lindell
Season    Age GMS  G    A    PTS    +/-
2016-17    22    73    6    12    18    -3
2017-18    23    80    7    20    27    19    
2018-19    24    82    11  21    32    14
$5.8M Contract
2019-20    25    19    1    3        4       3

 

Matt Dumba
Season    Age GMS   G     A    PTS    +/-
2016-17    22    81    11    23    34    15    
2017-18    23    82    14    36    50    15    
2018-19    24    32    12    10    22    -5 (on pace for 60 points)
$6.0M Contract    
2019-20    25    18      3      5      8    -13

 

Jared Spurgeon
Season    Age  GMS G    A    PTS    +/-
2012-13    23    39    5    10    15    1    
2013-14    24    67    5    21    26    15    
2014-15    25    66    9    16    25    3
$5.187M Contract
2015-16    26    77    11  18    29    11

[Hockey-78]

On 11/13/2019 at 5:51 PM, ClusterChuck said:

Now that I get to see games a bit more, What's the general opinion on Hartman??

General... opinion of maybe 4 posters, pretty uncrowded here.

 

I think (from the very few games I've seen) he's been ok, not part of the solution nor the problem. 

 

It would be easier to see evaluate his input if the top6 would perform better. Now that they don't and the team fails, does that make Hartman a failure too? On the other hand, hard to compliment him since the team is constanly losing. But I think in his role, he's better than most players in recent years in the Wild jersey.

 

 

[ClusterChuck]

2 hours ago, IllaZilla said:

 

Depends on what you call a one season wonder. In my opinion, none of these guys are one season wonders. They've all put up very solid numbers prior to getting their first big deal. I tried to keep the ages the same and inserted when they signed their big deal. 

 

Nice comparison, Thanks.  

That's what I was looking for also in the others you posted. I'm looking for consistency and those have it.

The "one season wonder" of Dumba's last year made so many people think he's the next Burns.

The offensive stats overshadowed his defensive ability to the point it was acceptable.

But like I mentioned before, Last season I bought in on Matt becoming more of an asset than previous years and then to have the frustration of seeing him backslide to those previous years again so quick. (so far)

 

I'm ok if he's not traded as long as some improvement shows soon. I won't expect anything close to last year at this point tho.

But Guerin has to do many things and take some risks at this point.

 

 

[IllaZilla]

30 minutes ago, ClusterChuck said:

Nice comparison, Thanks.  

That's what I was looking for also in the others you posted. I'm looking for consistency and those have it.

The "one season wonder" of Dumba's last year made so many people think he's the next Burns.

The offensive stats overshadowed his defensive ability to the point it was acceptable.

But like I mentioned before, Last season I bought in on Matt becoming more of an asset than previous years and then to have the frustration of seeing him backslide to those previous years again so quick. (so far)

 

I'm ok if he's not traded as long as some improvement shows soon. I won't expect anything close to last year at this point tho.

But Guerin has to do many things and take some risks at this point.

 

 

I think it was more than his 50 point season. If you compare some of his earlier stats to Burns, they're very close or better.

 

He's steadily improved since the Wild drafted him. I used to be a Dumba hater, but he's shown me enough to where I'd be angry at the team if they traded him. If he hadn't gotten injured last season, he was on track for 60 points, which would have beat his previous season by 10 points.

 

Part of Dumba's backslide could just be the team in general. Zucker, Zuccarello, Parise, Kunin, Donato, etc. aren't scoring. So he may feel he needs to score. Which could lead to him take more chances than he should. Which results in more defensive lapses.

[Hockey-78]

On 11/14/2019 at 5:53 PM, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

 

Pretty much how this site is.... lots of overall hockey fans here who do read into what other teams are doing or offer commentary on things outside their own team.
 

I was being somewhat sarcastic about it. A few Flyers' fans got into a heated argument with couple of our posters, resulting in childish behaviour... I'd imagine the last thing they like to do is read and quote us. Well, to each his own.

 

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

28 minutes ago, Hockey-78 said:

I was being somewhat sarcastic about it. A few Flyers' fans got into a heated argument with couple of our posters, resulting in childish behaviour... I'd imagine the last thing they like to do is read and quote us. Well, to each his own.

 

 

I see.
I was just reinforcing the fact that posters here are all over the board in many cases...not just sticking to their "team forums".

I missed your sarcasm point...it wasn't evident. My bad.

[CreaseAndAssist]

21 minutes ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

 

I see.
I was just reinforcing the fact that posters here are all over the board in many cases...not just sticking to their "team forums".

