Game 24: Canucks at Flyers; 11/25/19 @ 7

[OccamsRazor]

34 minutes ago, mkscrewy said:

a different kind of fan might eat crow and say he was wrong after what he wrote about Voracek in the "shortest books" thread, but i am not that kind of fan. if i've learned anything from this Administration it is to double down, so I am doubling down AND taking credit for his 1-game turnaround last night.

 

 

No need to trust a leopard can't change his spots....trust Jake will go back to floating if I am wrong I will eat half of your crow with you.

 

I have seen him do it for years it's just now seems more glaring because he isn't getting the random points here and there.

 

Jake is who we thought he was...

[King Knut]

17 hours ago, Podein25 said:

So Ghost back in, Hagg out tonight?

 

Is part of this AV platooning guys? 

 

Jake says he needed to get his "swagger" back and playing with Coots, he did (thinly veiled critique of Hayes?).

 

Similarly Ghost says he is having confidence issues (ater all that time with Hakstol cutting your minutes and benching you, I can't imagine how).  

 

Is sticking Ghost back out there with Braun (or Hagg for that matter), really the thing to do to get his confidence going again?

[brelic]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

He had a goal against the flames too.

3 points in 3 games since joining the Coots line.

 

We've seen with Jake & JVR that they need a strong play making centerman to score.  I think we've seen clearly that despite the $7million price tag, Hayes isn't that guy.  He does a lot of things extremely well and is an asset to this team, but he's not going to make plays to get JVR or Jake going.  

 

Frost likely isn't experienced enough to play that role without a Giroux by his side.

Patrick is still out.

 

If either one of those two factors changes, then I think you could see lines shifting again before the end of the season in a way that gets multiple lines going at once.  

 

It would be nice right now if the Frosty Gineckneys and the Oskar VoraCootses (Jake CouturaBloms?) could both put it in the net the same night, but they were both buzzing pretty good last night.  They were both crushing the possession and play driving.

 

Actually all 4 lines did pretty damn well with that last night.  The 4th gave up the goal on a turnover and Hagg got a little dominated, but other than that, they played a strong game.  It would just be nice in any and all of these games if there was just one more goal coming from all this dominance.  

 

It would mean several more points and position places.

 

 

The metrics are so weird with this team.

 

They are 5th in the Metro (would be 2nd in the Atlantic) and hanging on to the last wildcard spot. 

 

Their PK is 3rd in the league and PP is 12th. 

 

They allow the 2nd fewest shots per game and allow the 8th fewest goals against per game. 

 

They put up the 7th most shots per game, yet are 17th in goals scored per game.

 

With all of that said, they are 26th in team shooting % and 20th in team save %.

 

There are only 4 guys >= .900 on ice save %. Myers, JVR, Ghost, and G.

 

Pittsburgh has 13, Canes have 3, and Isles have 17. Canes have slightly worse team goaltending than we do (.905 vs .906).

 

Yet we are 10th overall in the NHL. Still a work in progress but doing very well considering.

 

[Podein25]

7 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

The metrics are so weird with this team.

 

They are 5th in the Metro (would be 2nd in the Atlantic) and hanging on to the last wildcard spot. 

 

Their PK is 3rd in the league and PP is 12th. 

 

They allow the 2nd fewest shots per game and allow the 8th fewest goals against per game. 

 

They put up the 7th most shots per game, yet are 17th in goals scored per game.

 

With all of that said, they are 26th in team shooting % and 20th in team save %.

 

There are only 4 guys >= .900 on ice save %. Myers, JVR, Ghost, and G.

 

Pittsburgh has 13, Canes have 3, and Isles have 17. Canes have slightly worse team goaltending than we do (.905 vs .906).

 

Yet we are 10th overall in the NHL. Still a work in progress but doing very well considering.

 

 

This just tells me that numbers, data, advanced stats, analytics - all of it, is just a bunch of hooey.

 

All you need is 20 guys willing to play for the guy sitting next to them every night. And a goalie.

 

And Gritty.  

[OccamsRazor]

17 minutes ago, brelic said:

doing very well considering.

