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Game 24: Canucks at Flyers; 11/25/19 @ 7


Howie58

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33 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

 

Your last statement certainly seems extreme to me.  

 

I absolutely HATED the game of hockey 10 years ago. 

The things teams like the Penguins and the Blackhawks would get away with to win those cups was disgusting to me and I absolutely hated it.  The idea of "hey, we're getting out played and we're down by a goal... let's hold their sticks or pretend to get hit in the face and get a double minor so we can get back in this thing!" is just fine as a tactic if you want to be an A-hole, but for the life of me, I can't figure out how the refs were falling for it.  My only guess is that the league had them so cued in to "interference" that they were predisposed to see a guy being unable to play the puck because his stick was being held as a "hook" in the other direction.

 

I miss the "give a crap" "find that extra gear" quality that Richards and Briere had going for them.  I don't miss throwing a bunch of money at Marty Biron or Jeff Hackett and thinking "What could go wrong?!"

 

But hey... Richards and Carter got laid a lot, so that had to end. Or something like that.  Honestly I forget. 

 

 Ultimately, out of those deals we will have gotten Coots, Frost, Farabee, Pitlick and 8 years of crap hockey 3/5 of which is a pretty good return.

 

The scoring went down in the early 90's essentially when the Devils won the cup with "The Trap" which was a load of horse crap because they essentially just got away with all kinds of interference, hooking and clutching and grabbing. So then everyone tried to do it.  Hockey decided to suck as a result. 

 

Around the same time, the league okay's enormous light weight goalie equipment.  Light weight I'm okay with and allowing the goalies to be more athletic is great.  But the size of the chest protector essentially taken away portions of the net.

 

They counterbalanced this is the carbon fiber sticks which allow for insanely hard and accurate shots, so for my money, it's a wash.

 

The clutch and grab (ahem) I mean "Trap" defenses have given way as well... however, what remains is what those teams like the redwings and devils purported to be doing back then and essentially playing positionally savvy defense that limits the magnificence of your star players to rise above the fray.

 

But as far as my middle aged eyes can see it now, the game seems to be on track from my POV.  The game is cleaner, more honest than it was then.  

 

We may see more of what you miss if the Flyers make it out of the first round ever again.  I think the playoffs are still that place where greatness can arise.

 

 

 

 

Im not disagreeing with any of your analysis. It was insightful. But I'll cut to the chase. Whatever the cause, todays game is less physical, less emotional, and has less scoring. If you take out the rough stuff to make it a skill game, i should be thrilled by high scoring events and dazzling displays of goal scoring. 

 

But Im not!

 

The NFL has put all kinds of rules in place to protect players, especially the QB. In return fans have an expectation of more passing, and more dynamic big play scoring. That has happened everywhere......except Philadelphia 

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17 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

I don't know, you seem very good at this disagreeing stuff.

I try really hard to see things from others points of view, but i normally cant get my head that far up my ass

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10 minutes ago, CoachX said:

I try really hard to see things from others points of view, but i normally cant get my head that far up my ass

 

Lol, well I think I speak for everyone when I say it's terrible to see you back posting again.

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3 hours ago, King Knut said:

 

 

Your last statement certainly seems extreme to me.  

 

I absolutely HATED the game of hockey 10 years ago. 

The things teams like the Penguins and the Blackhawks would get away with to win those cups was disgusting to me and I absolutely hated it.  The idea of "hey, we're getting out played and we're down by a goal... let's hold their sticks or pretend to get hit in the face and get a double minor so we can get back in this thing!" is just fine as a tactic if you want to be an A-hole, but for the life of me, I can't figure out how the refs were falling for it.  My only guess is that the league had them so cued in to "interference" that they were predisposed to see a guy being unable to play the puck because his stick was being held as a "hook" in the other direction.

 

I miss the "give a crap" "find that extra gear" quality that Richards and Briere had going for them.  I don't miss throwing a bunch of money at Marty Biron or Jeff Hackett and thinking "What could go wrong?!"

 

But hey... Richards and Carter got laid a lot, so that had to end. Or something like that.  Honestly I forget. 

 

 Ultimately, out of those deals we will have gotten Coots, Frost, Farabee, Pitlick and 8 years of crap hockey 3/5 of which is a pretty good return.

 

The scoring went down in the early 90's essentially when the Devils won the cup with "The Trap" which was a load of horse crap because they essentially just got away with all kinds of interference, hooking and clutching and grabbing. So then everyone tried to do it.  Hockey decided to suck as a result. 

