We really need some help on offense.

[FD19372]

I heard a rumor of Ghost for Getzlaf. Any truth to it? He makes a hell of a lot more money than Ghost, though. Even though at 33..he is still a good shutdown center. I would look for younger options to trade for if they're there, honestly.

[ruxpin]

6 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Not sure where anyone gets I want to do this I asked King if he was willing to part with that.

 

I don't...I have seen it mentioned a roster player and a prospect for him was the asking price.

 

And no so we are clear I hope no I do not want to pay that for him...it is why i suggested Saad.

Gotcha.   

 

 

[CoachX]

9 hours ago, King Knut said:

 

 

Just so much doesn't add up.  

I understand that Lindros was not well liked and that he hit hard (it was a little difficult or him not to given his size, speed and skill) and I understand that the Flyers in general never did a damn thing to protect him (or their investment in him) which was utterly idiotic and for which the organization (not to mention the league) is still dealing with residual consequences IMHO.

 

But I'm not sure how that gets us today where it's relatively acceptable to come up high and late with your elbow on a skilled player who happens to be making a play. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lindros was the transition point, imho. Prior to his era, the star players (gretz,mario) were not only protected by enforcers, they were too talented to get hit clean. Players simply had more respect for each other and the game. With Lindros, you couldnt hit him without the fear of him kicking your ass. So to netralize that, he got hit in the head in an attempt to take him out of the game. That was the only way you could beat him.

 

The rules changed. The fear of reprisal is gone, and the respect with it. Winning means contracts. Contracts equals money. Money that player in the 70s and 80s never dreamed of

[intheslot]

How about left winger..

 

[ruxpin]

51 minutes ago, intheslot said:

How about left winger..

 

Playing her off wing? Very nice. 

[radoran]

1 hour ago, intheslot said:

How about left winger..

 

 

I never knew Winger was a Canadian band...

 

[RonJeremy]

21 hours ago, CoachX said:

Lindros was the transition point, imho. Prior to his era, the star players (gretz,mario) were not only protected by enforcers, they were too talented to get hit clean. Players simply had more respect for each other and the game. With Lindros, you couldnt hit him without the fear of him kicking your ass. So to netralize that, he got hit in the head in an attempt to take him out of the game. That was the only way you could beat him.

 

The rules changed. The fear of reprisal is gone, and the respect with it. Winning means contracts. Contracts equals money. Money that player in the 70s and 80s never dreamed of

The other thing is, the  previous  superstars did not play physical hockey. Because of Lindros' size and style of play, the cheap shots he took were rarely called.  If players hit Lemieux and Gretzky like that it would have been a different story . 

[flyercanuck]

10 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

The other thing is, the  previous  superstars did not play physical hockey. Because of Lindros' size and style of play, the cheap shots he took were rarely called.  If players hit Lemieux and Gretzky like that it would have been a different story . 

 

Gordie Howe says hello. Of course when you do this to your opponents "tough guy" you may not have a lot of willing participants.

 

 

[elmatus]

A lot of this has been said before, but yeah, the NHL game has essentially opted to evolved with the times. Tough guy style game play is still coveted, but it's not as prominent as it may have been in the past. League rule changes are one thing, but really they're just a reflection of a growing social sensitivity to things like head shots, especially in sport. 

 

Hockey still hangs on to a reputation of being much rougher than the majority of other high profile sports -- it's just not quite as overt for those of us who remember days where every hit under the sun was waved away as "just a part of the game" regardless of the health repercussions involved for the players. With a growing understanding of the importance of mental health and neurobiology has come a tempering of sorts to things like hockey and other institutions with a goon-style tradition.

 

Are key players targeted more now? I dunno about that. I think they always were targeted. As with so many things related to mental health, we're just talking about it much more now than we did 20+ years ago. Concussions are no longer just part of the game now; they're something that the league actively tries their best to suppress. And when potential concussions happen, players are taken off the ice to try and limit the impact as quickly as possible. In reality, this is exactly what should happen if the goal is to reduce the damage done by concussions, so it's understandable.

 

The NHL is just trying to change with the times. They feel they have the licence to do so in part because none of the big sports tolerate things like fighting anyway. Hockey has always been an outlier in this regard, so this might be a sort of course correction in a way. The hitting is still very prominent in the game; it's just not as commonly the type of hitting that'll land you in the hospital with two years off your life. 

 

The other important element here is likely money too. If the NHL doesn't work to reduce the negative health outcomes of certain play styles, they know they're going to be dropping into court cases like mad. They need to be seen to be doing something for both social perception and to save on the bottom line and stay out of trouble, so they're trying to do what they feel they can.

