Game 28: Leafs at Flyers; 12/3/19 @ 7 PM

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

He should be playing more minutes. He isnt because his play is lacking. He should be producing more. He isnt because his play is lacking. He should be scoring more.....

 

Aw , **** it, you get the point.

 

You cant polish a turd

 

No, but you can stink up a chestnut with poop.

 

He's playing very well.  As was Hayes and as was Jake before they started scoring recently.  

His play isn't lacking.  

His shots are lacking. 

 

He's got 3 points in 4 games despite the reduced play time.  

He's a career -40 player who is currently +4 (6th on the team)

 

Typically about 1/4 of his points come off the PP. 

Right now 1/12 of his points are coming on the PP.

His shooting % is also about half what it normally is.  

 

This to me suggests that he's just not getting the shots from the places and situations that he's used to.  Which says to me that he's adjusting his game to AV's system.  This isn't what you pay a guy $7million for, but I am kinda inclined to think he's going to start scoring more regularly again.  

 

At the end of the day, what I'm certain of is that right now, the PP's lack of scoring is what's keeping this team from seeming really scary and I can't honestly pin that on JVR.  The whole play of both units isn't really looking good yet.  

[CoachX]

13 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

No, but you can stink up a chestnut with poop.

 

He's playing very well.  As was Hayes and as was Jake before they started scoring recently.  

His play isn't lacking.  

His shots are lacking. 

 

He's got 3 points in 4 games despite the reduced play time.  

He's a career -40 player who is currently +4 (6th on the team)

 

Typically about 1/4 of his points come off the PP. 

Right now 1/12 of his points are coming on the PP.

His shooting % is also about half what it normally is.  

 

This to me suggests that he's just not getting the shots from the places and situations that he's used to.  Which says to me that he's adjusting his game to AV's system.  This isn't what you pay a guy $7million for, but I am kinda inclined to think he's going to start scoring more regularly again.  

 

At the end of the day, what I'm certain of is that right now, the PP's lack of scoring is what's keeping this team from seeming really scary and I can't honestly pin that on JVR.  The whole play of both units isn't really looking good yet.  

If he's not lacking, why did the coach demote him?

 

And, with your points to defend his game, do you think hes delivering a performance worthy of 7m per year?

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

 

You can throw plus minus and celsius vs fahrenheit stats all you want   ....I didn't really notice him all night, as usual.

 

Well like I said, part of that is because he literally was out there less of the game than other guys, but (and please know I'm not trying to be snarky when I say this) if you didn't notice the guy taking the 2nd most shots, driving play as much as he did and keeping the puck out of his own zone as much as he did, maybe at least some small part of that is on you and what you're watching for, not JVR. 

 

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

 He's making $7 million a year and has earned himself a spot on the 3rd and 4th lines most nights. 

 

He's played on every line this year as just about everyone has.  Strange part is that he's started producing from almost the moment he had his minutes cut.

 

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

He's only playing cause he makes $7 million a year. The guy is a lazy stiff. It's sad cause he has the skill and size to be a real difference maker. 

 

This is simply not true.  If you look at the kinds of things coaches are looking for, he's playing every night because he's doing those things well.  If Fletcher decides to trade him or something to recoup some cap space, THAT'll be because he makes $7million.  

 

Do you really think any coach in his right mind would put a guy who is a "lazy stiff" on the 4th line?

 

He benched Ghost for Hagg!  Do you think AV cares about a guy's salary?  If he thought it would get JVR going, I'm sure he'd bench him any night he wanted.  The fact of the matter is, the Flyers are better with JVR out there (somewhere) than they are with their current alternatives.  

 

He goes in fits and starts, so let's see how this current start pans out and if he gets any more consistent after it.  

When the PP gets up to 23% or so, then we'll see how we feel about JVR's production.  In the meantime, it's just a little silly to pretend that he's a lazy stiff and he's playing poorly just because he's doing the 90% of the game the coaches harp on all the time better than the 10% we'd like to see.  