 

Around the same time, the league okay's enormous light weight goalie equipment.  Light weight I'm okay with and allowing the goalies to be more athletic is great.  But the size of the chest protector essentially taken away portions of the net.

 

They counterbalanced this is the carbon fiber sticks which allow for insanely hard and accurate shots, so for my money, it's a wash.

 

The clutch and grab (ahem) I mean "Trap" defenses have given way as well... however, what remains is what those teams like the redwings and devils purported to be doing back then and essentially playing positionally savvy defense that limits the magnificence of your star players to rise above the fray.

 

But as far as my middle aged eyes can see it now, the game seems to be on track from my POV.  The game is cleaner, more honest than it was then.  

 

We may see more of what you miss if the Flyers make it out of the first round ever again.  I think the playoffs are still that place where greatness can arise.

 

 

 

 


Well said. Can’t say I really disagree with anything. 
 

Kick back, grab a beer, because this is gonna be a long one. We’re goin’ down one of uncle B’s rabbit holes. 

 

The biggest thing “missing” in my opinion is that there are no longer events that cause emotions to rise and elevate my own emotional investment in the team I love. 
 

Fights are gone, except for the odd token bout. Normal hitting is very gentlemanly. Game-changing hits are non-existent. Chirping and chippiness are gone because there’s nothing to chirp or be chippy about. 
 

It’s basically down to goals. 
 

I don’t want to go back to that because we now know how freaking damaging it can be to players. I’ll never forget Lindros curled in the fetal position courtesy of a Stevens hit, or Primeau getting a cheap shot elbow to the head that was the beginning of the end for him. It is completely at odds with how we see things today. 
 

At the same time, I hated the Penguins because of Malakhov.  I hated the Devils because of Stevens. I hated the Rangers because of Avery. And all of the smaller cheap shots those guys would take during the last of the true rivalries. 
 

And our players truly hated them too. So when we struck back with a cheap shot of our own, or delivered a clean bone-crunching hit that got every freaking Flyer fan on their feet, **** that was fun. Then they would fight back and ratchet up the intensity. Start a fight in a scrum. Both teams would chirp endlessly. Little shots after the whistle. Snow the goalie’s face on a whistle and get everyone’s back up. We would ratchet it up one more. I was on the edge of my seat in anticipation of what would happen next.
 

That’s what I don’t feel from hockey anymore. 

 

Those regular season games with true rivals were intense. Even as recently as 10 years ago, before all of these real significant changes to contact started happening. 
 

There was a reason to hate them. 
 

Now, do you truly hate the Devils? Rangers? Why? Because they sometimes score more goals than we do? 


There’s still some of that left with the Penguins and Bruins. But once Crosby, Malkin, and Marchand are gone, what’s left to hate?

 

 

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47 minutes ago, brelic said:


Well said. Can’t say I really disagree with anything. 
 

Kick back, grab a beer, because this is gonna be a long one. We’re goin’ down one of uncle B’s rabbit holes. 

 

The biggest thing “missing” in my opinion is that there are no longer events that cause emotions to rise and elevate my own emotional investment in the team I love. 
 

Fights are gone, except for the odd token bout. Normal hitting is very gentlemanly. Game-changing hits are non-existent. Chirping and chippiness are gone because there’s nothing to chirp or be chippy about. 
 

It’s basically down to goals. 
 

I don’t want to go back to that because we now know how freaking damaging it can be to players. I’ll never forget Lindros curled in the fetal position courtesy of a Stevens hit, or Primeau getting a cheap shot elbow to the head that was the beginning of the end for him. It is completely at odds with how we see things today. 
 

At the same time, I hated the Penguins because of Malakhov.  I hated the Devils because of Stevens. I hated the Rangers because of Avery. And all of the smaller cheap shots those guys would take during the last of the true rivalries. 
 

And our players truly hated them too. So when we struck back with a cheap shot of our own, or delivered a clean bone-crunching hit that got every freaking Flyer fan on their feet, **** that was fun. Then they would fight back and ratchet up the intensity. Start a fight in a scrum. Both teams would chirp endlessly. Little shots after the whistle. Snow the goalie’s face on a whistle and get everyone’s back up. We would ratchet it up one more. I was on the edge of my seat in anticipation of what would happen next.
 

That’s what I don’t feel from hockey anymore. 