I missed your sarcasm point...it wasn't evident. My bad.

 

That's cute.  I think we see our team rather honestly.  Would it matter to you what Wild fans think of the Tampa Bay Lightning?  I'm going to guess not.  I think most of us feel fairly confident that we can make our own judgements and form our own opinions here.    

 

Most of us arrived here from one place.  A team forum, run by that team.  We are not looking for approval or acceptance from the fans of other teams.  Do you want acceptance from us?  If so, I can give you a few hints...

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

1 minute ago, CreaseAndAssist said:

 

That's cute.  I think we see our team rather honestly.  Would it matter to you what Wild fans think of the Tampa Bay Lightning?  I'm going to guess not.  I think most of us feel fairly confident that we can make our own judgements and form our own opinions here.    

 

Most of us arrived here from one place.  A team forum, run by that team.  We are not looking for approval or acceptance from the fans of other teams.  Do you want acceptance from us?  If so, I can give you a few hints...

 

Right. Not a matter of seeking approval or not.
Not a matter of caring whether a fan of another team has an opinion on yours....you, I and anyone else are free to either interact or ignore that opinion.

Wild fans are not the only ones who can "see their team honestly"...and even that is a matter of perspective.

Again, because you seem to keep missing the point...I was simply pointing out that fans here do tend to go into any board they want.
Nothing more, nothing less.
I hadn't realized the comment I quoted had some sort of sarcastic point to it....wasn't evident. I made that clear.

Nothing to do with being told 'what to think' or seeking acceptance.
It just is what it is.
If you really have a problem with fans from other teams commenting on yours, you are free to ignore or block. It really is that easy...I have other 'hints and tips' for you too if you like.

Things don't need to be adversarial unless you'd like them to be.

[CreaseAndAssist]

5 minutes ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

 

Right. Not a matter of seeking approval or not.
Not a matter of caring whether a fan of another team has an opinion on yours....you, I and anyone else are free to either interact or ignore that opinion.

Wild fans are not the only ones who can "see their team honestly"...and even that is a matter of perspective.

Again, because you seem to keep missing the point...I was simply pointing out that fans here do tend to go into any board they want.
Nothing more, nothing less.
I hadn't realized the comment I quoted had some sort of sarcastic point to it....wasn't evident. I made that clear.

Nothing to do with being told 'what to think' or seeking acceptance.
It just is what it is.
If you really have a problem with fans from other teams commenting on yours, you are free to ignore or block. It really is that easy...I have other 'hints and tips' for you too if you like.

Things don't need to be adversarial unless you'd like them to be.

 

Please share those hints and tips.  I can't wait.  I am not missing the point at all.  You want to drop by and tell us how it is.  Sure, go ahead...tell us what really is going on with this team?    

 

Apparently we're missing something about the Minnesota Wild the fans outside of this regular posters of specific forum can clearly see.  What about Matt Dumba's game we somehow don't understand or realize?  

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

2 minutes ago, CreaseAndAssist said:

 

Please share those hints and tips.  I can't wait.  I am not missing the point at all.  You want to drop by and tell us how it is.  Sure, go ahead...tell us what really is going on with this team?    

 

Apparently we're missing something about the Minnesota Wild the fans outside of this regular posters of specific forum can clearly see.  What about Matt Dumba's game we somehow don't understand or realize?  

 

Again..no need to be adversarial.
Cherry picking comments, putting them out of context doesn't help matters.

Basically, and I will leave it at this, is don't be douche to people, and they shouldn't be that way to you.

Do what you  like, but ultimately, it likely ends up with you finding your way out.
Good day and good luck.

[CreaseAndAssist]

4 hours ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

 

Again..no need to be adversarial.
Cherry picking comments, putting them out of context doesn't help matters.

Basically, and I will leave it at this, is don't be douche to people, and they shouldn't be that way to you.

Do what you  like, but ultimately, it likely ends up with you finding your way out.
Good day and good luck.

 

Are you going to add to the discussion about Dumba's game or whether he should be traded?   I think he's played better as of late.  Will he go back on a pace like he last year?  Seems less likely, but at this point they need all the points they can get from any source right now.   

 

 

Edited November 16, 2019 by CreaseAndAssist
flaming / name calling /belittling members is against forums rules

[Hockey-78]

1 hour ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

 

I see.
I was just reinforcing the fact that posters here are all over the board in many cases...not just sticking to their "team forums".