 

I also agree with the talk on Lindros. I do think that is exactly the period where things began to change. Again though, they changed socially before changing within the game. The NHL is just trying to adapt to the times. While we can certainly talk about whether their moves have worked, I don't know that it's fair to blame them for trying to change at all. It's an evolve or die scenario, like so many others.

[King Knut]

On 1/27/2020 at 5:18 PM, OccamsRazor said:

 

Back when the Kings were decent depth wise he put up 31 goals for 58 points on their second line that isn't to shabby for top line numbers.

 

But as i said he will be costly to acquire....more than Ghost.

 

 

So if i may ask what do you think he will cost???

 

Made we still talking about Toffoli?  I think we get him and a low pick for ghost. Easily. Unless someone else is crazier.

 

They’re out.  They know it.  They’re collecting assets.  If they can resign him, then they can still resign him (they probably can’t regardless).   

 

They’re not losing anything, they can only gain. 

 

But i’m Just not sure.  As pointed out elsewhere ghost for a rental seems weak.  

 

 

[King Knut]

On 1/27/2020 at 5:26 PM, radoran said:

 

Wait, this about moving FROST? oh hell no

 

Or did your autocorrect change Ghost?

 

Mom not the one who brought him up.  I think someone did just as hyperbole to get us going.  Obviously that’s not realistic.  Unless for some reason Barzal or Peterson is on the table. 

[King Knut]

16 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

The other thing is, the  previous  superstars did not play physical hockey. Because of Lindros' size and style of play, the cheap shots he took were rarely called.  If players hit Lemieux and Gretzky like that it would have been a different story . 

 

I think this is a big part of things.  Refs and the league didn't have their attentions necessarily forced onto it because cheap shots and dirty hits that would have taken Gretzky or Lemieux or someone out for a few weeks kinda just bounced off Eric. 

 

Things progress though and guys keep getting away with harder and dirtier crap and eventually they start to do real damage to the point that he's blowing knees taking mid air WWE style elbows to his head and vomiting yellow fluid from a collapsed lung.  

 

But nah... that was because he was soft and prone to injury.  

 

Such utter B.S. 

[King Knut]

On 1/27/2020 at 9:14 PM, CoachX said:

Lindros was the transition point, imho. Prior to his era, the star players (gretz,mario) were not only protected by enforcers, they were too talented to get hit clean. Players simply had more respect for each other and the game. With Lindros, you couldnt hit him without the fear of him kicking your ass. So to netralize that, he got hit in the head in an attempt to take him out of the game. That was the only way you could beat him.

 

The rules changed. The fear of reprisal is gone, and the respect with it. Winning means contracts. Contracts equals money. Money that player in the 70s and 80s never dreamed of

 

The other half of it is that Lindros directly lead to the clutch and grab era of the 90's that the NHL spend 15 years trying to undo.

 

That was the only other way teams could slow him down and in the case of the Devils and the Redwings, it successfully lead them to multiple cups... except they called it "the trap" and got away with it.  

 

What it really was was assigning your biggest D man to grab onto Lindros whether he had the puck or not and not let go until you got the puck back. 

 

[CoachX]

6 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Gordie Howe says hello. Of course when you do this to your opponents "tough guy" you may not have a lot of willing participants.

 

 

Gordie only had 2 GH hat tricks in his career. The first came in 1953, he entered the league in 1946. He also only had 32 fights in career.

 

interestingly enough, one Rick Tocchet has the most career GHHT

[flyercanuck]

2 hours ago, CoachX said:

Gordie only had 2 GH hat tricks in his career. The first came in 1953, he entered the league in 1946. He also only had 32 fights in career.

 

interestingly enough, one Rick Tocchet has the most career GHHT

 

Right. But that doesn't mean he didn't play physical. Pretty sure you could put a photo of Gordie beside the term "physical hockey" and nobody would argue. Especially that guy on the Rangers.

[CoachX]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Right. But that doesn't mean he didn't play physical. Pretty sure you could put a photo of Gordie beside the term "physical hockey" and nobody would argue. Especially that guy on the Rangers.

i would argue

 

its a genetic defect

[RonJeremy]

10 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Gordie Howe says hello. Of course when you do this to your opponents "tough guy" you may not have a lot of willing participants.

 

 

OK thats one. But in general your typical superstar was not very physical,  so since Lindros was huge he took alot of abuse. In todays game they wouldnt be able to stop him.