 

 

That should be their new motto....

 

[OccamsRazor]

9 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

This just tells me that numbers, data, advanced stats, analytics - all of it, is just a bunch of hooey.

 

 

 

REPORTED!

[CoachX]

3 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

@RonJeremy

@brelic

 

$ bills y'all

 

There are far fewer rabid fans showing up at the rink because the rabid fans don't make the $ 600 to be able to spend it on a Monday at the rink.

It's over 160 for 3 people to sit top ring in the wfc.

Sports leagues are pricing a great deal of their customers out. It's not just the NHL.

 

The middle income joe that would most likely identify with the team and would show up and out for them can't come to rink but once or twice a year. 

Money makes the concourses nicer and the screens larger but kills vibe because less people can actually afford to use the amenities. 

 

I go to WFC once a year, I hate $13 miller lites and $ 25 chicken finger platters.  It's stupid expensive, and a thing that needs to be planned and saved  up for.

 

About the Game:

The Flyers played a little better than they did vs Calgary, I thought they played well vs Calgary. 

Got a better result, last night.  I think the puck was in the Vancouver end of the ice for 17 minutes of the 2nd period and that's counting 2 penalty kills. 

I thought the refereeing was weird. The flyers dominated large portions of that game , Vancouver was chasing and clutching and interfering and it didn't matter.  If a guy in an orange sweater looked at the blue paint funny the  arm went up.

It was noticeably bad last night. 

 

These are great points. If i didnt fly for free, there is no way in hell i would go to another live game. The only way i would consider it, would be if the on ice product was something special

 

Like the other post elluded to, hockey is becomg boring. I used to have passion aboit watching games, and would alter my schedule to make sure I could watch. Now, there isnt much to see. The hitting is sparce, fighting is non existent, and goals are not more than back when fighti g and hitting were prevalent

 

I miss the game the way it used to be

[Podein25]

2 hours ago, King Knut said:

crushing the possession and play driving

 

It's amazing how relatively quickly the language of hockey has changed. Not a criticism, just an observation. 

 

2 hours ago, King Knut said:

since joining the Coots line

 

Gimme a cloning machine.

 

It's funny thinking back to all the debate about him. One of the main points the pro-Cooter (aren't we all pro Cooter really?) camp made was that he makes the players around him better. Does he ever.

 

2 hours ago, King Knut said:

Patrick is still out.

 

Who?

[ruxpin]

7 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Like the other post elluded to, hockey is becomg boring. I used to have passion aboit watching games, and would alter my schedule to make sure I could watch. Now, there isnt much to see. The hitting is sparce, fighting is non existent, and goals are not more than back when fighti g and hitting were prevalent

 

I miss the game the way it used to be

 

It's almost like you wrote down my exact feelings.    Very well said!

[RonJeremy]

4 minutes ago, CoachX said:

These are great points. If i didnt fly for free, there is no way in hell i would go to another live game. The only way i would consider it, would be if the on ice product was something special

 

Like the other post elluded to, hockey is becomg boring. I used to have passion aboit watching games, and would alter my schedule to make sure I could watch. Now, there isnt much to see. The hitting is sparce, fighting is non existent, and goals are not more than back when fighti g and hitting were prevalent

 

I miss the game the way it used to be

Exactly,  the NHL is supposed to be a much more skilled league these days but the majority of Flyers games are unwatchable. With all this added skill i certainly dont see a more exciting product on the ice. I prefer the Flyer teams that had less skill and more desire.  I dont care what anyone says the games ten years ago were much more exciting. We have no personality, we need a new Hartnell on this team. TK is about the only guy on the team that stirs it up.

[CoachX]

4 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

Exactly,  the NHL is supposed to be a much more skilled league these days but the majority of Flyers games are unwatchable. With all this added skill i certainly dont see a more exciting product on the ice. I prefer the Flyer teams that had less skill and more desire.  I dont care what anyone says the games ten years ago were much more exciting. We have no personality, we need a new Hartnell on this team. TK is about the only guy on the team that stirs it up.