I missed your sarcasm point...it wasn't evident. My bad.

I know. I just thought to let you know the background. It's all good.

 

I think here are only about 5 posters who actively participate in other team's forums. The Flyers' fans are usually pretty self-absorbed and go on for hours about only their team. I just found it funny one of them "secretly" quotes someone in their own forum without trying to engage in a discussion in another forum with the person whom he quotes.

 

So I would say "that posters here are all over the board in many cases" is a bit of a hyperbole.

 

Since I arrived here a year ago the amount of active posters has stayed about the same which I think isn't good. It's about the same amount we had in the dead and buried Wild forum alone. This place could really use some more active, wide-minded posters.

 

 

[CreaseAndAssist]

36 minutes ago, Hockey-78 said:

I know. I just thought to let you know the background. It's all good.

 

I think here are only about 5 posters who actively participate in other team's forums. The Flyers' fans are usually pretty self-absorbed and go on for hours about only their team. I just found it funny one of them "secretly" quotes someone in their own forum without trying to engage in a discussion in another forum with the person whom he quotes.

 

So I would say "that posters here are all over the board in many cases" is a bit of a hyperbole.

 

Since I arrived here a year ago the amount of active posters has stayed about the same which I think isn't good. It's about the same amount we had in the dead and buried Wild forum alone. This place could really use some more active, wide-minded posters.

 

 

 

Word...

[Alexandron]

On 11/12/2019 at 9:21 PM, CreaseAndAssist said:

There is no one else in the Wild's system that has Dumba's offensive talent from the blueline.  Either Johansson...not nearly enough offense.  Belpedio, hasn't been a big scorer in the AHL.  Menell has piled up the assists but he's not the goal scorer Dumba could be.  Let's not forget, Dubnyk's game has steadily eroded.  Is it just bad plays or poor choices...or is a sub-par goalie giving up soft goals?  Is that on Dumba?  I think it'd be short-sighted to ship him out at this point.  

Agree. We really do not have it besides Dumba.  Why we should waste his talent/ his slap shots/his vision in the offensive part of the team's play by trading him to the other team like we did with Burns? Instead of that we should look  to add to him some more offensively minded blueliners capable to help in defense either. I like Menell a lot, and even with his piles of assists we will be able to improve the offense of the big club, which is still not the best for decades in a league. Why we do not use him? I do not know. Same I would say about Mayhew situation. We should use them both more intense in the Wild team. Actually , I would like to see in the big club 3 players from the Iowa right now - Mayhew, Menell and Mat Robson(it seems a valuable goalie so far) and maybe the 4th player - Nico Sturm. 100 % agree regarding Dubnyk. He should be replaced ASAP. Too many softies coming out of the #1 goalie are not allowable. We have seen this for years.

I had a chance to drive yesterday next to the Xcel Energy Center and have seen so many cars of fans driving to the hockey game. They were driving to see our win, but not our loss. Like I said before, 5-6 years  is a long period of time for the team rebuild, and even 2-3 years are too much to wait to develop something extraordinary good. Life is too short - we need to live this moment , this current life like many fans do and enjoy with it despite of our stupid losses, stupid mistakes,stupid decisions. Some days these losses will be somehow resolved or by the team's improvement or will be eliminated by players injuries/their retirement/their trades. 

[J0e Th0rnton]

I have only caught a few Wild games this season but something is off. Not just with Dumba.

 

I spend a lot of time with live Hockey teams and The nagging feeling I have is that Boudreau has lost the room, the players are tuning him out and it is time for a coaching change. Mind you I have been saying the same thing about the Sharks and they have started turning things around under Deboer. But multiple players on that team do not look the same as they did even a year ago. When everyone looks off, something is up. Dubnik in particular looks really off.

 

They picked up a lot of young very talented players in the recent past. Fiala, Donato, Hartman. I was honestly expecting more. Hope they can foster a turnaround soon.

[CreaseAndAssist]

1 hour ago, J0e Th0rnton said:

I have only caught a few Wild games this season but something is off. Not just with Dumba.

 

I spend a lot of time with live Hockey teams and The nagging feeling I have is that Boudreau has lost the room, the players are tuning him out and it is time for a coaching change. Mind you I have been saying the same thing about the Sharks and they have started turning things around under Deboer. But multiple players on that team do not look the same as they did even a year ago. When everyone looks off, something is up. Dubnik in particular looks really off.

 

They picked up a lot of young very talented players in the recent past. Fiala, Donato, Hartman. I was honestly expecting more. Hope they can foster a turnaround soon.