 

Those regular season games with true rivals were intense. Even as recently as 10 years ago, before all of these real significant changes to contact started happening. 
 

There was a reason to hate them. 
 

Now, do you truly hate the Devils? Rangers? Why? Because they sometimes score more goals than we do? 


There’s still some of that left with the Penguins and Bruins. But once Crosby, Malkin, and Marchand are gone, what’s left to hate?

 

 

 

Well said..... thank you....

 

you are right... both times and the game have changed....

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1 hour ago, brelic said:

Now, do you truly hate the Devils? Rangers? Why? Because they sometimes score more goals than we do? 

 

This is what it comes down to:   almost 50 years of cheering for my team and I'm completely indifferent.   Devils, Rangers, Penguins...just another game in a way too long season of 82 lifeless games so we maybe can play 4-6 games that supposedly have meaning, but only the bounce produced by the paddles until we flatline and wait for what is truly important:  the draft.

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2 hours ago, brelic said:

I don’t want to go back to that because we now know how freaking damaging it can be to players. I’ll never forget Lindros curled in the fetal position courtesy of a Stevens hit, or Primeau getting a cheap shot elbow to the head that was the beginning of the end for him. It is completely at odds with how we see things today. 

 

This is the thing though, isn't it? We enjoyed the game back then for the same reason some will enjoy boxing or MMA. We like to watch violence. It's emotional and visceral. This is especially true I think of Flyers fans, where the team mythology is so steeped in being bullies who win by virtue of brute force and by imposing physical will.

 

Of course, this isn't truly a combat sport. These aren't trained fighters really -- or at least the vast majority are not. They're elite level athletes not because of their ability to knock people out, but because of their skill on the ice playing a structured game that really is all about making more goals than the other team. 

 

More importantly, social acceptance of people getting their brains bashed in is not nearly what it used to be. At the same time, many of us are still drawn to violence like moths to a flame. As hockey fans, we've grown up watching it. It's part of the sport's DNA, and it's a hard thing to let go. That's really despite the fact the game awards exactly zero wins for knocking anyone out on the ice. 

 

It's a toss between the kind of twisted but human entertainment value of seeing crushing hits and fights and the interest factor in watching extremely high level athletes working together to win hockey games.

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9 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

This is the thing though, isn't it? We enjoyed the game back then for the same reason some will enjoy boxing or MMA. We like to watch violence. It's emotional and visceral. This is especially true I think of Flyers fans, where the team mythology is so steeped in being bullies who win by virtue of brute force and by imposing physical will.

 

Of course, this isn't truly a combat sport. These aren't trained fighters really -- or at least the vast majority are not. They're elite level athletes not because of their ability to knock people out, but because of their skill on the ice playing a structured game that really is all about making more goals than the other team. 

 

More importantly, social acceptance of people getting their brains bashed in is not nearly what it used to be. At the same time, many of us are still drawn to violence like moths to a flame. As hockey fans, we've grown up watching it. It's part of the sport's DNA, and it's a hard thing to let go. That's really despite the fact the game awards exactly zero wins for knocking anyone out on the ice. 

 

It's a toss between the entertainment value of seeing crushing hits and fights and the interest factor in watching extremely high level athletes working together to win hockey games.

 

I think there's a valid point to that.  But it used to be the physical brought about offense because the fans weren't the only ones feeding on emotion.

 

Ultimately you and others are right and times have changed and there is no going back.

That doesn't mean it's as boring to me as the 700 Club in Portuguese.

 

I like skill and all that.  Really I do.  But when you have a watered down league, the skill tends to balance itself out, on average.  And, in effect, cancels itself out.   Because the skill is apparently on defense, as well.   

 

So, we have scoring that is down (I'm not actually advocating for daily 7-5 games, either), emotion is down, attention span is way down, etc.   We end up with soccer on skates.  Good times.

 

No sense complaining.  It will change nothing.  It's just something I really enjoyed I only pay passing attention to now and easily find other things to do.

 

And largely to accommodate people who didn't actually like the sport to begin with.  The same people would start watching football and advocate for taking both offensive and defensive lines out and just keeping "the skilled players" and claim the people who understand the existing nuance and depth "don't appreciate football."

 

So, just passers, runners, and wide receivers on offense and D-backs on defense and solve 70% of the games with a field goal competition and all the "casual fans" will casually watch and what a wonderful world it will be.