From 1970 to 1993, the NHL was scoring better than 3 goals per game. Since that time, the league has been under 3 goals in all but three seasons

 

The game has lost what made it great, and replaced it with an untrue result. 

 

 

[brelic]

11 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

It's almost like you wrote down my exact feelings.    Very well said!

 

Goals are rare events in hockey - sometimes you only get a few per game. That's a lot of waiting (2.5 hours) for very little excitement, and it might not even be your team.

 

Hitting used to occur regularly. There was emotion in the game and chippiness. That's all pretty much gone now. I've seen exactly one Flyers game this year that felt like a playoff game. There's another one that felt close (the NJ shutout).

 

So yeah, I agree that hockey for the most part is boring to watch. Or maybe more accurately, it's just that we haven't been treated to enough playoff hockey to enjoy. That's where real hockey is played.

[OccamsRazor]

3 minutes ago, brelic said:

That's a lot of waiting (2.5 hours) for very little excitement

 

That is why I just catch the highlights lately.

 

I thought about watching the game when I got home from work last night but I said nope.

 

It was "Days gone" on the PS4 time.

 

Love that game.

[ruxpin]

39 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

Goals are rare events in hockey - sometimes you only get a few per game. That's a lot of waiting (2.5 hours) for very little excitement, and it might not even be your team.

 

Hitting used to occur regularly. There was emotion in the game and chippiness. That's all pretty much gone now. I've seen exactly one Flyers game this year that felt like a playoff game. There's another one that felt close (the NJ shutout).

 

So yeah, I agree that hockey for the most part is boring to watch. Or maybe more accurately, it's just that we haven't been treated to enough playoff hockey to enjoy. That's where real hockey is played.

 

I agree that's some of it.

But there are far too many games for people to have to wait until the regular season is over to have anything interesting to watch.    Even in the playoffs, I wonder if it's actually the game itself that is exciting or just the tension/anxiety of who moves on.   I honestly think a lot of it is the latter.

 

Some of it is age for me, probably.  But most of it is that this is NOT the sport I fell in love with an dcheered for for over 30 years before its soul was crushed by expansion, rule changes,  blowhard commissioner and ownership group, wussified players and a strange focus on the "casual fan." Screw the casual fan.  You have to have a core fan base that is emotionally invested.  Because that casual fan is going to move on to the next thing as soon as you're not winning.  But they've taken the life and soul out of the product, knifed it with brain-damaged skills competitions to decide who wins, and priced most fans out of the ability to ever go see a game--which is pre-requisite to growing and then keeping an actual fan base.

 

And I really wish the cheerleaders of this destruction of the game would stop yammering about "I just want to see skill."  Then go watch figure skating and STFU if all you want to see is people skating around with skill for absolutely no purpose and leave hockey to people who actually like the sport.

Edited November 26, 2019 by ruxpin

[CoachX]

Ah, the casual fan. What a myth. Why excatly does a casual fan tune in to MMA or Boxing? It isnt to see the COMBATANTS touch gloves. 

 

New Mexico is not a hotbed of hockey enthusiasts.  However I met many, many, Flyers fans. Now, how is that possible? I often ask and it ia usually connected to how they tuned in casually to a game, and watched a hard hitting slugfest, to include fights. 

 

The casual fan doesnt tune in hoping to watch a tight defensive struggle that ends 2-1. Just like they dont tune in to see a pitchers duel in baseball

 

If the NHL wants the casual fan,  cut the leash and let these guys play the game with some damn aggression 

[ruxpin]

2 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Ah, the casual fan. What a myth. Why excatly does a casual fan tune in to MMA or Boxing? It isnt to see the COMBATANTS touch gloves. 

 

New Mexico is not a hotbed of hockey enthusiasts.  However I met many, many, Flyers fans. Now, how is that possible? I often ask and it ia usually connected to how they tuned in casually to a game, and watched a hard hitting slugfest, to include fights. 

 

The casual fan doesnt tune in hoping to watch a tight defensive struggle that ends 2-1. Just like they dont tune in to see a pitchers duel in baseball

 

If the NHL wants the casual fan,  cut the leash and let these guys play the game with some damn aggression 

 

Completely agree.