[CoachX]

2 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

OK thats one. But in general your typical superstar was not very physical,  so since Lindros was huge he took alot of abuse. In todays game they wouldnt be able to stop him.

this is where I have to disagree with you. there have been plenty of superstars who have been physical players, just not many of Lindros caliber. However, if Eric played today, with the larger number off head shots taken, he would still be targeted. Most likely by even more players because retribution is uncommon. I realize time has passed, but Bertuzzi maimed a guy for life and was still able to continue playing

[RonJeremy]

14 hours ago, CoachX said:

this is where I have to disagree with you. there have been plenty of superstars who have been physical players, just not many of Lindros caliber. However, if Eric played today, with the larger number off head shots taken, he would still be targeted. Most likely by even more players because retribution is uncommon. I realize time has passed, but Bertuzzi maimed a guy for life and was still able to continue playing

I dont think the cheap shots and the hooking and holding is anywhere near what it was 10 years ago. Lindros was literally bear hugged in front of the net by guys like Pilon, Ulf the coward Samuelsson , Ulanov, etc, and penalties were never called. You dont see anyone paying the price in front of the net any more. In the old days if you went in front of the net you were cross checked  in your back ,if you dug for the puck you were flattened,  none of that happens now. Lindros would have a field day in todays game.In the past 40 years we had varying levels of superstars, but im talking the top level stars, Gretzy, Lemieux and Lindros. Of those three ,there is no comparison as to how the refs called penalties . The refs protected Lemieux and Gretzky because they weren't physical tough guys ,and never hit anyone. Because Lindros was so big and hit people, the refs never gave him the same treatment. 

[CoachX]

1 minute ago, RonJeremy said:

I dont think the cheap shots and the hooking and holding is anywhere near what it was 10 years ago. Lindros was literally bear hugged in front of the net by guys like Pilon, Ulf the coward Samuelsson , Ulanov, etc, and penalties were never called. You dont see anyone paying the price in front of the net any more. In the old days if you went in front of the net you were cross checked  in your back ,if you dug for the puck you were flattened,  none of that happens now. Lindros would have a field day in todays game.In the past 40 years we had varying levels of superstars, but im talking the top level stars, Gretzy, Lemieux and Lindros. Of those three ,there is no comparison as to how the refs called penalties . The refs protected Lemieux and Gretzky because they weren't physical tough guys ,and never hit anyone. Because Lindros was so big and hit people, the refs never gave him the same treatment. 

im not disagreeing with any of that. What I am saying is, I dont see anything the NHL does in todays game that would stop or deter players from taking cheap (head) shots at another player. If Eric played today, he would sufffer the same fate

[King Knut]

On 1/27/2020 at 7:42 PM, FD19372 said:

I heard a rumor of Ghost for Getzlaf. Any truth to it? He makes a hell of a lot more money than Ghost, though. Even though at 33..he is still a good shutdown center. I would look for younger options to trade for if they're there, honestly.

 

They'd have to take JVR back for that to be remotely possible.

 

He's producing just fine offensively as well and his contract is only one more year, so it's not like he'd be a cap 

liability for long.  

 

I guess it could benefit both teams, but the Ducks aren't long on centers, so I'd assume they'd be fishing for Laughton or Patrick as well at which point it stops making much sense for the Flyers.  

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, RonJeremy said:

I dont think the cheap shots and the hooking and holding is anywhere near what it was 10 years ago. Lindros was literally bear hugged in front of the net by guys like Pilon, Ulf the coward Samuelsson , Ulanov, etc, and penalties were never called. You dont see anyone paying the price in front of the net any more. In the old days if you went in front of the net you were cross checked  in your back ,if you dug for the puck you were flattened,  none of that happens now. Lindros would have a field day in todays game.In the past 40 years we had varying levels of superstars, but im talking the top level stars, Gretzy, Lemieux and Lindros. Of those three ,there is no comparison as to how the refs called penalties . The refs protected Lemieux and Gretzky because they weren't physical tough guys ,and never hit anyone. Because Lindros was so big and hit people, the refs never gave him the same treatment. 

 

This is one hundred percent accurate.  

 

It was so pervasive that it spread around the league.  To the point that they had to have several league summits and "rules changes" -which essentially meant enforcing the rules that were already in place- over the 2000's.  

 

By 2008, the likes of the Penguins had successfully weaponized this crack down of existing rules to the point where they could evoke a PP at the drop of a hat in a close game by simply holding your stick and you'd get called for hooking.  

