mojo1917 Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 37 minutes ago, radoran said: Hard to compare a team that hasn't beaten a legit playoff team in the playoffs for seven? Eight? Years? Montreal beat a "legit" playoff team to get into the this year's tournament. So the thought that they were some how not worthy is not what the results on the ice showed. You can only the play the team in the other locker room. This line of thinking doesn't track with me. Also, I'm not out here saying everything is perfect. If there are things to be done to make the team better, then I'm on board. I am not on board with overreacting to a bad series against a team that has presented match-up problems for a couple of years. i would like to see the team continue to be built with mostly internal prospects, addition by subtraction via attrition and jedi mindtrick trade for a dynamic player. All the "trade the guys making over 7aav a year, strip the C, deal the V" talk...that reads like emotion mind and not wise mind to me. I think progress was made this year, things should have been learned about weak spots- those lessons should not be ignored, I don't think correcting them requires deviating from the current team building process 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 1 hour ago, mojo1917 said: I think progress was made this year, things should have been learned about weak spots- those lessons should not be ignored, I don't think correcting them requires deviating from the current team building process So, trust the process then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 27 minutes ago, Podein25 said: So, trust the process then? I know funny-haha-Philadelphia sports joke, but yes. Even the best teams have other teams that "give them trouble". The Islanders are a Metro team that will need to be dealt with in the near term, they are built to win now, making some adjustments to be able to beat them in is prudent. I don't think a wise GM gives up their "vision" for what they're trying to build though. If team A is always chasing team B, C and D's success then that team never becomes what it could be. Team A is always playing someone else's game and copying someone else's success. That never seems to work, have a vision stick to it, make tweaks along the way until the the goal is achieved. Looks to me like our team's strength can be improved, that was shown in a lot of lost board battles. It seemed like our guys were never able to anticipate where a rebound would go or where the next Islander would be coming from...a lot of d-zone weakside coverages were blown. Was this because of puck watching? scrambling to stop a play? not trusting a guy to do their job? Numerous goals against in this series came from NYI weakside d-men walking to the top of the circle and shooting their best shot because they had the time to do so. That seems to me like something that Xs and Os can fix. Also it really seemed as though the NYI had better sticks than the Flyers, they got their sticks on every pass, even on lost battles, they managed to get a touch on every desperation lunge, it was too frequent to always be luck, so that's probably something a skills coach can work with the team on. Having a dynamic player would help too, TK is supposed to be that guy, but he got the hell beat out of him. Giroux is no longer that guy, so finding another guy that teams can't catch and is magic with the puck on his stick would be helpful, I don't think redoing the team to get that one guy or restructuring so we have 5 Matt Martins is the way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 5 hours ago, Podein25 said: I don't think they trade Sanheim. Ghost is done as a Flyer if for no other reason the coach doesn't trust him and never will. It will be interesting to see what the price of taking JVR off our hands is... Could be Sanheim... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 4 hours ago, mojo1917 said: This line of thinking doesn't track with me. I knew it wouldn't. Still, when they came up against a legit playoff team they were fairly outclassed. 4 hours ago, mojo1917 said: I am not on board with overreacting to a bad series against a team that has presented match-up problems for a couple of years Thing is, that team is in the same division and not going anywhere - with a reputed upgrade in goal coming. 4 hours ago, mojo1917 said: I don't think correcting them requires deviating from the current team building process and their competition continues to develop as well. The Isles had their C walk away and are better off IMO than if they had paid him $10M. This year's ECF has a team that "presents matchup problems" and another that has younger top players who actually produce. And both are relatively younger with more playoff experience. And we haven't even looked out West at teams like the Avs and Knight. I'm not saying "can't happen" - I'm saying it probably takes a couple "jedi mindtrick" trades to make it happen. And certainly better production from the top down. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, radoran said: Thing is, that team is in the same division and not going anywhere - with a reputed upgrade in goal coming. you saw this then... 2 hours ago, mojo1917 said: The Islanders are a Metro team that will need to be dealt with in the near term, they are built to win now, making some adjustments to be able to beat them in is prudent. The Islanders "maturity" on defense was evident. Pellech was quite good. I think in a couple of years our young guys could be *better. And we have more of them. The young guys got the hell forechecked out of them by mature squad. I think that series was a great learning experience for the organization...least it hope there were some lessons taken. Beatings without learning just suck. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, mojo1917 said: Having a dynamic player would help too And how do you plan on obtaining said player?? I keep hearing the Flyers supposedly good players won't fetch s.hit from a hobo's hat... ...we're stuck with them or need to keep them because noone would want them so I can't see how you are going to get this dynamic player? Abduct him? Edited September 9, 2020 by OccamsRazor The Bourbon wasn't enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonJeremy Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 16 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: you saw this then... The Islanders "maturity" on defense was evident. Pellech was quite good. I think in a couple of years our young guys could be *better. And we have more of them. The young guys got the hell forechecked out of them by mature squad. I think that series was a great learning experience for the organization...least it hope there were some lessons taken. Beatings without learning just suck. Yes , they could be a thorn in our side for a few years , they have us beat in the speed, skill, size and toughness.. Back in the day we could use our size and toughness and sheer will and tenacity to sometimes beat a more skilled team. We would outhit and out work the other teams. These days we don’t really have an identity . We aren’t fast or highly skilled, we aren’t all that big and we certainly aren’t tough. Guys like Martin and Mayfield could have pulverized our guys in a fight, we don’t have anybody to stand up to them. The Isles are built to play a physical game and a speed game and they have big wingers to jam the net and are defensively sound. They also have two high end prospects coming next year Dobson and Wahlstrom., so they are gonna be a problem for us..we have good defense and goaltending, Meyers and Sanheim need to gain some strength , and they are capable of creating good scoring chances and moving the puck, we need a replacement for Braun, our defense is pretty set, the offense is where the problems are. We need some speed/skill and some big wingers who can score in front. We have two big scoring wingers in Ratcliffe and Allison, but I highly doubt if we can count on them to be ready for next season. Frost and Patrick are question marks, other than that , I don’t see any additional offense coming unless the Swedish kid we signed turns out to be a Ringer. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said: And how do you plan on obtaining said player?? I keep hearing the Flyers supposedly good players won't fetch s.hit from a hobo's hat... ...we're stuck with them or need to keep them because noone would want them so I can't see how you are going to get this dynamic player? Abduct him? It's going to take some saavy for sure. Look for a good hockey trade, Ghost and stuff for team x's young fast kid. Or, Morgan Frost proves to be our Barzal maybe Patrick shows why he was 1a/b his draft year. Our young guys are still pretty damn young. I don't think they're finished products. Farabee is going to be a load when he gets his man weight. O'Brien could turn into something, he's fast...our organization isn't bereft of talent either. A thing we're seeing in the league is talent doesn't have an age limit, guys could step in and be good, then get better. Edited September 9, 2020 by mojo1917 Found tweet that provides hope 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonJeremy Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 36 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: It's going to take some saavy for sure. Look for a good hockey trade, Ghost and stuff for team x's young fast kid. Or, Morgan Frost proves to be our Barzal maybe Patrick shows why he was 1a/b his draft year. Our young guys are still pretty damn young. Our third and fourth lines are not really a problem, it’s our top two lines that are the problem. 2/3 of our top line are 32 years old and will not be getting better in the upcoming years. This Johnny Appleseed is getting excited about a fourth line, wow maybe I will get season tickets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 (edited) 46 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: Look for a good hockey trade, Ghost and stuff for team x's young fast kid. Might take a Sanaheim instead but Travis, JVR, and a 3 for Laine? It has been mentioned Laine's been working on a 200 foot game. Alternatively, Ghost & JVR (retain $2M?) for Ehlers may work? Edited September 9, 2020 by radoran 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyClarkeFan16 Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 1 hour ago, RonJeremy said: Yes , they could be a thorn in our side for a few years , they have us beat in the speed, skill, size and toughness.. Back in the day we could use our size and toughness and sheer will and tenacity to sometimes beat a more skilled team. We would outhit and out work the other teams. These days we don’t really have an identity . We aren’t fast or highly skilled, we aren’t all that big and we certainly aren’t tough. Guys like Martin and Mayfield could have pulverized our guys in a fight, we don’t have anybody to stand up to them. The Isles are built to play a physical game and a speed game and they have big wingers to jam the net and are defensively sound. They also have two high end prospects coming next year Dobson and Wahlstrom., so they are gonna be a problem for us..we have good defense and goaltending, Meyers and Sanheim need to gain some strength , and they are capable of creating good scoring chances and moving the puck, we need a replacement for Braun, our defense is pretty set, the offense is where the problems are. We need some speed/skill and some big wingers who can score