 

I guarantee you, when it comes to winning games, you'd much rather him be good at the stuff he's doing well right now than the 10% he's not.

 

 

 

 

[Podein25]

12 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

No, but you can stink up a chestnut with poop.

 

He's playing very well.  As was Hayes and as was Jake before they started scoring recently.  

His play isn't lacking.  

His shots are lacking. 

 

He's got 3 points in 4 games despite the reduced play time.  

He's a career -40 player who is currently +4 (6th on the team)

 

Typically about 1/4 of his points come off the PP. 

Right now 1/12 of his points are coming on the PP.

His shooting % is also about half what it normally is.  

 

This to me suggests that he's just not getting the shots from the places and situations that he's used to.  Which says to me that he's adjusting his game to AV's system.  This isn't what you pay a guy $7million for, but I am kinda inclined to think he's going to start scoring more regularly again.  

 

At the end of the day, what I'm certain of is that right now, the PP's lack of scoring is what's keeping this team from seeming really scary and I can't honestly pin that on JVR.  The whole play of both units isn't really looking good yet.  

 

The reason JVR is on the PP is to get him going offensively. Like, they are literally hoping the puck hits him in the ass or the mouth and goes in.

 

Let's not confuse that with anything else. 

[King Knut]

4 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

The reason JVR is on the PP is to get him going offensively. Like, they are literally hoping the puck hits him in the ass or the mouth and goes in.

 

Let's not confuse that with anything else. 

 

He's been on the PP since he entered the league, regardless of the team.  He has 88 Career PP points, which clearly isn't amazing, but it definitely makes him a PP guy.  

[Podein25]

4 minutes ago, King Knut said:

He's been on the PP since he entered the league, regardless of the team.  He has 88 Career PP points, which clearly isn't amazing, but it definitely makes him a PP guy

 

All he is is big. With a big mole on his face. I just wanna punch him.

 

Still, you're putting up a spirited, if not terribly convincing, argument for his existence. So good on you.

 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Podein25

[King Knut]

3 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

All he is is big. With a big mole on his face. I just wanna punch him.

 

Still, you're putting up a spirited, if not terribly convincing, argument for his existence. So good on you.

 

 

That mole just won't go away will it?  I'd hoped those years in Toronto might have frozen it off.

[flyercanuck]

22 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Well like I said, part of that is because he literally was out there less of the game than other guys, but (and please know I'm not trying to be snarky when I say this) if you didn't notice the guy taking the 2nd most shots, driving play as much as he did and keeping the puck out of his own zone as much as he did, maybe at least some small part of that is on you and what you're watching for, not JVR. 

 

 

He's played on every line this year as just about everyone has.  Strange part is that he's started producing from almost the moment he had his minutes cut.

 

 

This is simply not true.  If you look at the kinds of things coaches are looking for, he's playing every night because he's doing those things well.  If Fletcher decides to trade him or something to recoup some cap space, THAT'll be because he makes $7million.  

 

Do you really think any coach in his right mind would put a guy who is a "lazy stiff" on the 4th line?

 

He benched Ghost for Hagg!  Do you think AV cares about a guy's salary?  If he thought it would get JVR going, I'm sure he'd bench him any night he wanted.  The fact of the matter is, the Flyers are better with JVR out there (somewhere) than they are with their current alternatives.  

 

He goes in fits and starts, so let's see how this current start pans out and if he gets any more consistent after it.  

When the PP gets up to 23% or so, then we'll see how we feel about JVR's production.  In the meantime, it's just a little silly to pretend that he's a lazy stiff and he's playing poorly just because he's doing the 90% of the game the coaches harp on all the time better than the 10% we'd like to see.  

 

I guarantee you, when it comes to winning games, you'd much rather him be good at the stuff he's doing well right now than the 10% he's not.

