Game 28: Leafs at Flyers; 12/3/19 @ 7 PM

[King Knut]

11 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

When you have a Chris Chelios - no retiring, wilting, wallflower he - talking about Babcock and Franzen like he has recently, I can see where there are lines that need to be established.

 

This also simply not 20 years ago. The players are different. The atmosphere they developed in is different. The compensation is different.

 

The latter may have a pretty significant role as multi-millionaires are not as likely to do something that could affect their ability to make millions of dollars... And I don't think ending guaranteed contracts "fixes" that situation as much as exacerbates it...

 

I think your point is good, but I'd come at it from a different angle.  If you're a coach or a GM or an owner and you've invested 7 million bucks in a guy... do you want that guy earning it on an operating table and in PT and rehab?  

 

Still, I think it has way more to do with position based coaching systems and it being way more important to get your butt where it belongs to shut down a passing lane, than it is to deliver a bruising hit.  

[King Knut]

1 minute ago, radoran said:

 

So we're still bashing on JVR?

 

 

 

You're joking, but it's a good point about big players.  Often time they look like they're not working hard, but they're actually moving quickly.  I don't necessarily mean JVR as no one would accuse him of being a speedster... but over the course of the Flyers history, plenty of "ugly skating" bigger men have been pretty good at getting around despite the eye test suggesting they look slow. 

 

Inertia is a thing.

[radoran]

3 minutes ago, King Knut said:

I think your point is good, but I'd come at it from a different angle.  If you're a coach or a GM or an owner and you've invested 7 million bucks in a guy... do you want that guy earning it on an operating table and in PT and rehab?  

 

Well, of course not. And that absolutely plays a role.

 

4 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Still, I think it has way more to do with position based coaching systems and it being way more important to get your butt where it belongs to shut down a passing lane, than it is to deliver a bruising hit.  

 

Which is a clear change in how the game is played. Better or worse is in the eye of the beholder. To take another example, today's NBA isn't one in which the Laimbeer/Mahorn Detroit Pistons would be able to impose their will on the game like they did in the past. You simply can't play that way any more.

 

Perhaps the apotheosis of the situation was the Legion of Doom, who had the size and the skill to play big, fast, and hard.

 

Of course, that left Lindros in the situation you describe above... That Scott Stevens hit is just unimaginable today - and with IMO good reason.

[Podein25]

7 minutes ago, radoran said:

Perhaps the apotheosis of the situation

 

Ummm, Reported?

[OccamsRazor]

28 minutes ago, radoran said:

That said, I'm still in wait and see mode

 

I am too until the playoffs starts.

 

Don't trust them.

 

It's earned not given.

[King Knut]

5 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Well, of course not. And that absolutely plays a role.

 

 

Which is a clear change in how the game is played. Better or worse is in the eye of the beholder. To take another example, today's NBA isn't one in which the Laimbeer/Mahorn Detroit Pistons would be able to impose their will on the game like they did in the past. You simply can't play that way any more.

 

Perhaps the apotheosis of the situation was the Legion of Doom, who had the size and the skill to play big, fast, and hard.

 

Of course, that left Lindros in the situation you describe above... That Scott Stevens hit is just unimaginable today - and with IMO good reason.

 

Well the Stevens hit was three different kinds of illegal back then too, they just chose not to call it for (insert inexplicable reasons here).

 

Hits like the Kasparitus one were thought of as clean (even though it was a clear case of head hunting) even though he took more than the required number of strides for charging and lead with his shoulder directly into Lindros' face.  He was laughing and congratulated by his team mates afterwards while Lindros was still unable to get off his knees minutes later.  That should give us all a pretty good indication of how the league viewed Lindros.  From the moment he joined the league It was sort of a challenge to see if you could get hurt him.  The league didn't discourage it and I'm sure tons of coaches and GMs around the league encouraged it and the fans in other towns friggin loved it.  

I'm sorry, but I absolutely do not pine for those days.  

It's one thing for someone like Randy Jones or Brandon Manning to take out a Bergeron or a McDavid or even the concussion Patrick got as a rookie (which is borderline as far as I'm concerned) but targeting guys just because they're good?  That's a bit of bull that I have no time for and I hope it's gone... though Patrick sure did take a lot of abuse his first two years.  

 

IMHO, the Legion of Doom and Forseberg are more or less what led us to the place we are now.  They were too big and too fast and too skilled and the only way teams could compete at all was to either grab on and interfere with them or utterly brutalize them in any way they could.