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2 hours ago, brelic said:

I don’t want to go back to that because we now know how freaking damaging it can be to players. I’ll never forget Lindros curled in the fetal position courtesy of a Stevens hit, or Primeau getting a cheap shot elbow to the head that was the beginning of the end for him. It is completely at odds with how we see things today

It doesnt have to be "all or nothing". You can still police the game of head shots, cheap shots and all those penalties that would impede movement. But allow open hits that are legal, remove the instigator amd make Evander Kane, Wayne Simmonds, Tom Wilson players more of a commodity. 

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1 minute ago, CoachX said:

It doesnt have to be "all or nothing". You can still police the game of head shots, cheap shots and all those penalties that would impede movement. But allow open hits that are legal, remove the instigator amd make Evander Kane, Wayne Simmonds, Tom Wilson players more of a commodity. 


For sure. At least temporarily. But look at the young players coming up. They didn’t grow up on what we did. They grew up in a different time, different social context, different idols. I wouldn’t be surprised to see fighting eventually banned under heavy suspension. Which is fine, because it’s becoming nonsensical to see grown men fight playing a sport (at least one that isn’t a fighting sport).

 

But, yeah, the kids are learning a different game at a very young age. 

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10 hours ago, ruxpin said:

like skill and all that.  Really I do.  But when you have a watered down league, the skill tends to balance itself out, on average.  And, in effect, cancels itself out.   Because the skill is apparently on defense, as well.   


For sure. A very obvious part of the problem for me is the sheer number of NHL teams. Cut the league by half, and suddenly every team would have enough elite players to beat most olympic teams. With 30+ teams, that’s just not ever going to happen to the sport of hockey without a huge worldwide bump in the playerbase.

 

That’s just boosting the skill factor though.  The hitting and fighting bit is another thing entirely. Fighting in particular is just so out of place when looking at the sport in a broader context, it’s very hard to imagine that part of the game surviving another 10 years at the NHL level. 
 

The NHL wants to be part of the sporting mythos. Soccer, baseball, football, basketball, friggin cricket. None of those hugely popular sports have a fighting element embedded in them. 
 

i should note that I too very much miss watching the hits and fights. I’m not taking myself out if this. I like the violence as much as the next guy.

 

At the same time, I do recognize that: a) today’s society doesn’t tolerate brute force the way we used to; b) getting one’s head bashed in a few dozen times a year is a quick way to end your life in very bad shape. 
 

Put another way, I honestly hope no one who frequents this board ever suffers a concussion. I certainly don’t want anyone here to suffer multiple concussions over a fairly short career period mostly in their 20s. Yet, i’m totally fine when i see a huge hit on the ice or a fight. Worse than that even, I enjoy when i see it happen (as rarely as it has become). 
 

Again, I do think there’s a difference here between the entertainment value of hockey as an event that involves considerable physical pain, and the athletic value of a sport that is based on teams of players working together to out score their opposition. 

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8 minutes ago, elmatus said:


For sure. A very obvious part of the problem for me is the sheer number of NHL teams. Cut the league by half, and suddenly every team would have enough elite players to beat most olympic teams. With 30+ teams, that’s just not ever going to happen to the sport of hockey without a huge worldwide bump in the playerbase.

 

That’s just boosting the skill factor though.  The hitting and fighting bit is another thing entirely. Fighting in particular is just so out of place when looking at the sport in a broader context, it’s very hard to imagine that part of the game surviving another 10 years at the NHL level. 
 

The NHL wants to be part of the sporting mythos. Soccer, baseball, football, basketball, friggin cricket. None of those hugely popular sports have a fighting element embedded in them. 
 

i should note that I too very much miss watching the hits and fights. I’m not taking myself out if this. I like the violence as much as the next guy.

 

At the same time, I do recognize that: a) today’s society doesn’t tolerate brute force the way we used to; b) getting one’s head bashed in a few dozen times a year is a quick way to end your life in very bad shape. 
 

Put another way, I honestly hope no one who frequents this board ever suffers a concussion. I certainly don’t want anyone here to suffer multiple concussions over a fairly short career period mostly in their 20s. Yet, i’m totally fine when i see a huge hit on the ice or a fight. Worse than that even, I enjoy when i see it happen (as rarely as it has become). 
 

Again, I do think there’s a difference here between the entertainment value of hockey as an event that involves considerable physical pain, and the athletic value of a sport that is based on teams of players working together to out score their opposition. 

 

The perfectly-written post.   Well said.