 

 

 

 

 

 Sorry, but I started watching JVR from the time Philly drafted him when he played for UNH to when he made the Flyers to when he played for the Leafs to when he signed back in Philly...and pretty much the ONLY time I've ever been impressed with him was that Boston series in 2010/11? I believe where he looking like a force to be reckoned with. 

 

 Yes he's had some decent games since then...but after seeing what he could do...and what he actually chooses to do...I've come to the conclusion that he's a lazy stiff. I think most Flyer/Leaf fans would agree with that.

 

 Does he have good hands? Yes. Can he score? Yes. Does he put forth a good effort game in and game out? F*** no!

[flyercanuck]

Wasn't sure where to put this so I'll just throw it out here....so guess which defenceman is 2nd in the entire NHL in even strength points scored per 60 minutes played right after Carlsson?

 

 Cale Makar? Nope.

 Provorov? Nope.

 Josi? Weber? Burns? Nope...nope...nope.

 Ghost? Nope.

 Sanheim? Nope.

 

 Phillipe Myers (not Meyers) that's who! Pretty impressive...and those passes last night were feckin beauties.

[Podein25]

3 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

Wasn't sure where to put this so I'll just throw it out here....so guess which defenceman is 2nd in the entire NHL in even strength points scored per 60 minutes played right after Carlsson?

 

 Cale Makar? Nope.

 Provorov? Nope.

 Josi? Weber? Burns? Nope...nope...nope.

 Ghost? Nope.

 Sanheim? Nope.

 

 Phillipe Myers (not Meyers) that's who! Pretty impressive...and those passes last night were feckin beauties.

 

Dope!

[CoachX]

51 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Well like I said, part of that is because he literally was out there less of the game than other guys, but (and please know I'm not trying to be snarky when I say this) if you didn't notice the guy taking the 2nd most shots, driving play as much as he did and keeping the puck out of his own zone as much as he did, maybe at least some small part of that is on you and what you're watching for, not JVR. 

 

 

He's played on every line this year as just about everyone has.  Strange part is that he's started producing from almost the moment he had his minutes cut.

 

 

This is simply not true.  If you look at the kinds of things coaches are looking for, he's playing every night because he's doing those things well.  If Fletcher decides to trade him or something to recoup some cap space, THAT'll be because he makes $7million.  

 

Do you really think any coach in his right mind would put a guy who is a "lazy stiff" on the 4th line?

 

He benched Ghost for Hagg!  Do you think AV cares about a guy's salary?  If he thought it would get JVR going, I'm sure he'd bench him any night he wanted.  The fact of the matter is, the Flyers are better with JVR out there (somewhere) than they are with their current alternatives.  

 

He goes in fits and starts, so let's see how this current start pans out and if he gets any more consistent after it.  

When the PP gets up to 23% or so, then we'll see how we feel about JVR's production.  In the meantime, it's just a little silly to pretend that he's a lazy stiff and he's playing poorly just because he's doing the 90% of the game the coaches harp on all the time better than the 10% we'd like to see.  

 

I guarantee you, when it comes to winning games, you'd much rather him be good at the stuff he's doing well right now than the 10% he's not.

 

 

 

 

28 games, 6 goals, 6 assists and ONE, I REPEAT ONE,  power play goal

 

What a bargain at 7m. And we were all bitchin about Hayes' contract 

Edited December 4, 2019 by CoachX

[flyercanuck]

22 minutes ago, CoachX said:

28 games, 6 goals, 6 assists and ONE, I REPEAT ONE,  power play goal

 

 

 

Let me guess...empty netter in a 8-0 rout of the Cleveland Barons.

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

If he's not lacking, why did the coach demote him?

 

And, with your points to defend his game, do you think hes delivering a performance worthy of 7m per year?

 

Ok, so you’re AV a few weeks ago. You’re trying to get your 3rd line full of not scoring 7 million plus guys to start scoring (though they’re not getting scored on either, so there’s that) so you want to break them up again. 

 

You’re already short 2 centers because Laughton and Patrick are out. So you likely don’t want to move Hayes down the roster.

