Jump to content

Was 2020 Another 2008 Head Fake?


Howie58

Recommended Posts

Thinking about this playoff run brought back memories of 2008.  Some of you may recall that was the year after our worst season in history, when Hitchcock was fired after 8 games and Clarke resigned as GM.  So, in trots Paul Holmgren, and he works some trades (and eventually wins GM of the year), and Stevens appears to be a good hire.  We have a remarkable turnaround and go to the ECF.  It looked like we might have finally entered the "New NHL" in the post-strike era.  But....other than our fluke of a run in 2010, we really didn't gain traction as a franchise.

 

So, here we are 12 years later.  We have a new GM and a new coach.  But after this playoff run, I wonder if there is as much change as we think?  Yes, we seem to have a world-class goalie.  Our D is respectable.  But, a Montreal team that would not have made the playoffs in a traditional season extends us to six games and outscores us 13-11.  We showed gumption against the Isles.  But there are "Hakstolian" stats.  We win a bunch of faceoffs but it doesn't lead to high danger shots.  Our PP is impotent.  Our ability to drive play..meh.

 

Yes, we have some a stable of prospects, but they may or may not pan out.  As best I can tell, and others here are probably better at the analysis, it might be fair to say we don't have a first line.  I like Hayes, but he is not a MacKinnon or Barzal.  G and V are spent forces. I agree with others that JVR was probably not a great pickup. Coots and Laughton are competent but not game changers.  Our bottom six---a blur.  I suspect Grant and Thompson are gone, but I am not sure which youngins will take their place, if that really matters.  We need third or fourth lines that can add some offense, not simply stifle the opposition's. 

 

AV and his staff are probably the best we've had in ages.  But he can only coax so much out of people.  I hope some of our youngins turn into Barzals or Suzukis.  I am afraid that we will view this year as another 2008 if that doesn't happen.

 

Howie

 

 

 

Edited by Howie58
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Howie58 said:

But, a Montreal team that would not have made the playoffs in a traditional season extends us to six games and outscores us 13-11.

 

And the Flyers are a lot like these guys.

 

They to lack a true sniper or two (for 7 mill a year we all hope JVR could be that guys but he is too soft to be that guy) who will make you pay on a power play as we all just witnessed i think the 5th worst power play in the last 30 years or more.

 

The Flyer need to add some guys who can score they have too many guys who want to pass pass pass and none who really wants to go down low and get their nose dirty in the dirty areas well they have a few but they are more suited for the bottom 6 and Coots will.

 

Otherwise the the Flyers have a bunch of perimeter passers and until that changes they won't go any further.

 

Chuckles has his work cut off for him but there are some teams with some money to spend who the big time free agents won't want to sign with who don't have real shots to reach the top....maybe the Flyers can offload some of their dead weight there...and it doesn't have to be an equal return in my eyes some of it i would be happy and salary cap relief and some resources back in return.

 

Anyways i am proud of the kids for fighting and finding a way to get to a game 7 in the second round...they have some good pieces to retool around...the kids got some good experience...

 

...but the Flyers have way to many players that need to see the Wizard to find some heart...change is needed.

 

Have a good day Howie at least football is kicking off soon....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

They have to let Braun walk. Friedman needs to be given a solid chance to make this team next year. I wouldn't be shocked if Ghost is part of a package for a nice return...it's obvious the coaching staff doesn't believe in him especially when they kept skating this impotent power play out every game.

 

It seemed if he couldn't help now he may never be able to help...might as well say goodbye.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Howie58 said:

Our D is respectable. 

 

This is true once again there is a lot we all can learn from the Isles.

 

Their top 4 were all drafted.

 

Pulock 1st 2013

Pelech 3rd 2012 

Mayfield 4th 2011 

Toews 4th 2014 

 

So i think with the Flyers they have a great start they just need to give the kids time to grow and develop.

 

Not sure who fills out the top 4 but they more than likely have 3 set in Stone.

 

Provorov, Myers and Sanheim. Also we notice the Isles guys all had size except their bottom pair Leddy (6-0) Greene (5-11).

 

However the bottom pair also wasn't drafted but acquired by trades.

 

Can Zamula be that missing top pair guy who can play with Ivan?? Not sure he may need some more seasoning in the AHL.

