This was the Leafs Roster the last time they played hockey beyond Round 1

[WordsOfWisdom]

I figured it might be worth mentioning what the Leafs roster looked like the last time this franchise and its fans got to experience hockey beyond the first round:

 

Toronto Maple Leafs circa 2004:

 

When the CHILDREN of many of these players are now in the NHL playing and your team still hasn't played past the first round, that's BAD.

 

 

 

[hobie]

The top 6 players listed were 28 or more so if they didn't win they weren't going anywhere ever.

 

Time will tell with the team we have now.

[WordsOfWisdom]

2 hours ago, hobie said:

The top 6 players listed were 28 or more so if they didn't win they weren't going anywhere ever.

 

Time will tell with the team we have now.

 

That was the last era where the Leafs "went for it".  Trade deadlines were exciting back then because I believe that was the year where Toronto acquired Brian Leetch at the deadline.  You always knew that Toronto was going to try and do something big. They were always looking to bring established stars to TO to go for a Stanley Cup. It didn't pan out, but at least they tried. They made some final fours and in many cases had a team that could have won it all.   

 

[hobie]

Ya, it was also the era where TO never got over the hump, traded away draft choices constantly looking for the fading star that was more fading than star.

 

In '67 TO won with an old lineup but that lineup was basically comprised of career Leafs and we have a chance to see that again but maybe this time the cast might be younger.

 

I didn't expect TO would be even able to make the playoffs this year, too much money in too few hands but I expect as the Cap rises TO will be able to add quality depth and truly contend.

[WordsOfWisdom]

4 hours ago, hobie said:

Ya, it was also the era where TO never got over the hump, traded away draft choices constantly looking for the fading star that was more fading than star.

 

True, but none of Toronto's draft picks ever panned out in Toronto during that age. That's why they felt inclined to get rid of them for proven talent. (Of course, there were some draft picks they got rid of who turned into superstars but the ones they kept never did.)

 

One thing you can say for certain is those teams from the Pat Quinn era (late 90's, early 2000's) were better than what we have today. 

 

Here's a strange bit of history: In 2004, the Leafs finished with a record of 45-24-10-3 for 103 pts.

(W-L-T-OL)

 

Toronto was the 3rd best team in the Eastern conference. They scored 242 goals and allowed 204. They were +38.

 

 

 

[flyercanuck]

10 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

True, but none of Toronto's draft picks ever panned out in Toronto during that age. That's why they felt inclined to get rid of them for proven talent. (Of course, there were some draft picks they got rid of who turned into superstars but the ones they kept never did.)

 

 That's not true...when you guys picked 1st overall and took no brainer pick Wendel Clark..well.. you nailed that one!  

 

10 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

One thing you can say for certain is those teams from the Pat Quinn era (late 90's, early 2000's) were better than what we have today. 

 

Here's a strange bit of history: In 2004, the Leafs finished with a record of 45-24-10-3 for 103 pts.

(W-L-T-OL)

 

 I remember when Toronto hit 100 that year and they were making a big deal out of it because it was their first time ever doing it. I thought there's no way...the Flyers have done that like 20 times. Sadly, it was true.

[WordsOfWisdom]

2 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

That's not true...when you guys picked 1st overall and took no brainer pick Wendel Clark..well.. you nailed that one!  

 

 

lol.  Out of curiosity, who else was in that same draft?  Mario Lemieux?  I'm curious...   

 

3 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

I remember when Toronto hit 100 that year and they were making a big deal out of it because it was their first time ever doing it. I thought there's no way...the Flyers have done that like 20 times. Sadly, it was true.

 

I realize that games played is a factor there (teams didn't start playing 80+ games until the 80's I think) but even still, it was embarrassing to think the team had never hit 100 points in a season before...... AND....... while on the subject, it's worth mentioning that the Toronto Blue Jays have never had a 100 win season in baseball either. The Yankees do it almost on an annual basis. So plenty of valleys in Toronto, and very low peaks. 

 

Also of note, no season would be complete without the Bruins finishing ahead of Toronto in the standings.... which they've done every season since their inception in the NHL (I think). 

 

[hobie]

18 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

True, but none of Toronto's draft picks ever panned out in Toronto during that age. That's why they felt inclined to get rid of them for proven talent. (Of course, there were some draft picks they got rid of who turned into superstars but the ones they kept never did.)