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12 hours ago, brelic said:


For sure. At least temporarily. But look at the young players coming up. They didn’t grow up on what we did. They grew up in a different time, different social context, different idols. I wouldn’t be surprised to see fighting eventually banned under heavy suspension. Which is fine, because it’s becoming nonsensical to see grown men fight playing a sport (at least one that isn’t a fighting sport).

 

But, yeah, the kids are learning a different game at a very young age. 

Interesting...seems to me fighting is still prevalent at the lower levels. So I dont buy this argument. 

 

The NHL can remove the rough stuff and fighting, then they can rename the league MLS on skates

 

I wish them luck in their endeavor to be an irrelevant sport

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19 hours ago, radoran said:

Talking about the evolution of the game/league let's recall that there isn't a "loser point" in the playoffs. And a team that can't get reliable goal scoring isn't likely to have the success that being "eighth in the Conference" affords.

 

The Flyers are seventh among current playoff teams in goals for and have an even differential - the eighth place in playoff position goal scoring Islanders (four less goals in two fewer games) are +14. The ninth place overall Bolts have scored eight more goals in three fewer games and are +12. Only Florida has a worse goal differential among current playoff teams (-1) and they've scored 16 more goals.

 

Back in the beforetime, I was of the opinion that a "bad" season for the Flyers should be a bubble playoff team. After the past seven years, simply accomplishing that isn't getting me excited. I'm just tired of watching this "core" as they bumble along inconsistently.

 

Even if we go with the "make the playoffs and anything can happen" theory (which I don't put much stock in, as that line of thinking is  primary reason casinos are still in business), the Blues last year are maybe the best example of a "surprise" team winning the Cup since the lockout, and they were a Conference Finalist two years before.

 

"The best team" doesn't always win, but it's ridiculously rare that the team that sneaks into the playoffs wins the Cup.

 

In previous years, the Flyers were a bubble team that was hanging on for dear life in most games... AND that couldn't score and were losing the goal differential.

 

There's more to this than theMost of these new fangled advanced analytics are just a way of quantifying the "eye test" and right now both of those are saying this Flyers team is much better than any of the previous 6 seasons.  Probably 9 if I'm being generous.

 

Yes, they are a bubble team right now, but

-they've played very well or beaten the teams ahead of them

-they are tied or better than two of the team "ahead of them"

-both of the above have a worse differential than the Flyers

-last year the difference between 3rd in the division and not in the playoffs was 9 wins.

 

If they were having trouble scoring and losing games, I'd be more more concerned.

If they were having trouble scoring and not dominating the majority of games, I'd be more concerned.

If they were having trouble scoring and didn't have a bevy of scoring threats under-achieving and thus had no hope of getting better in that department, I'd be concerned.

If they were having trouble scoring and were still relying on Neuvirth, Manning and MacDonald to stop goals, I'd be concerned.

If Hakstol's ridiculous system and his reliance on Lehtera & Weise were still at play, I'd be more concerned.

 

as it is i'm feeling okay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, CoachX said:

Interesting...seems to me fighting is still prevalent at the lower levels. So I dont buy this argument. 

 

The NHL can remove the rough stuff and fighting, then they can rename the league MLS on skates

 

I wish them luck in their endeavor to be an irrelevant sport

 

I really think they will. It's the only major sport that allows fighting. It's at odds with current social norms, and with the announcement that the PA is getting involved in monitoring and rooting out player abuse by coaches, it's the way things are going. 

 

There's barely any hitting in today's NHL, and very few organic fights. It's quickly becoming an anachronism. 

 

 

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@brelic

 

I was never a fan of the staged fights after a face-off.

 

There was an intensity that you've mentioned that doesn't seem to be in the game anymore until the playoffs.

Backinaday there were home & homes where two teams played back to backs in each team's arena. /game 2 of that scheduling technique used to have a fair amount of chippiness due to proximity.

There  was a time when I was okay with fights if they arose organically.  Guys getting their sticks and elbows up in the corners would lead to someone "having enough".  There was less padding, worse helmets, no visors...people would get opened up more easily and playing recklessly would and should have consequences.

Now guys want to fight after clean hits .

There is a "we're 'allowed' to do this so we should do this" vibe to most fights today that I can't get with. 

It is a contact sport, guys skating fast in an enclosed area with sticks, it has violence built into to it. The fighting used to be a way to reset building tension and get back to playing hockey, now it's a distraction from everything. 

 

 

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