 

Niskanen is only under contract for next year who knows maybe someone shines and makes him a trade deadline move.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Howie58 said:

I suspect Grant and Thompson are gone

 

I hope so i know those guys were not brought in to score goals but c'mon Thompson 16 games 1 assist. Grant 15 games 2 assist.

 

It is time to give the kids like Bunnaman and maybe Rubtsov some bigger minutes in the bottom 6 next year. I can see Pitlick being brought back.

 

I would like a bottom 9 look like this...

 

Lindblom - Hayes - Farabee

Laughton - Frost - NAK

Raffl - Bunnaman - Pitlick

 

Someone else can fill in the top line....it doesn't need to be the perimeter line of Giroux, Coots and Jake.

 

I can see Coots already being two thirds of it.

 

God knows they can not afford to have Konecny go two round and not score any goals he will need to earn his 5.5 mill salary.

 

And Patrick being able to play would be an added bonus but i don't have him in yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's all mindset in Philadelphia, from management to coaching to players. Management still thinks this team needs to be big and tough, coaching thinks that only veterans get prime playing time and the young players who should be playing are caught in this ancient way of thinking. 

 

I hope this offseason, they move on. Get rid of Therrien behind the bench. An 0 for power play in the playoffs is unacceptable, especially with the fire power available. 

 

I hope the Flyers move on from several players and go young. Let the Frosts, Bunnamans, Rubtsovs, etc all play without fear of being bumped by a grizzled veteran just 'because'. If these guys are the future, then let them learn and let them play. 

 

In terms of veterans, I'm ready to see the club move on from JVR, Giroux, Voracek, Grant, Thompson, Braun, and Niskanen. If rather the club take a 'step back' if it means taking five steps ahead. 

 

Thera a very good base of talent right now between Philadelphia, Lehigh Valley, and respective junior leagues and the NCAA. Continue to add to that base and ensure that a good development path is in place. The fact that there seems to be such a disparity between what players are learning in Lehigh Valley and what is happening in Philadelphia is concerning. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I want to be candid--Howie58 is a half-glass empty guy.  That said, we have a lot of cap space tied up in forwards who may be past their prime.  The D is, as many of my friends of Italian-American background might say, "mezza, mezza."  Occ's figures above are kind of shocking but not surprising.  

 

On that score, let's not waste Provo or Myers' prime with mediocre forwards, the way we probably wasted Claude Giroux's and others. I think Fletch will have to act quickly.

 

As for the D, well, I suspect we aren't as hamstrung by contracts as we are up front.  I didn't realize that Hagg is out this year.  Yes, Niskanen has another year.  I suspect Ghost is given a shot to stick around up front but may be gone if there is no turnaround.  

 

Again, after a night of sleep and whatever, I am "venting" but also realistic.  AV and Fletcher have breathed some life into the franchise.  But we have to be realistic and this playoff season wasn't that inspiring.  Our PP problems and "other" cropped up under the prior coach, and that confirms we have a personnel issue more than a guidance one, though Bobby Clarke 16's take is also a factor.  

 

I will be curious to see how the press assesses this season.  They've been ripping a new one on the captain's underperformance.  I wonder what they will do with the team.  

 

My bottom line is that we may be at a big-time crossroads.   Hextall accumulated a lot of talent but it wasn't being deployed right.  I suspect Fletcher-AV is a step quicker and better.  But I don't want another 2008.  I might say that was actually the start of a deep funk from which we're just leaving.  Going eight years without a playoff series win means we were in a big ditch. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wonder how the pandemic has and will affect the prospect's development.

Some of the LHV guys were sent back to the K so they can play hockey. So they are playing against men in a decent league, Rubstov, Kase euro guys projected to the bottom six will have a bit of a jump on the North American guys who are eating mama's canolis.

Perhaps some of the boys turn into men in this time but their hands and legs atrophy...

There's no guarantee that any of the prospects that the collective "we" have high hopes for  take any steps towards becoming NHL players. I think not playing hockey for a year will make projecting and developing these guys more difficult. 

 

There is a good pool of prospects and some good young players that now understand what kind of conditioning and what kind of effort is needed to play in the playoff tournament. 