 

One thing you can say for certain is those teams from the Pat Quinn era (late 90's, early 2000's) were better than what we have today. 

 

Here's a strange bit of history: In 2004, the Leafs finished with a record of 45-24-10-3 for 103 pts.

(W-L-T-OL)

 

Toronto was the 3rd best team in the Eastern conference. They scored 242 goals and allowed 204. They were +38.

 

 

 

 

I think the reason the picks didn't pan out is because TO wasn't draft invested, make the playoffs was the mantra at that time. 

 

TO has had some pretty good draft choices in spite of itself like Damphousse,  Kaberle and many more but TO wasn't prepared to wait so they traded choices before or too quickly after the draft, no Niedermeyer, no Rask. John Ferguson Jr. consulted with the powers that be and recommended TO do a Shanaplan, he was told no, his job was to ensure that TO make the playoffs. TO wasn't spending anything on scouting, it looked like TO's draft choices were selected from The Hockey News' or the like's ratings.  

 

The teams were better but the price of that modest success was no Cup for 53 years. 

[WordsOfWisdom]

2 hours ago, hobie said:

I think the reason the picks didn't pan out is because TO wasn't draft invested, make the playoffs was the mantra at that time. 

 

True.  

 

2 hours ago, hobie said:

TO has had some pretty good draft choices in spite of itself like Damphousse,  Kaberle and many more but TO wasn't prepared to wait so they traded choices before or too quickly after the draft, no Niedermeyer, no Rask. John Ferguson Jr. consulted with the powers that be and recommended TO do a Shanaplan, he was told no, his job was to ensure that TO make the playoffs. TO wasn't spending anything on scouting, it looked like TO's draft choices were selected from The Hockey News' or the like's ratings.  

 

Pretty much. Toronto was one of those teams that just tried to buy success via free agency. 

 

2 hours ago, hobie said:

The teams were better but the price of that modest success was no Cup for 53 years. 

 

Even with Toronto's "no draft" philosophy back then, they iced at least 4-5 teams during that era that could have easily won a Stanley Cup. Management did their job to put the right pieces together. The players simply didn't get it done in the playoffs. 

 

If you look at who those teams lost to (LA, Vancouver, Buffalo, Carolina), Toronto was not an inferior team.    

[hobie]

I think the point is, is that TO somehow couldn't become a Cup winner and we have good reason to believe that the core of what we have now might not be excused away sometime in the near future.

 

TO couldn't make it past the first round in the last 3 playoffs and that seems horrible but considering the quality of the opposition I don't find that was anything to be really upset about.

 

How important is it to keep the core forwards together, tonite's game is a prime example. Matthews and Marner couldn't get it done so Nylander and Tavares rose to the occasion. While it's important that a team needs good to great defense, no team can go far without scoring. Pitts. won a Cup because they could score and their lone superior d-man was injured. Hainsey played on the top d pairing. What worked for Pitts was having superior forwards that bought into the necessity for them to help defend, maybe not Kessel. 

 

Chicago won a Cup with Niemi in net, Niemi was essentially a backup grade goalie thru his career.

 

When healthy I think TO has a decent enough d to win in the playoffs but that's only if the forwards are willing and able to be responsible. Trading away one of our superior forwards would be a disaster, improving the d would be ideal but there needs to be a way to do that without sacrificing what's great about the team. I'm sort of happy that Rielly and Ceci are injured because if TO is going to be stronger/better in the future it's probably going to be because Sandin and Liljegren are gaining valuable experience, now. That's NHL experience not AHL experience, we need them to develop, now, so they can support what might be a dominant team in the future.  

[WordsOfWisdom]

7 hours ago, hobie said:

When healthy I think TO has a decent enough d to win in the playoffs but that's only if the forwards are willing and able to be responsible.

 

It may be that the team moves one of our forwards to get a forward that is more of a two-way player. That's possible.

 

7 hours ago, hobie said:

Trading away one of our superior forwards would be a disaster, improving the d would be ideal but there needs to be a way to do that without sacrificing what's great about the team.

 

The draft. Toronto needs to keep doing what it began a few years ago when it drafted Matthews, Marner, etc....  We need to find defencemen through the draft and develop them. It won't happen any other way. Otherwise we would need to make sideways trades that weaken our offence in order to boost our defence. 