 

The Clutch and grab of the mid-90's on was a direct result of Lindros entering the league IMHO.  And part of the problem there as far as I'm concerned was two fold: 

 

A) The Flyers eschewed the traditional role of protecting him.  They let him fight his own fights.  Supposed old time hockey.  Brilliant idea for a guy you literally just invested a new building in.

 

B) The league (for whatever reason) did not see fit to penalize what was done to Lindros and the Flyers in general.  Part of it is that Gretzky or Lemieux would have been mroe cagey and avoided hits whereas Lindros could give a crap if you hit him because normal hits didn't affect or hurt him.  The result however was that defenders started doing things to Lindros that they would have been suspended for doing to Lemieux or Gretzky, but were almost encouraged to do to Lindros.

 

There were a lot of flaws.  

 

 

 

 

[Lindbergh31]

19 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

I don't miss the trap, but I do miss the hitting.  Don Cherry was right when he said that the league was going to legislate hitting out of the game. I thought he was nuts and just being a neanderthal about the league clamping down on fighting, but he was right: hitting is all but gone from the league now.  It's a completely different game than it was just 20 years ago.

 

The league will tell you the players are faster and more exciting, but they're basically "soccer" players now. It's a no-touch game. Anyone can skate fast if there are no repercussions to doing so. Nobody checking you and nobody hitting you. I'm surprised the league hasn't passed a rule that the defencemen must spread apart and allow forwards a clean breakaway to the net lol.   

 

When I remember those playoff games from the early 2000's, I remember a tough, physical game where you still had the skill, but you also had the big hits and the intensity. I just don't see that any more. The players today are soft. 

Well said, the game of the 80's which had high scoring, hits, fights and tough hockey is long gone. The game and players are softer, more sensitive and the hockey isn't as exciting. Hell remember goalies with a GAA of 3.00 was the Vezina winner. If the league wants to keep the hitting in but still keep it safe for players then make changes to penalties. Any head shots(intentional or not) it's an automatic 5 minutes and game misconduct, players will learn to keep their elbows down.  I miss the old playoff series of the 80's and even the Leafs/Flyers series of the early 2000's.  

[King Knut]

8 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I am too until the playoffs starts.

 

Don't trust them.

 

It's earned not given.

 

I think we all are, but that's not going to prevent me from enjoying them playing well now.

I'm not going to ignore good hockey and what appears to be a 6 year plan finally coming to fruition out of spite of the fact that it actually took 6 years.

 

I'm going with a, "Hooray!  But don't get comfortable punks.  Keep working." 

[King Knut]

2 minutes ago, Lindbergh31 said:

Well said, the game of the 80's which had high scoring, hits, fights and tough hockey is long gone. The game and players are softer, more sensitive and the hockey isn't as exciting. Hell remember goalies with a GAA of 3.00 was the Vezina winner. If the league wants to keep the hitting in but still keep it safe for players then make changes to penalties. Any head shots(intentional or not) it's an automatic 5 minutes and game misconduct, players will learn to keep their elbows down.  I miss the old playoff series of the 80's and even the Leafs/Flyers series of the early 2000's.  

 

I'm telling you, the scoring is down and the hitting is down for the same reason.  The systems are just plain better.  

 

The fact is, players are faster, more skilled and have ridiculous magic sticks that Gretzky would have scored 9 goals a night with if he could have used one. Also, as you point out... they're getting hit a lot less and no one's trying to decapitate them every night.

 

Goals are down because players are sticking to their coach's system.  They're not committing to the cherry picking or the offense.  They're committing to shutting down the opposition and trying to take advantage when they can.

 

Same is true of hitting.  It's not happening but more because the coaches would much rather see a player shutting down a passing lane and being in position for a smooth transition.  

 

 

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

 

When you have a Chris Chelios - no retiring, wilting, wallflower he - talking about Babcock and Franzen like he has recently, I can see where there are lines that need to be established.

 

 

Not for nuthin, but as far as I'm concerned, HoF or not, I still think Chelios is a P.O.S. for what he did to prop back in '89.

[radoran]

10 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Not for nuthin, but as far as I'm concerned, HoF or not, I still think Chelios is a P.O.S. for what he did to prop back in '89.

 

I don't at all disagree.

 

I'm just saying that if that sort of a player thinks that a coach is going too far, that says a lot.

[CoachX]

8 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Word for word. And he was just as invisible. How does someone 6'3" 220 lbs play invisible?