 

(shrugs)  I don't think that necessarily is the case.   I say that because we've seen this team at a point where it was clear the coach lost the room in Mike Yeo's last few days and probably in John Torchetti's last few days.  It hasn't reached that level yet.  I think its really a team that is simply showing its age and its relative lack of skill, speed and scoring ability up front.  The team plays its games with a real small margin for error.  A few mistakes that lead to goals...and the team doesn't have the firepower to make up the lost ground.  

 

Is Boudreau's message running a bit stale with some of this group.  Maybe, but overall...the team hasn't given up on him.  Dumba's still mostly playing Dumba's game.  

[lynxrattle]

The next window of opportunity is years from now, at least 5 - 6 years away. The cap recapture penalty makes it too risky to trade 11 or 20, and even if we now start getting high first round picks, those picks won't turn into game changers immediately. C&A is right on not selling low, but when Dumba starts playing like he did last season, he should be traded for these reasons:

 

1. We need to re-stock our pick cupboard. Fletcher emptied it thinking we're a contender, and Fenton sold our selleable goods for no picks at all.

2. 5 - 6 years from now Dumba won't be the Dumba at his best anymore. Playing in a bottomfeeder team for years has its effects on players. Just think of our multiple trades with Buffalo. Constant losing infests players.

3. It's easier to trade for top D-men than for top forwards. We should get a 1C with a high pick, but if that fails we have a better chance of trading for a 1C if we have a couple of flashy, young forwards than if we have one flashy d-man.

4. Dumba has defensive defects in his game that mean nothing for a high scoring team, but kill a low-scoring team. We can't outscore an opponent that has just scored because of a Dumba turnover, or a Dubnyk style soft goal.

5. It ain't human to let Dumba suffer in a team like this, when he has the potentiality to go for a Burns or Karlsson kind of stature. The organisation has to pay attention to the human side of things as well. We've just seen what Fenton was able to do in just a year, by treating everyone as a machine with no emotions. The current state of the Wild hinders players from growing to their full potential.

[Hockey-78]

On 11/16/2019 at 5:57 AM, lynxrattle said:

The next window of opportunity is years from now, at least 5 - 6 years away. The cap recapture penalty makes it too risky to trade 11 or 20, and even if we now start getting high first round picks, those picks won't turn into game changers immediately. C&A is right on not selling low, but when Dumba starts playing like he did last season, he should be traded for these reasons:

 

1. We need to re-stock our pick cupboard. Fletcher emptied it thinking we're a contender, and Fenton sold our selleable goods for no picks at all.

2. 5 - 6 years from now Dumba won't be the Dumba at his best anymore. Playing in a bottomfeeder team for years has its effects on players. Just think of our multiple trades with Buffalo. Constant losing infests players.

3. It's easier to trade for top D-men than for top forwards. We should get a 1C with a high pick, but if that fails we have a better chance of trading for a 1C if we have a couple of flashy, young forwards than if we have one flashy d-man.

4. Dumba has defensive defects in his game that mean nothing for a high scoring team, but kill a low-scoring team. We can't outscore an opponent that has just scored because of a Dumba turnover, or a Dubnyk style soft goal.

5. It ain't human to let Dumba suffer in a team like this, when he has the potentiality to go for a Burns or Karlsson kind of stature. The organisation has to pay attention to the human side of things as well. We've just seen what Fenton was able to do in just a year, by treating everyone as a machine with no emotions. The current state of the Wild hinders players from growing to their full potential.

It's possible we've seen the best out of him. I mean most of the time he coasts aimlessly in the defensive zone.

 

I think his play for what it is at the moment could kill a high scoring team too.

 

Norris Trophy potential? If it was a slim chance to begin with, I'd be very skeptical at this point. He has cannon of a shot and superb skating but it ends there: he's doing nothing offensively worth mentioning, lacks awareness in the D, does he even hit players anymore?

 

Trade him for a center?

[Confrontational]

I think it's also a challenge for some of these guys when there are several players out hurt...  It's almost as if the young energy just gets zapped - where you'd think they'd be bringing in energy and trying new things...  Or maybe many of these players just aren't that good and we're expecting them to do things they just can't...

Edited December 16, 2019 by Confrontational

[CreaseAndAssist]

Dumba deserved his demotion to the 3rd pairing.  He's been crap at both ends of the ice.  You could almost accept reckless play in his own zone if he was scoring.  But he hasn't notched a point since November.  Soucy is just one point behind him and has more goals...to say nothing of the fact he's playing far better at either end of the ice these days.  