 

You’re not breaking up the Frosty-G-TK line are you?  No. You are not. 

You’re more likely to move Farabee off Coots’ wing than Lindblom because Coots and Lindy have done well all year. 

 

So  if you’re considering moving either Jake or JVR to the 4th line whose main job is to not get scored on while the other guys catch their breath... even though both Jake and JVR are doing a decent job of not getting scored on... are you really gonna our Voracek on the 4th line?  

 

In a way, Its actually a somewhat of a show of confidence in JVR playing “the right way” that he chose to put him on the 4th at all.  

 

And no.  Of course not.  

I do NOT think he's delivering a $7million dollar performance. That said, there's no one to replace him right now.  Offensively or defensively and if they trade him, I won’t cry a drop.  They need his cap space desperately this off season anyway. 

 

That said, every other player at their disposal on the bench and in the minors has given up way more offense than JVR, so while he may not be doing what we’d like to win more games, the evidence is such that NOT playing him could end up costing them more games.  It sounds crazy if you think he’s a lazy stiff, but Ruby, Misha, Andreoff, Stewart, Bunnyman, Twarynski, Pitlick and even Laughton, Raffl and Hayes all give up more of their own ice overall and more even strength goals than JVR.

It’s true.  I’m not joking. 

 

Right now, he’s still your best option to win games.  Or at least to keep from losing them.  

 

And right. Now he has 3 points in 4 games... from the 4th line.  

 

Lets see see where this goes and if they can manage to get the PP cranking overall. 

If he had 4 or 5 more pp goals like he probably should and 20 points or so by now, i’d be thrilled with him, $7 million or not. 

 

At the end end of the day,  not playing JVR 

Hurts this team and playing him, while being guilty of not being as productive as we hoped, is still the best option. 

 

Of if you can trade him for a guy who has similar underlying numbers and costs less, i’d Be thrilled.  Until then, I know the guy can score 30 goals.  Let’s spend our time figuring out how to get him back on that track because complaining about the rest of his game at the moment is out of touch with reality.  

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

28 games, 6 goals, 6 assists and ONE, I REPEAT ONE,  power play goal

 

What a bargain at 7m. And we were all bitchin about Hayes' contract 

 

this is essentially what i’m Saying though! If the PP was working better he might have 5 pp goals and a few assists by  now for 18-20 points overall  and no one would be complaining. 

 

Its not. So we are.  

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

Does he have good hands? Yes. Can he score? Yes. Does he put forth a good effort game in and game out? F*** no!

 

We may not see what we think of as a good effort, but the fact is, the other team isn’t getting as many shots and they’re not scoring as many goals when he’s on the ice.  That’s literally how you win hockey games.  

 

He’s a top 6 fwd on this team in that regard.  

 

That may not sit sit well with us because we expect goals for dollars (again, see my notes on the PP overall) but if you want to win hockey games, this is what you want to see.  

 

Right now if they traded him for a pick or someone with worse underlying numbers (which is most of the league) you’d be hurting the team. 

 

He’s completely revamped his approach to the even strength game and his numbers are reflecting that.  Fix the PP and we’ll really be onto something for nothing JVR and the whole damn team.  

 

Not earning $7million and being a lazy stiff P.O.S. Are two very different things.  

[CoachX]

35 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Ok, so you’re AV a few weeks ago. You’re trying to get your 3rd line full of not scoring 7 million plus guys to start scoring (though they’re not getting scored on either, so there’s that) so you want to break them up again. 

 

You’re already short 2 centers because Laughton and Patrick are out. So you likely don’t want to move Hayes down the roster.

 

You’re not breaking up the Frosty-G-TK line are you?  No. You are not. 

You’re more likely to move Farabee off Coots’ wing than Lindblom because Coots and Lindy have done well all year. 

 

So  if you’re considering moving either Jake or JVR to the 4th line whose main job is to not get scored on while the other guys catch their breath... even though both Jake and JVR are doing a decent job of not getting scored on... are you really gonna our Voracek on the 4th line?  