He closes his eyes and no one can see him

[CoachX]

2 hours ago, ruxpin said:

 

That's something the captain can probably get behind.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nhl/news/report-flyers-captain-claude-giroux-arrested-in-ottawa/

I thought he pinched,  not punished? It keeps in line with the game being less physical

[King Knut]

14 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I don't at all disagree.

 

I'm just saying that if that sort of a player thinks that a coach is going too far, that says a lot.

 

Oh yeah totally.  I didn't mean for that to sound like I disagreed.  I just felt bad I missed a chance to point out what a P.O.S. Chelios is.  

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, Lindbergh31 said:

I miss the old playoff series of the 80's and even the Leafs/Flyers series of the early 2000's.  

 

I just miss playoffs.

[CoachX]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I am too until the playoffs starts.

 

Don't trust them.

 

It's earned not given.

Trust.....the....process

 

Its working

[radoran]

1 minute ago, ruxpin said:

 

I just miss playoffs.

 

You knew it was coming...

 

 

[King Knut]

16 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 Is there anything more JVR-like than him scoring the last goal in a 6-1 win?

 

I mean he's only playing 12 mins a night so, that helps with the invisibility thing, but just to play Devil's advocate here:

 

JVR finished with a 68.2cf%, a +2,  4 shots (wnd to G's 5 shots) and a breakaway goal in only 18 Shifts, splitting time against the top Leafs lines.

 

Yes, the goal was in garbage time.  That's fair... but if the rest of the above is invisible, I think some of us need to be looking a little harder. 

 

 

[CoachX]

7 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

I mean he's only playing 12 mins a night so, that helps with the invisibility thing, but just to play Devil's advocate here:

 

JVR finished with a 68.2cf%, a +2,  4 shots (wnd to G's 5 shots) and a breakaway goal in only 18 Shifts, splitting time against the top Leafs lines.

 

Yes, the goal was in garbage time.  That's fair... but if the rest of the above is invisible, I think some of us need to be looking a little harder. 

 

 

He should be playing more minutes. He isnt because his play is lacking. He should be producing more. He isnt because his play is lacking. He should be scoring more.....

 

Aw , **** it, you get the point.

 

You cant polish a turd

[Podein25]

17 minutes ago, CoachX said:

He should be playing more minutes. He isnt because his play is lacking. He should be producing more. He isnt because his play is lacking. He should be scoring more.....

 

Aw , **** it, you get the point.

 

You cant polish a turd

 

I hate JVR, but his play last night was ok. He didn't do any active harm, no horrible Jake-like turnovers in the neutral zone or in his own end. And he had a good screen on the PP once. Which is about the best use for his sorry large ass. 

 

But: I could have done those things on a good day, whereas he makes north of $7M. That is the problem.

[OccamsRazor]

2 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

$7M

 

You can fetch a lot of sheep up yonder with that type of bread right?

 

You'd OD on wool...

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

I mean he's only playing 12 mins a night so, that helps with the invisibility thing, but just to play Devil's advocate here:

 

JVR finished with a 68.2cf%, a +2,  4 shots (wnd to G's 5 shots) and a breakaway goal in only 18 Shifts, splitting time against the top Leafs lines.

 

Yes, the goal was in garbage time.  That's fair... but if the rest of the above is invisible, I think some of us need to be looking a little harder. 

 

 

 

You can throw plus minus and celsius vs fahrenheit stats all you want   ....I didn't really notice him all night, as usual.

 

 He's making $7 million a year and has earned himself a spot on the 3rd and 4th lines most nights. And by earned I mean he's only playing cause he makes $7 million a year. The guy is a lazy stiff. It's sad cause he has the skill and size to be a real difference maker. 

 

edit: just saw Pods basically covered this .

Edited December 4, 2019 by flyercanuck

[Podein25]

25 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

edit: just saw Pods basically covered this .

 

I always got yer back man.

[Podein25]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

You can fetch a lot of sheep up yonder with that type of bread right?

 

 

Only if it was in $USD. If it was in $CDN, that's like 50 bucks or something.

[mojo1917]

I want to say this about last night's game.

After that freak goal bounced in off Hart's ass recent Flyers teams would have most likely folded.  

This group didn't allow a Leaf's shot on goal for the next 8 minutes or something...it wasn't until TM pulled their goalie for the extra attacker.

Immediately Couturier's line buried who ever they were out against, then Giroux scored on that fine ass pass from Koneckny and they didn't let up. That is how winning teams play and  it felt so nice to watch our guys be the team dictating the play and not reacting. 

I haven't seen a Flyers team respond like that since the days of Richards and Carter.

 

So nice having more than 4 good players . 

Edited December 4, 2019 by mojo1917