 

Is Dumba hurt, or did he really lose something in last year's injury?  

 

You watch him in the Wild zone and he just sort of stands there...turns and reaches for the puck.  He isn't moving his feet.  The offensively, beyond a couple one-timers on power plays...he's doing nothing to really help generate offensive pressure on a consistent basis.  

 

Yet to the original point of the thread...to trade Dumba now would be to sell him when his value is pretty damn low.  You have to bite the bullet, hope he starts to return to form and then evaluate whether he fits in your future plans or not.  If we have learned anything so far from Spurgeon's injury (and to an extent Pateryn's injury) is that Carson Soucy can play and Brennan Menell isn't too shabby either.  

[Hockey-78]

12 minutes ago, CreaseAndAssist said:

Dumba deserved his demotion to the 3rd pairing.  He's been crap at both ends of the ice.  You could almost accept reckless play in his own zone if he was scoring.  But he hasn't notched a point since November.  Soucy is just one point behind him and has more goals...to say nothing of the fact he's playing far better at either end of the ice these days.  

 

Is Dumba hurt, or did he really lose something in last year's injury?  

 

You watch him in the Wild zone and he just sort of stands there...turns and reaches for the puck.  He isn't moving his feet.  The offensively, beyond a couple one-timers on power plays...he's doing nothing to really help generate offensive pressure on a consistent basis.  

 

Yet to the original point of the thread...to trade Dumba now would be to sell him when his value is pretty damn low.  You have to bite the bullet, hope he starts to return to form and then evaluate whether he fits in your future plans or not.  If we have learned anything so far from Spurgeon's injury (and to an extent Pateryn's injury) is that Carson Soucy can play and Brennan Menell isn't too shabby either.  

You're making good points that I agree with but I'm not so sure... teams scout players for a longer period and can accept even longer slumps. Just because his recent stats are poor doesn't mean his trade value would be equally poor. There could be a player available, with similar recent form, and a GM willing to pull the trigger. A team like Toronto, in desperate need of getting a better D-man.

 

To my future plans he hasn't fitted for a long time but I'm no GM.

[lynxrattle]

I wonder if he hurt his hands in the fight last season in a way that effects his shot. If so, he won't have much trade value.

[IllaZilla]

5 hours ago, lynxrattle said:

I wonder if he hurt his hands in the fight last season in a way that effects his shot. If so, he won't have much trade value.

 

Doubtful his hands are the problem. Most likely his head. 

 

What is affecting his shot is that other teams have now realized that he has a cannon for a slapshot and aren't giving him any time or space for that windup. They close on him a lot quicker than they used to. He needs to figure out how to move better to give himself that time and space so he can wind up and let it rip. Or he needs to develop a wrist shot that can make it through traffic and into the net.

 

Maybe dropping him to the third pairing is what he needs to get straightened out. He doesn't need to be "The Man" on the third pair, so maybe that will take some of the pressure off him and he can get himself sorted.

 

I wouldn't look at trading him now anyways. Just because he's in a slump doesn't mean you jettison him. Because you're not going to get anything for him. He'll eventually turn things around. If he doesn't, expose him in the Seattle draft.

[CreaseAndAssist]

1 hour ago, IllaZilla said:

 

Doubtful his hands are the problem. Most likely his head. 

 

What is affecting his shot is that other teams have now realized that he has a cannon for a slapshot and aren't giving him any time or space for that windup. They close on him a lot quicker than they used to. He needs to figure out how to move better to give himself that time and space so he can wind up and let it rip. Or he needs to develop a wrist shot that can make it through traffic and into the net.

 

Maybe dropping him to the third pairing is what he needs to get straightened out. He doesn't need to be "The Man" on the third pair, so maybe that will take some of the pressure off him and he can get himself sorted.

 

I wouldn't look at trading him now anyways. Just because he's in a slump doesn't mean you jettison him. Because you're not going to get anything for him. He'll eventually turn things around. If he doesn't, expose him in the Seattle draft.

 

I agree 100% @IllaZilla.  Even if teams have been scouting him a long time, they're also not going to offer a top dollar to get us to deal him.  They're going to offer us crap and hope in a moment of frustration over Dumba's lack of production / poor play we'll take whatever garbage offer they make.  

[Hockey-78]

Everyone argumenting well but I have a sneaky suspicion one of us will be disappointed in the end...