Now, keep in mind this story happened when I was 4 or 5 years old.   

 

My parents were at the house of a couple they were friends with.   They happened to have a Flyers game on.  I'd never seen hockey before and really didn't understand it.   Who I later knew as Bernie Parent was slamming his stick against the glass behind the net and I think screaming at the goal judge about something.  I don't know, but he was clearly irate but still had his white mask on.  I reasoned that he must be "the bad guy" (I was 4 or 5).  It was explained he was not.   Later, a bunch of them threw their "mittens" and were beating the hell out of each other.   

 

I have no recollection of who the other team was, but I went home a hockey fan that day.  Never looked back.

 

I realize it's old school now, but I miss the heck out of the 70s and, in particular, 80s style of hockey.    Even 90s.    I mean, I still watch parts of games and scoreboard watch and read articles, etc., but life no longer stops because a game is on.  Again, some of that is age.  Some of that is because PBS has a really cool documentary about dogs that just lie around but are skillful at it.

[brelic]

29 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

I agree that's some of it.

But there are far too many games for people to have to wait until the regular season is over to have anything interesting to watch.    Even in the playoffs, I wonder if it's actually the game itself that is exciting or just the tension/anxiety of who moves on.   I honestly think a lot of it is the latter.

 

Some of it is age for me, probably.  But most of it is that this is NOT the sport I fell in love with an cheered for for over 30 years.   I think it's soul has been crushed by expansion, rule changes, and a strange focus on the "casual fan." Screw the casual fan.  You have to have a core fan base that is emotionally invested.  Because that casual fan is going to move on to the next thing as soon as you're not winning.  But they've taken the life and soul out of the product, knifed it with brain-damaged skills competitions to decide who wins, and priced most fans out of the ability to ever go see a game--which is pre-requisite to growing and then keeping an actual fan base.

 

And I really wish the cheerleaders of this destruction of a game would stop yammering about "I just want to see skill."  Then go watch figure skating and STFU if all you want to see is people skating around with skill for absolutely no purpose and leave hockey to people who actually like the sport.

 

I mean, a bit part is that we no longer tolerate dangerous hits to the head, or just downright dangerous hits period. The league is not perfect, and definitely inconsistent, but the overall message is clear - it is no longer acceptable.

 

 

[hf101]

I dunno.  I went to last night's game and I rather enjoyed the tight stick handling, and intense defensive skilled play.  I mentioned after the game how so many won't appreciate the incredible skill it takes to play this type of game.    It sure beats the stupid center ice fights that some called hockey.

 

 

[brelic]

10 minutes ago, hf101 said:

I dunno.  I went to last night's game and I rather enjoyed the tight stick handling, and intense defensive skilled play.  I mentioned after the game how so many won't appreciate the incredible skill it takes to play this type of game.    It sure beats the stupid center ice fights that some called hockey.

 

 

 

That's fair. And millions of people feel that way, obviously, as the game keeps growing in fanbase and revenue.

 

But to me, it's like the difference between watching someone who is technically proficient on their instrument versus someone who is more visibly emotionally invested in their performance. Of course both can co-exist, and for the NHL, I think that's basically just the playoffs now. 

[ruxpin]

5 minutes ago, brelic said:

the game keeps growing in fanbase and revenue.

 

Well, when you put a team on every corner and  multiply the price of tickets 10-fold, both are bound to happen.

 

I'll take a little more of the fights and less of them playing with their sticks.

 

I reject the notion that people don't appreciate the skill, by the way.  To paraphrase Sheldon Cooper:  "I never said you weren't good at what you do.  It's just that what you do just isn't worth doing."

 

Again, take the nets down, put on tutu's and do a whole bunch of triple axels, Salchows and toe loops.  Extreme skill.  It's not hockey.

[ruxpin]

8 minutes ago, brelic said:

But to me, it's like the difference between watching someone who is technically proficient on their instrument versus someone who is more visibly emotionally invested in their performance. Of course both can co-exist, and for the NHL, I think that's basically just the playoffs now. 