 

7 hours ago, hobie said:

I'm sort of happy that Rielly and Ceci are injured because if TO is going to be stronger/better in the future it's probably going to be because Sandin and Liljegren are gaining valuable experience, now.

 

Losing Rielly and Ceci has been the main reason the Leafs have been in a funk through February. Sandin looks to be another offensive defenceman in the same mold as Barrie and Rielly. We've got too many of these types. Someone has to go. Liljegren has been a disaster so far in my opinion. He's horrendous defensively. 

[OccamsRazor]

28 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

Losing Rielly and Ceci has been the main reason the Leafs have been in a funk through February.

 

And now no Muzzin for 4 weeks with a broke hand....stick a fork in them they're done. R.I.P.

[hobie]

2 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

It may be that the team moves one of our forwards to get a forward that is more of a two-way player. That's possible.

 

 

The draft. Toronto needs to keep doing what it began a few years ago when it drafted Matthews, Marner, etc....  We need to find defencemen through the draft and develop them. It won't happen any other way. Otherwise we would need to make sideways trades that weaken our offence in order to boost our defence. 

 

 

Losing Rielly and Ceci has been the main reason the Leafs have been in a funk through February. Sandin looks to be another offensive defenceman in the same mold as Barrie and Rielly. We've got too many of these types. Someone has to go. Liljegren has been a disaster so far in my opinion. He's horrendous defensively. 

 

I've been watching Sandin and I notice that he actually body checks, he doesn't just stick check so he is considerably different than Rielly and Barrie. He has a very good chance to become a more well balanced d-man than those 2.

 

Lily probably feels under the gun, make a couple mistakes and he's done, with the Muzzin injury he might feel freer and we might get a better view of his true potential. The prevailing opinion on him when in the A was that defensively he's more developed than Sandin.

 

I'm just hoping they both can learn to not just be puck watching, TO's lone non puck watcher now is Muzzin and before him it was Kostka.

[WordsOfWisdom]

7 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

And now no Muzzin for 4 weeks with a broke hand....stick a fork in them they're done. R.I.P.

 

I don't normally use injuries as an excuse for poor team performance but the Leafs have now crossed over that threshold from "common, minor injuries to random players that every team goes through in a season" to "significant, prolonged injuries to key players at the worst possible times".  

 

Now, imagine the accomplishment it would be if they could still make the playoffs with a severely depleted group, and then get healthy as round 1 begins.   

[flyercanuck]

10 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

I don't normally use injuries as an excuse for poor team performance but the Leafs have now crossed over that threshold from "common, minor injuries to random players that every team goes through in a season" to "significant, prolonged injuries to key players at the worst possible times".  

 

Now, imagine the accomplishment it would be if they could still make the playoffs with a severely depleted group, and then get healthy as round 1 begins.   

 

Our 2nd overall pick hasn't played a game this year. Our other 2nd overall pick has played his entire career with no heart. Cry me a river.

[Podein25]

4 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

Our 2nd overall pick hasn't played a game this year. Our other 2nd overall pick has played his entire career with no heart. Cry me a river.

 

No kidding.

 

We had a goalie go 5-0 and then get vertigo. We had a coach get cancer mid-season and go crazy (that's a joke), we had another goalie, a prodigy no less, die driving his Porsche into a wall, we had a guy die in a freak fishing accident, we had the best player in a generation but he was incapable of picking his head up and was lucky not to die on the ice ion national television. And, we actually signed Pat Falloon to a contract!

 

We in Philly know pain.

[WordsOfWisdom]

5 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Our 2nd overall pick hasn't played a game this year. Our other 2nd overall pick has played his entire career with no heart. Cry me a river.

 

So you're saying the Flyers would be all hunkie dory if you lost Provorov, Sanheim, and Niskanen for two months, beginning in January (the stretch where you began piling up points), and all at the same time? 

 

 

[WordsOfWisdom]

20 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

No kidding.

 

We had a goalie go 5-0 and then get vertigo. We had a coach get cancer mid-season and go crazy (that's a joke), we had another goalie, a prodigy no less, die driving his Porsche into a wall, we had a guy die in a freak fishing accident, we had the best player in a generation but he was incapable of picking his head up and was lucky not to die on the ice ion national television. And, we actually signed Pat Falloon to a contract!

 

We in Philly know pain.

 

I'm probably not going to get all of those player references but in having Lindros you had the best player in the game for several years before injuries cut his career short.    