in front. We have two big scoring wingers in Ratcliffe and Allison, but I highly doubt if we can count on them to be ready for next season. Frost and Patrick are question marks, other than that , I don’t see any additional offense coming unless the Swedish kid we signed turns out to be a Ringer. Frost isn't a question mark. The guy has the talent and the skill. The problem is that he was only playing 8 to 10 minutes a night instead of starting in Lehigh Valley where he could have been dominant and then ready for 2020-2021. That's on Fletcher. And please don't talk about 'size' being an issue. Brayden Point is 5'10, 165 pounds (2 inches smaller and 20 pounds lighter than Frost) and he doesn't seem to have a problem adjusting to the pro game. The problem is that the Flyers play a ****** trap system that doesn't utilize the talents of the players they have. Never have I seen an organization try to fit players into a system that doesn't work with the talent they have. It's borderline mental retardation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 2 hours ago, RonJeremy said: Our third and fourth lines are not really a problem, it’s our top two lines that are the problem. 2/3 of our top line are 32 years old and will not be getting better in the upcoming years. This Johnny Appleseed is getting excited about a fourth line, wow maybe I will get season tickets. You're always talking about toughness. Well in today's NHL this is how toughness gets on a roster. These guys are hard to play against. All 3 dudes can shoot some too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 2 hours ago, radoran said: Might take a Sanaheim instead but Travis, JVR, and a 3 for Laine? It has been mentioned Laine's been working on a 200 foot game. Alternatively, Ghost & JVR (retain $2M?) for Ehlers may work? Been talking about this with OR and maybe some guys on Twitter. Would you do it? Less assets with Sanheim, I and I think the league value defenseman more, Sanheim and Morrissey that's two smooth skating cats...I don't know both are first rounders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonJeremy Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said: Frost isn't a question mark. The guy has the talent and the skill. The problem is that he was only playing 8 to 10 minutes a night instead of starting in Lehigh Valley where he could have been dominant and then ready for 2020-2021. That's on Fletcher. And please don't talk about 'size' being an issue. Brayden Point is 5'10, 165 pounds (2 inches smaller and 20 pounds lighter than Frost) and he doesn't seem to have a problem adjusting to the pro game. The problem is that the Flyers play a ****** trap system that doesn't utilize the talents of the players they have. Never have I seen an organization try to fit players into a system that doesn't work with the talent they have. It's borderline mental retardation. Frost is a question mark as to how much he can contribute , Farabee is skilled too, it doesn’t mean either of them are ready to score enough goals to make an impact. Giroux has all the talent in the world too and he did nothing. Braden Point is one guy, just because a certain small guy is successful does not mean every small guy is. The Islanders big wingers owned the front of our net and won every battle on the boards and our skinny defensemen could not move them out and their speedy skilled lines owned us. It’s all about balance , having a blend of size,speed and skill,that way you match up against anyone. We have had the same core for years and all different coaches who have come and gone, we are out of excuses and we can’t change the coaches again, it’s time to change the players. Edited September 10, 2020 by RonJeremy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonJeremy Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 13 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: You're always talking about toughness. Well in today's NHL this is how toughness gets on a roster. These guys are hard to play against. All 3 dudes can shoot some too. Toughness is not the ability to fight, it’s being mentally tough and tenacious and having the strength and determination to win the battles on the boards and in front. We had no line that came close to the Barzal line when it came to speed and offensive skills, so we were not gonna out skate them. We couldn’t play a physical game either , we don’t have enough size and strength , their guys outhit us and outmuscled us all over the ice. When a team has a couple of big strong players who go out and play hard and finish their checks , it makes everyone on the team play bigger . Our so called leaders withered and died , so if they didn’t show up, how does that inspire the younger guys to step up their game? We do not have a balanced team. Im sorry if I can’t get excited over a fourth line, having a great fourth line is not winning us a Cup, unless the first three lines are good. I am more concerned on how we are going to replace the diminishing production of Giroux, Voracek and JVR. Pit lick was our best forward in the playoffs, that is pretty sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 Another slap in the face... Vigneault finished as the runner-up for the Jack Adams Award. Bruins head coach Bruce Cassidy earned the honor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 48 minutes ago, RonJeremy said: Toughness is not the ability to fight, it’s being mentally tough and tenacious and having the strength and determination to win the battles on the boards and in front. We had no line that came close to the Barzal line when it came to speed and offensive skills, so we were not gonna out skate them. We couldn’t play a physical game either , we don’t have enough size and strength , their guys outhit