 

In a way, Its actually a somewhat of a show of confidence in JVR playing “the right way” that he chose to put him on the 4th at all.  

 

And no.  Of course not.  

I do NOT think he's delivering a $7million dollar performance. That said, there's no one to replace him right now.  Offensively or defensively and if they trade him, I won’t cry a drop.  They need his cap space desperately this off season anyway. 

 

That said, every other player at their disposal on the bench and in the minors has given up way more offense than JVR, so while he may not be doing what we’d like to win more games, the evidence is such that NOT playing him could end up costing them more games.  It sounds crazy if you think he’s a lazy stiff, but Ruby, Misha, Andreoff, Stewart, Bunnyman, Twarynski, Pitlick and even Laughton, Raffl and Hayes all give up more of their own ice overall and more even strength goals than JVR.

It’s true.  I’m not joking. 

 

Right now, he’s still your best option to win games.  Or at least to keep from losing them.  

 

And right. Now he has 3 points in 4 games... from the 4th line.  

 

Lets see see where this goes and if they can manage to get the PP cranking overall. 

If he had 4 or 5 more pp goals like he probably should and 20 points or so by now, i’d be thrilled with him, $7 million or not. 

 

At the end end of the day,  not playing JVR 

Hurts this team and playing him, while being guilty of not being as productive as we hoped, is still the best option. 

 

Of if you can trade him for a guy who has similar underlying numbers and costs less, i’d Be thrilled.  Until then, I know the guy can score 30 goals.  Let’s spend our time figuring out how to get him back on that track because complaining about the rest of his game at the moment is out of touch with reality.  

I will agree on the point that you dont have a better option, so you have to play him somewhere. But thats not the discussion. The discussion is centered on your observations that, while in a demoted role, he is performing well, and that he would perform better given more minutes

 

The fact still remains, if he was playing like he did in Toronto we would not be having this discussion, and other players would find themselves on the 3rd or 4th line.

 

Props to you for sticking up for the guy, but I think hes a total bust in Philly. I dont think he can metally perform as a member of this franchise. Cut ties and move him. It would be best for both him and the team

Edited December 4, 2019 by CoachX

[CoachX]

31 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

this is essentially what i’m Saying though! If the PP was working better he might have 5 pp goals and a few assists by  now for 18-20 points overall  and no one would be complaining. 

 

Its not. So we are.  

And if a frog had wings his ass wouldnt hit the ground when he hopped

 

 

[mkscrewy]

2 hours ago, CoachX said:

And if a frog had wings his ass wouldnt hit the ground when he hopped

 

 

Oh **** I love Raising Arizona

[CoachX]

25 minutes ago, mkscrewy said:

Oh **** I love Raising Arizona

I didnt realize that quote was in that movie

 

My mom said that to me whenever i had a bs argument.....i heard it alot

[OccamsRazor]

13 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

I believe where he looking like a force to be reckoned with. 

 

I keep seeing rumors of the Rags wanting to move Chris Kreider....i wonder if they would do a swap of JVR for Kreider???

[ruxpin]

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I keep seeing rumors of the Rags wanting to move Chris Kreider....i wonder if they would do a swap of JVR for Kreider???

 

JVR for Panarin makes a heck of a lot more sense to me.  

[King Knut]

3 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I keep seeing rumors of the Rags wanting to move Chris Kreider....i wonder if they would do a swap of JVR for Kreider???

 

He's an impending UFA and they will want to be moving him for picks.

They are not likely to want JVR's contract as they will probably be shooting to sign some big UFAs this summer (Hall, Hoffman maybe).

 

 

 

[King Knut]

14 hours ago, CoachX said:

And if a frog had wings his ass wouldnt hit the ground when he hopped

 

 

This would be more appropriate if the Frog had always had wings to begin with.  