 

Side note: I was watching the salute to Ovechkin video for reaching the 700 goal club and out of all the members in the 700 club, not one Leafs jersey. You had Gretzky, Howe, Dionne, Jagr, Hull, Gartner, Esposito, etc....... No Leafs jersey.

 

The all time leader in goals for Toronto is Mats Sundin with just 420.    

 

In fact, if you look at the all-time points leaders by franchise, Toronto's best player (Mats Sundin) had 987 points. There are only 8 teams in the NHL with a lower total than that. (The Blue Jackets, Coyotes, Panthers, Wild, Predators, Lightning, Knights, and Jets.)

 

 

[Podein25]

10 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

Side note: I was watching the salute to Ovechkin video for reaching the 700 goal club and out of all the members in the 700 club, not one Leafs jersey. You had Gretzky, Howe, Dionne, Jagr, Hull, Gartner, Esposito, etc....... No Leafs jersey.

 

The all time leader in goals for Toronto is Mats Sundin with just 420.    

 

In fact, if you look at the all-time points leaders by franchise, Toronto's best player (Mats Sundin) had 987 points. There are only 8 teams in the NHL with a lower total than that. (The Blue Jackets, Coyotes, Panthers, Wild, Predators, Lightning, Knights, and Jets.)

 

It does indeed suck to be you. 

[flyercanuck]

38 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

So you're saying the Flyers would be all hunkie dory if you lost Provorov, Sanheim, and Niskanen for two months, beginning in January (the stretch where you began piling up points), and all at the same time? 

 

 

 

Hunkie dory? No. 

 

Expecting it? Ya. 

[AJgoal]

6 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Our 2nd overall pick hasn't played a game this year. Our other 2nd overall pick has played his entire career with no heart. Cry me a river.

 

And the team's (at the time) leading goal scorer is out for the season (and possibly forever) with cancer.

[flyercanuck]

Just now, AJgoal said:

 

And the team's (at the time) leading goal scorer is out for the season (and possibly forever) with cancer.

 

Right. But have they folded up the tents and packed in the season?

 

Hell no!

[AJgoal]

59 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

So you're saying the Flyers would be all hunkie dory if you lost Provorov, Sanheim, and Niskanen for two months, beginning in January (the stretch where you began piling up points), and all at the same time? 

 

 

 

Let's be fair, we're actually talking about losing Provorov, Niskanen, and Hagg - Ceci may log minutes, but he's not good by any standard. The difference for the Flyers is that they have guys who can fill in and play passably in the absence of some of those guys in Friedman and Ghost, depth that Toronto lacks.

[hobie]

2nd overall choice that plays without any heart, TO had him for 6 years in his prime and he didn't have any heart then but at one time most of TO's centers were injured so he was tried at center, guess how long that lasted.

 

1 hour ago, AJgoal said:

 

Let's be fair, we're actually talking about losing Provorov, Niskanen, and Hagg - Ceci may log minutes, but he's not good by any standard. The difference for the Flyers is that they have guys who can fill in and play passably in the absence of some of those guys in Friedman and Ghost, depth that Toronto lacks.

 

When it comes to TO's defense I'm reminded of Nova Scotia, there's no such thing as good times or bad times as far as jobs or economic opportunities because in good or bad times for most of the country, N.S. times never change. Actually TO does have d depth, the level of play for any of the d isn't outstanding so when one gets injured replacements are relatively easy to find.

 

Good defensive teams have a good goalie and forwards that participate in defending, TO's d might not be stellar but it's alright and even exceptional because the forwards don't participate in TO and TO is still in the playoff race.

 

This Ceci perception is something that has been universally accepted but is based more on a guy who has played on bad teams rather than his lack of ability. TO used to have Polak, another universally panned d-man, TO doesn't resign him yet Dallas does and Dallas is still one of the best defensive teams. The only problem with Ceci is he's overpaid for what he can do.   

[flyercanuck]

14 minutes ago, hobie said:

2nd overall choice that plays without any heart, TO had him for 6 years in his prime and he didn't have any heart then but at one time most of TO's centers were injured so he was tried at center, guess how long that lasted.

 

 

 

 

 I don't recall anyone hating the fact we traded JVR away...the return was just lame. It wasn't because of his skill...or size...or skating...he's just always played like he doesn't care.

 

 I'll guess one shift on your question.