us and outmuscled us all over the ice. When a team has a couple of big strong players who go out and play hard and finish their checks , it makes everyone on the team play bigger . Our so called leaders withered and died , so if they didn’t show up, how does that inspire the younger guys to step up their game? We do not have a balanced team. Im sorry if I can’t get excited over a fourth line, having a great fourth line is not winning us a Cup, unless the first three lines are good. I am more concerned on how we are going to replace the diminishing production of Giroux, Voracek and JVR. Pit lick was our best forward in the playoffs, that is pretty sad. This is all fine & not untrue. I wasn't talking about fighting- those young Flyer players can skate and hit. They play the game you like, they might be able to b skate with a Barzal line as well. The game you like is the 4th line guy's game. The guys you liked have been out of the league for 25 years (as players). That Rock Tochett player is a unicorn today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 10 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: Another slap in the face... Vigneault finished as the runner-up for the Jack Adams Award. Bruins head coach Bruce Cassidy earned the honor. Give Cassidy Tort's team and they don't make the playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howie58 Posted September 10, 2020 Author Share Posted September 10, 2020 Here is one of the best takes I've seen on our forward corps in the playoffs. It does not make for pleasant reading: https://sports.yahoo.com/m/c67bb618-f8c1-36b9-95b3-136bc704029b/the-flyers'-balanced-forward.html We did not drive play and it was across all four lines, which was strange given our apparent balance. We looked like we were being run through. I hope things pan out for our youngins but nothing is certain. As this article points out, our under-performance could be the result of many factors, including coaching. That said, we did not drive play. I suspect this roster will keep us in the upper ranks of mediocrity, but it will not be elite. It has a tough time winning its first playoff series in eight years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonJeremy Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 9 hours ago, mojo1917 said: This is all fine & not untrue. I wasn't talking about fighting- those young Flyer players can skate and hit. They play the game you like, they might be able to b skate with a Barzal line as well. The game you like is the 4th line guy's game. The guys you liked have been out of the league for 25 years (as players). That Rock Tochett player is a unicorn today. Yes Tocchet is a unicorn today, but there are still a handful of skilled rugged guys out there like the Tkachuk brothers for example. We still face the problem that JVR, Giroux and Jake are all 32-33 years old and how the hell are we gonna replace their diminishing offense. Now that we are a decent team picking later in the draft it’s gonna be even harder to find high end players and if we do, they are three years away from helping us. We have to hope Frost and Patrick turn into legit top line players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 22 minutes ago, RonJeremy said: We still face the problem that JVR, Giroux and Jake are all 32-33 years old and how the hell are we gonna replace their diminishing offense. Too me it looks like the only way for that to happen is to trade from the pool of assets they have acquired like a Sanheim, Zamula, York or Sandstrom type...and for the record I am not saying to move those guys only providing an example. But you will have to move assets like that to possibly get a forward which you seek. Depending on how good they are projected to be you could add assets to it as well. It's on Chuckles to get together with his scouts and decide if or who they would target if they want to go that route. The draft in October is a great place to start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyClarkeFan16 Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 13 hours ago, RonJeremy said: Our third and fourth lines are not really a problem, it’s our top two lines that are the problem. 2/3 of our top line are 32 years old and will not be getting better in the upcoming years. This Johnny Appleseed is getting excited about a fourth line, wow maybe I will get season tickets. Alexander Appleyard is one of the most intelligent and credible posters with regards to everything Flyers related. He also knows the European leagues inside out. He's an invaluable resource. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, RonJeremy said: Tkachuk brothers Those guys would lead the universe in PIMs wearing our sweater. Edited September 10, 2020 by mojo1917 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 16 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said: Alexander Appleyard is one of the most intelligent and credible posters with regards to everything Flyers related. He also knows the European leagues inside out. He's an invaluable resource. And I agree with those comments he made about those three. For now I can envision them being the perfect 3rd line you don't want to play against. All the Flyers need to do is trim some dead weight and make room for them. I expect this next camp preseason you will see a few kids playing very hard to try and prove themselves. I expect Frost and Farabee to hit the gym hard this offseason and do what it takes to hold onto their places. I can see Grant, Thompson, Pitlick as well as Braun not being brought back. I can see either Ghost or Hagg shopped too. As well as the 3 already mentioned already. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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