 

I cannot see where 7aav for JvR is the right return on investment. I thought Voracek was the best of the player on his line this whole tournament. If the idea is to create some cap space 2 of these contracts should be moved. I think 93 would give us the best return because the Flyers aren't selling low and the lack of an NMC. There won't be retained salary which I feel certain would be the case with 25 and maybe 28. Giroux doesn't appear to be a top line player anymore his contract and NMC will make him difficult to move, so I think he should move down the line-up, he can still penalty kill and win draws. He's still useful, 8 aav on the 3rd line isn't ideal but if his usage is 3rd line he's not going to command 1st line $ when contract time comes around. 

 

I was talking with a guy on twitter who could be girl, or a bot, anyway this account was saying that Patrick should be traded because his uncle is a jerk and there's stuff going on behind the scenes with him also that he didn't tweet anything about the team during the playoffs so he sucks.- that's paraphrasing the account seemed to know stuff, but then lot's of people seem to know stuff on the internet. That conversation furthers the notion that he's not a sure thing, l like his abilities, size and that he's kind of a son-of-a-bitch so he could be a remedy for the Barzal deficit maybe Frost could be that guy too. It's tough to know though because Barzal's playing and growing our guys aren't.

 

I think the core of the 2008 team was pretty good, there was playoff hockey and varying degrees of success, the team 09/10 and 10/11 teams were really good. But that window wasn't open long because of Dry Island and some other ******** hopefully this group has a longer duration of winning hockey. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Simple question: Which prospect seriously has a chance to be another Barzal, MacKinnon, Kucherov, or Matthew?  Watching Frost in LV last year it's hard to see the same potential there. He has no concept of defense, is easily pressured into mistakes and doesn't seem to give complete effort every shift.  He wouldn't match up well against the heavier NHL teams.  There are lots of other prospects but I don't see any game changers.  Their best AHLer, Vorobyev, is gone.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, Poconono said:

Simple question: Which prospect seriously has a chance to be another Barzal, MacKinnon, Kucherov, or Matthew?  Watching Frost in LV last year it's hard to see the same potential there. He has no concept of defense, is easily pressured into mistakes and doesn't seem to give complete effort every shift.  He wouldn't match up well against the heavier NHL teams.  There are lots of other prospects but I don't see any game changers.  Their best AHLer, Vorobyev, is gone.

that's the issue with these prospects, they are no game changers, that's why im saying if there are game changers are on the block, trade them for those players because relying on them and not producing can really set franchise backwards, heck there's no guarantee there's going to be game changers in the top 5 draft heck you could be drafting nolan patrick again.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are 2 elite talents in the organization. The rest are bottom 6 and 3rd pair players. 5 years of Hextall striving for mediocrity will do that. Drafting 14th every year makes the draft a long odds lottery. That is the reality of where the Flyers are at. All of the naysayers who eschew a blowing it up, this is what the results are. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

Rubtsov

 

He will stay in the KHL all year from Appleyard's report which sucks because he could've had a legit shot in the Flyer's bottom 6.

 

2 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

 

I cannot see where 7aav for JvR is the right return on investment.

 

I am hoping that once Arizona loses out on Hall maybe they would be open to trade for JVR for LW replacement.

 

Not a bad one....just as one dimensional and JVR put 3 more goals than him last year and only 12 less assists.

 

He is locked in for 3 more years at 7 mill not the worst contract in the world....not great either but for a second line winger ok.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, flyer4ever said:

There are 2 elite talents in the organization. The rest are bottom 6 and 3rd pair players. 5 years of Hextall striving for mediocrity will do that. Drafting 14th every year makes the draft a long odds lottery. That is the reality of where the Flyers are at. All of the naysayers who eschew a blowing it up, this is what the results are. 

 

Frost and Farabee has a chance to be really good. Remember Farabee is only 20.

 

Allison and Laczynski are two more who have a chance to be solid contributors they just need some time in the AHL to learn what is expected of them.

 

It is too hard to say what any of these kids will be now. We just have to give them the chance grow and learn and see what happens.

 

With the exception of Beauviller and Barzal the Isles group of forwards are in their late 20 or are 30 so none of these guys were what was expected of them in their early 20's i mean look how long it took Josh Bailey to round into something of value.

 

They just have to continue to develop and then supplement with free agency when they can.

 

Right now is the time for the Flyer to continue to disassemble the core and replace them with the youth. Which i expect to happen.