 

This is actually a brilliant way of putting it.   Thank you for that.

[brelic]

2 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

This is actually a brilliant way of putting it.   Thank you for that.

 

Hey, every 4-5 years I say something worthy lol.

[hf101]

20 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Again, take the nets down, put on tutu's and do a whole bunch of triple axels, Salchows and toe loops.  Extreme skill.  It's not hockey.

 

There is a clear difference... A hockey game is played without music.

[King Knut]

 

2 hours ago, CoachX said:

From 1970 to 1993, the NHL was scoring better than 3 goals per game. Since that time, the league has been under 3 goals in all but three seasons

 

The game has lost what made it great, and replaced it with an untrue result. 

 

 

 

Your last statement certainly seems extreme to me.  

 

I absolutely HATED the game of hockey 10 years ago. 

The things teams like the Penguins and the Blackhawks would get away with to win those cups was disgusting to me and I absolutely hated it.  The idea of "hey, we're getting out played and we're down by a goal... let's hold their sticks or pretend to get hit in the face and get a double minor so we can get back in this thing!" is just fine as a tactic if you want to be an A-hole, but for the life of me, I can't figure out how the refs were falling for it.  My only guess is that the league had them so cued in to "interference" that they were predisposed to see a guy being unable to play the puck because his stick was being held as a "hook" in the other direction.

 

I miss the "give a crap" "find that extra gear" quality that Richards and Briere had going for them.  I don't miss throwing a bunch of money at Marty Biron or Jeff Hackett and thinking "What could go wrong?!"

 

But hey... Richards and Carter got laid a lot, so that had to end. Or something like that.  Honestly I forget. 

 

 Ultimately, out of those deals we will have gotten Coots, Frost, Farabee, Pitlick and 8 years of crap hockey 3/5 of which is a pretty good return.

 

The scoring went down in the early 90's essentially when the Devils won the cup with "The Trap" which was a load of horse crap because they essentially just got away with all kinds of interference, hooking and clutching and grabbing. So then everyone tried to do it.  Hockey decided to suck as a result. 

 

Around the same time, the league okay's enormous light weight goalie equipment.  Light weight I'm okay with and allowing the goalies to be more athletic is great.  But the size of the chest protector essentially taken away portions of the net.

 

They counterbalanced this is the carbon fiber sticks which allow for insanely hard and accurate shots, so for my money, it's a wash.

 

The clutch and grab (ahem) I mean "Trap" defenses have given way as well... however, what remains is what those teams like the redwings and devils purported to be doing back then and essentially playing positionally savvy defense that limits the magnificence of your star players to rise above the fray.

 

But as far as my middle aged eyes can see it now, the game seems to be on track from my POV.  The game is cleaner, more honest than it was then.  

 

We may see more of what you miss if the Flyers make it out of the first round ever again.  I think the playoffs are still that place where greatness can arise.

 

 

 

 

I 

[radoran]

Talking about the evolution of the game/league let's recall that there isn't a "loser point" in the playoffs. And a team that can't get reliable goal scoring isn't likely to have the success that being "eighth in the Conference" affords.

 

The Flyers are seventh among current playoff teams in goals for and have an even differential - the eighth place in playoff position goal scoring Islanders (four less goals in two fewer games) are +14. The ninth place overall Bolts have scored eight more goals in three fewer games and are +12. Only Florida has a worse goal differential among current playoff teams (-1) and they've scored 16 more goals.

 

Back in the beforetime, I was of the opinion that a "bad" season for the Flyers should be a bubble playoff team. After the past seven years, simply accomplishing that isn't getting me excited. I'm just tired of watching this "core" as they bumble along inconsistently.

 

Even if we go with the "make the playoffs and anything can happen" theory (which I don't put much stock in, as that line of thinking is  primary reason casinos are still in business), the Blues last year are maybe the best example of a "surprise" team winning the Cup since the lockout, and they were a Conference Finalist two years before.

 

"The best team" doesn't always win, but it's ridiculously rare that the team that sneaks into the playoffs wins the Cup.

Edited November 26, 2019 by radoran