 

The league and the refs did it to themselves out of spite and bitterness.  Today things are the most fair (which albeit isn't saying much) as I've seen since the late 80's.  

 

For my money, the game today is cleaner (meaning more fluid and less frustrating) and more enjoyable to watch as pure competition and sport than I'd say since 1994.  

 

I say that with the one caveat that I do believe the one area that has backslid is protecting the goalies.  

 

You're allowed to get away with infinitely more physically against a goalie than at any time in my lifetime.  You can literally cross check a goalie in the crease and if enough time passes before your team takes a shot, the refs won't call anything. 

 

I'm of the mind that if you end up on top of my goalie after a play, then I pick you up and beat the living hell out of you.  Except in today's NHL, I'd get a major and you'd score a PP goal for trying to break my goalie and getting away with it.  

 

This is a problem that needs to be addressed.  

 

 

Edited January 30, 2020 by King Knut

[RonJeremy]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

They'd have to take JVR back for that to be remotely possible.

 

He's producing just fine offensively as well and his contract is only one more year, so it's not like he'd be a cap 

liability for long.  

 

I guess it could benefit both teams, but the Ducks aren't long on centers, so I'd assume they'd be fishing for Laughton or Patrick as well at which point it stops making much sense for the Flyers.  

I would hold on to Ghost to trade for a younger player or in a package to move up in the draft for a top prospect. We don’t need an old declining player , we already have three. If we were inches from a Cup then Getzlaf would be a great acquisition at this point it’s a waste. Any tradeable assets we have should be used to build for the future, we have to start thinking about replacements for G and Jake and we really don’t know if Lindblom or Patrick are ever coming back , or if they do, they may be diminished in talent. Patrick has the kind of ailment where he may be in and out of the lineup for the rest of his career  and Lindblom is a huge question mark. We really can’t count on them. We have to plan as if these guys are not here, if they come back 100%, then it’s a huge bonus. So at this point we have a huge deficit  in our lineup and we need to replenish with young players.

[tucson83]

if it wasnt for hayes this team would alot worse right now, now if somehow add another center like pageau from the sens, i think he will put this team over the top and hopefully hart will play in his top form, this team can go deep in the playoffs. st. louis won the cup because they had depth on the center position and binnington played over the top.

[King Knut]

Just now, RonJeremy said:

I would hold on to Ghost to trade for a younger player or in a package to move up in the draft for a top prospect. We don’t need an old declining player , we already have three. If we were inches from a Cup then Getzlaf would be a great acquisition at this point it’s a waste. Any tradeable assets we have should be used to build for the future, we have to start thinking about replacements for G and Jake and we really don’t know if Lindblom or Patrick are ever coming back , or if they do, they may be diminished in talent. Patrick has the kind of ailment where he may be in and out of the lineup for the rest of his career  and Lindblom is a huge question mark. We really can’t count on them. We have to plan as if these guys are not here, if they come back 100%, then it’s a huge bonus. So at this point we have a huge deficit  in our lineup and we need to replenish with young players.

 

Frost and Farabee and a few others are the replacements in the pipe.

 

Lindblom and Patrick aside, I still believe there is something to the thought that there is a Jake and G window closing.

 

It's easy to say we're not inches from a cup because there are some big holes, but I think the team knows what they are (or at least I do and most of the covering press does) and they're actually kind of fillable.  

 

To think that there's no point in trying for the next three years when the team has handled the Caps, Penguins, Bruins, & Blues quite adeptly and competitively is a little defeatist IMHO.  

 

I don't know that I think Getz is the answer for this year or net, but I do know that if there's a way to include JVR, it gets 11 million off the cap by the end of next season and improves our 2C/3C significantly in that time.  

 

I just don't see how Anaheim does it in a way we'd like.  

 

I'm not sure you're going to get to move up high enough in a ghost trade for a pick in any event.  If someone really solid is out there, no team who is a "ghost away" would trade it for a middling pick and Ghost... otherwise Ghost would be valuable enough to keep.

 

I don't necessarily have the answer and I don't know how to ensure that Seattle takes JVR off our hands, and I STILL think it's pretty sad Therrien can't sort out how to get the PP going with Ghost at the point, G lower left and Jake on the right... BUT all that said, I do kind of almost think that the Flyers are a Lindblom and Patrick away from being pretty damned competitive right now. 

 

It's incredibly difficult not to think about "what if" especially when those two kids are going through what they are, but out of respect to them, I can't let myself do that.  

 

That said, it really shouldn't be impossible to pick up a bottom 6 piece or two that can truly help this team improve on the road... which is really where the problem lies.