 

Right now what other choice do we have i have to hope they seen what we all did...

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another thing I've been seeing on twitter and maybe even here is making a trade with Winnipeg for Ehlers or Laine.

 

Word on the street is Laine has been working on playing 200 feet which makes him intriguing to me.  First 2 years of Laine where he just shot and if he missed watched the odd man rush against was a non-starter. I mean the shot is all-world but if he's not scoring what's he giving you? So news that he's rounding out his game makes him far more desirable. 

A guy with that shot doesn't stay in a slump for long and the Flyers could have really used a guy who can find his shot regardless of the amount of space he has in these playoffs.  

Ehlers I know less about, but I've never heard bad things about him and have seen people in our forums express interest and admiration for his game. 

We need a dynamic player, they need defense, this is a situation that could be good for both teams in terms of a hockey trade. Both teams benefit.  

 

In terms of the high $ guys, I heard this today and it makes sense, in the case of a JvR you're most likely getting back some other team's "problem" so moving those guys to create cap space or whatever, isn't quite the panacea to move the team forward.

 

There are lessons to be learned from the way these playoffs went, mostly our defense has a ways to go dealing with fast forechecking teams...I hope that the management learns from this playoffs and makes some tweaks, I don't think blowing the team up for the 3rd time in 10 years is necessary nor wise.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

This is true once again there is a lot we all can learn from the Isles.

 

Their top 4 were all drafted.

 

Pulock 1st 2013

Pelech 3rd 2012 

Mayfield 4th 2011 

Toews 4th 2014 

 

You're not wrong, but those four guys are not the major reasons why they walked all over us. They're nice supportive pieces for sure, but I would argue we already have a lot of those supportive pieces. What we really lack are the main pieces.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

He will stay in the KHL all year from Appleyard's report which sucks because he could've had a legit shot in the Flyer's bottom 6.

 

 

I am hoping that once Arizona loses out on Hall maybe they would be open to trade for JVR for LW replacement.

 

Not a bad one....just as one dimensional and JVR put 3 more goals than him last year and only 12 less assists.

 

He is locked in for 3 more years at 7 mill not the worst contract in the world....not great either but for a second line winger ok.

 

 

In the right situation JvR is a nice player to have, I think the situation is one where he isn't being relied upon to be a leader. I do think a guy with his skill can get 30 goals with middling effort, Arizona has that guy already his name is Phil Kessel. But finding the right scenario for him him and the Flyers I'm betting will prove difficult. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Poconono said:

Simple question: Which prospect seriously has a chance to be another Barzal, MacKinnon, Kucherov, or Matthew?  Watching Frost in LV last year it's hard to see the same potential there. He has no concept of defense, is easily pressured into mistakes and doesn't seem to give complete effort every shift.  He wouldn't match up well against the heavier NHL teams.  There are lots of other prospects but I don't see any game changers.  Their best AHLer, Vorobyev, is gone.

 

Honestly? I really don't think anyone in our current pool will reach the same level of play as those guys. Barzal is good but a notch below those other three. It's conceivable we could draft a Barzal in the mid 1st or something, or maybe by some stroke of luck someone like Frost could come close to that (though he has a long way to go yet for that).

 

To get a Mackinnon, Matthews, or Kucherov (an amazing and highly improbable find), we're almost guaranteed to be talking a top 1-3 pick. 

 

Someone was talking about Eichel being on the market though... I have no idea how much he'd cost, but then you'd be looking at that same ballpark. I'd consider Laine too, though I feel like he'd be best on a team where he's not expected to be the top guy. Feels like he needs to be a wingman to keep his ego in check and take some of the pressure off. Could be wrong though.

 

At the very least, a Laine really needs solid playmakers to shine. Eichel on the other hand can stand alone a lot more imo. Not that we're likely to get either guy.. I'm just spitballing. I do think what this team really needs is a gamechanger or two though, and I don't think we have that in the system.

Edited by elmatus
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, elmatus said:

those four guys are not the major reasons why they walked all over us.

 

Sure the major one reason there were no players who were a major reason they were just a huge piece of the pie that executed their coaches system to a T and then when out and out hustled the Flyers all over the ice and just showed they wanted it more and will out and imposed their will on the flacid Flyers.