 

 

[King Knut]

14 hours ago, CoachX said:

I will agree on the point that you dont have a better option, so you have to play him somewhere. But thats not the discussion. The discussion is centered on your observations that, while in a demoted role, he is performing well, and that he would perform better given more minutes

 

The fact still remains, if he was playing like he did in Toronto we would not be having this discussion, and other players would find themselves on the 3rd or 4th line.

 

Props to you for sticking up for the guy, but I think hes a total bust in Philly. I dont think he can metally perform as a member of this franchise. Cut ties and move him. It would be best for both him and the team

 

I'm not sure that's what I have been thinking. So if it's what I said, I'll apologize.

 

My thoughts are that JVR is playing well but just not scoring.  The same was true of Hayes and Voracek.  

As it is, Hayes only has two more points than JVR and 8 more goals have been scored against him at even strength than JVR... but we're talking about JVR as the odd man out here for some reason anyway.

 

At the heart of it, I'm talking about winning hockey games and you guys are talking about scoring goals and earning $7million.

 

My focus is on winning games.  It would be nice if guys were "earning" their big contracts while they win them, I would prefer to see that as opposed to not seeing it.

 

And I am extremely concerned about how Fletcher is going to sign the guys he's going to need to resign over the next three years, so losing JVR's contract would be a blessing as far as that is concerned.

 

But I look around and everyone's just bytching about how JVR isn't scoring (and you're right, he's not), but no one seems to have noticed that he's completely changed his game and what he IS doing well is doing more to help the team win than he would be if he was playing like he did last year or in Toronto.

 

When he left for Toronto he was a career +13 player.  That's right.  Homer traded a guy who was +15 with 21 goals for Luke Schenn... but somehow we all seem to think it was because he was a lazy stiff.  I've got news for us.  It doesn't matter what we "see" watching the games.  If you finish a season at +15 and with 20 goals, you are NOT a lazy stiff, you are an incredibly valuable piece.

 

Anyway, He was then a -47 for all his time and his 106 even strength goals in TO.  And he was a -10 last year under Hakstol. That's awful.  I will take a guy who scores 15 EVG and ends a year as a plus player any day over a guy who scores 40 EVG and ends the year as a minus player. And I will do so because I prefer winning hockey games.  

 

This year however, he's already +5 so far. He was never better than +3 for a full season since he left Philly the first time despite scoring 106 EVGs.

 

You want him to score goals, I want him to win hockey games.  He doesn't kill penalties, so if he's a +5 player, he's doing his part to win hockey games and I can't really complain about him, I can just wish he was doing a bit more.

I happen to think based on his history and the history of Giroux, Voracek and Ghost, that the PP should be doing better all around and that it CAN be doing better all around.  In my view if he was putting up better power play numbers, and playing at even strength EXACTLY as he is, he'd be solid gold for this team right now.

 

It seems however that a lot of folks on this thread that I read and respect the opinions of, would be happier if he was scoring 35 goals and giving up 45 and that just doesn't make sense to me.  

 

[ruxpin]

21 minutes ago, King Knut said:

In my view if he was putting up better power play numbers, and playing at even strength EXACTLY as he is, he'd be solid gold for this team right now.

 

It seems however that a lot of folks on this thread that I read and respect the opinions of, would be happier if he was scoring 35 goals and giving up 45 and that just doesn't make sense to me.  

 

I'm more in you camp on this one.  He doesn't bother me 5v5 the way Jake does.

Like you, I just wish he would do something, anything, on the PP.   If not, maybe he needs to come off of it for a bit and try someone else.

 

Maybe it's the mix.  I don't know.  And it's not like at 14th that it's a disaster.  I mean, 14th is an improvement from 23rd.  (19.2% from 17.1%). But, like you, I feel like it should be better.   Maybe take him off, move Giroux up from the point, and stick Myers or Sanheim at the point and see what happens for a bit.   You can always put him back.

 

I mean, AV was calling him out, too.   I don't know that anything has appreciably changed with JVR since then, but we're winning so...