 

I just hope the Flyers take this and learn a lot from the ass whoopin they took. Otherwise there was no point in them making the playoffs.

 

I think it will be a very huge lesson for the kids going forward especially the kid who gave them the biggest change.

 

Carter Hart. Now rest up and train for the next year......

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

In the right situation JvR is a nice player to have, I think the situation is one where he isn't being relied upon to be a leader. I do think a guy with his skill can get 30 goals with middling effort, Arizona has that guy already his name is Phil Kessel. But finding the right scenario for him him and the Flyers I'm betting will prove difficult. 

If JVR had a creative center setting him up all night ,he would score 35 goals no problem. He isn’t the kind of player who will make any plays on his own, but if he had a guy like Barzal passing to him, he would be a much better player as would most players. If he isn’t on the first two lines , then you need to trade him. He is one dimensional, he needs someone creating the plays and he finishes them and he needs to go to the net and bang in rebounds. If there is a team with a top end playmaking center that needs a left wing to complement his style, then maybe we can unload JVR if we pickup 2 million on each year left in his contract.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

Arizona has that guy already his name is Phil Kessel.

 

Exactly he would slot nicely on their LW with Dvorak and Kessel.

 

I think Hayton gets bumped up to see if he can fill the top LW spot and if not then swap him with JVR.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Poconono said:

Simple question: Which prospect seriously has a chance to be another Barzal, MacKinnon, Kucherov, or Matthew?  Watching Frost in LV last year it's hard to see the same potential there. He has no concept of defense, is easily pressured into mistakes and doesn't seem to give complete effort every shift.  He wouldn't match up well against the heavier NHL teams.  There are lots of other prospects but I don't see any game changers.  Their best AHLer, Vorobyev, is gone.

 

Frost is going to be perfectly fine and can easily be another Barzal. Let's be honest about Lehigh Valley - Scott Gordon is a retard who has zero coaching acumen and NO business developing prospects. He's only there out of a misguided sense of loyalty to someone who took over the big club when Hakstol all but poisoned the locker room with horrendous coaching decisions and over usage and misuse of players. The fact that Frost did as well as he did with no viable instruction is nothing more than a minor miracle. It also speaks in volumes that Vigneault wanted him on the club and it was Fletcher that decided elsewise. The 2020-2021 season, Vigneault will have Frost for the full year. 

 

As for the 'third pairing' defensemen, that's ludicrous. Provorov is a number one in the league. Sanheim and Meyers have number one upside and are currently the second pairing. Zamula has top 4 upside. Same with York. Ronnie Attard might end up the sleeper of the group. And Friedman is ready so when Braun walks, he steps in. 

 

As for the rest of the forwards, Farabee will be a legit top six guy. He just turned 20 and plays a full 200 foot game. Patrick is a legitimate question mark, but if they can get the migraine issues addressed, he's good to go. O'Brien gets a do over with Boston University. And depending what the Flyers do at the draft, if they draft a guy like Mavrik Bourque or Brendan Brisson, that's another high end piece to add to the pipeline. 

 

So no, it isn't doom and gloom. There are very legitimate pieces in the system. Prospect development isn't linear either, so some guys might take longer than others. That's just the way it is. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/7/2020 at 12:07 PM, mojo1917 said:

I don't think blowing the team up for the 3rd time in 10 years is necessary nor wise.

 

Hard to compare a team that hasn't beaten a legit playoff team in the playoffs for seven? Eight? Years? Vs. A team a year removed from a Finals appearance...

 

But I do agree that blowing it up for the sake of blowing it up doesn't make sense.

 

Nor IMO does simply staying the course.

 

That said, I don't expect them to make major changes. They will try to deal JVR IMO and possibly a younger chip (Ghost? Sanheim?) If they can get some value back.

 

But they're going to trumpet the regular season roll they were on, the #1 seed after the round robin, and giving AV another crack with a set squad.

 

Let's hope we get to see if it works in 20-21...

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, radoran said:

They will try to deal JVR IMO and possibly a younger chip (Ghost? Sanheim?) If they can get some value back.

 

I don't think they trade Sanheim. Ghost is done as a Flyer if for no other reason the coach doesn't trust him and never will. It will be interesting to see what the price of taking JVR off our hands is...

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...