Has Tortorella's shelf life expired?

[yave1964]

Let me start this by saying that I am a John tortorella fan-period. I hate the boring cookie cutter cliche ridden answers tou get from 99 percent of the players and coaches in the game. If not a breath of fresh air, he is at least a breath of vitriol who wears his heart on his sleeve. He has done more to make the Jackets relevant than all coaches in franchise history combined. Al that said....

 

A few years ago, he manned the helm when they upset the Lightning in a 4 game sweep for the organizations first ever playoff series win. And at the end of the season Bobrovsky, Panarin, Dzingel and everyone else who could get away did,. Last year the depleted team fought all year long, made the playoffs, stunned the much more talented Leafs efore bowing out to the Bolts. It was probably his finest job of coaching ever, yeah i know he won a cup in Tampa and made a finals with the Rangers but last years CBJ was much more sows ear than silk purse.

 

  Now, PLD their brilliant 22 year old two way center wants out, and newly added Domi is already feuding with Torts. Dubois has requested a trade. Tortorella seems to have lost the room.

 

 Every year the hockey news has a player poll that they do, hardest shot, toughest goalie on a breakway, fluff stuff like that, but here is the one that always cracks. me up. It is the first thing i look at every time. Most popular coach: always Tortorella. Least popular coach: always Tortorella. In other words, people have clear thoughts on him, they either love him and would run througha wall for him or they loath him and would gladly put a pillow over his face while he is sleeping.

  This is hard for me, it really is, i think he has made the Jackets relevant but with Panarain, Duchene, Dzingel and Bob all gone, with PLD wanting to get away from him, with Domi already turning into his whipping boy (he nailed Domi to the bench for most of the third period opening night and refused to say why after the game) I think it is about time to move on. Another one that comes to mind, for several years he played mind games with Sonny Milano, sending him up and down, playing him first line one night giving him eight minutes on the 4th line the next followed by a healthy scratch. He forced him out of town to Anaheim for no return and now Milano is playing wing on the top line. Duclair is another one he was ripped, Torts said he was the least coachable player he ever had and he was donated to the Senators where he made the All Star team last year.

 

  As a rule I almost always side with the coaches in these situations, I remember Hitch having trouble with Brassard and Voracek when they were kids, the GM fired Hitch, brought in a players coach who was unable to get more out of them than Hitch had and soon both were donated elsewhere. Sometimes a coach becomes bigger than his team and when he leaves it sets them back. 

 

  It is time. Damn I didnt want to type that but Torts has indeed outlived his usefulness in Columbus, it is time to turn the page and see if they can work things out with Dubois.

[radoran]

I don't think the issue in Columbus is Tortorella. The issue in Columbus is Columbus. It's in the middle of Ohio. There are far more attractive destinations for your 20-something millionaire athletes.

 

Bobrovsky went to Miami. Panarin went to New York. Dzingel and Duchene were there for cups of coffee.

 

Essentially, I don't know that PLD would want to stay in Columbus even if Tortorella wasn't there.

[yave1964]

8 minutes ago, radoran said:

I don't think the issue in Columbus is Tortorella. The issue in Columbus is Columbus. It's in the middle of Ohio. There are far more attractive destinations for your 20-something millionaire athletes.

 

Bobrovsky went to Miami. Panarin went to New York. Dzingel and Duchene were there for cups of coffee.

 

Essentially, I don't know that PLD would want to stay in Columbus even if Tortorella wasn't there.

I hate that but there is truth in what you say just like players detested playing in Quebec (Brent Ashton is one who I remember simply loathing it there) or Marian Hossa hating Ottawa, 

  I live in central Ohio, a bit less than an hour north of Columbus and admit to a chip on my shoulder whenever i hear about players not wanting to play there. But i witnessed it this offseason, the Jackets had money to burn and one after another all the free agents snubbed Columbus leaving them with money and nowhere to spend it. Hoffman was offered more money, he chose St. Louis. granlund, the same rhing and he chose to remain a Pred. Are you telling me that Nashville or St. Louis are prime locations where you would take less money to play instead of Columbus? 

  My wife is a HUGE Jacket fan, she has went from a full season ticket holder to a 20 game and down last year to an eight game package as more and more players choose to leave and she gets more frustrated. She loves Torts, we talked about it last night with PLD and she said it might be time for Torts to go which is a huge thing for her to say. I dont know, Columbus is no smaller than a good third of the other markets but it seems they may never have the right combo to sustain long term success.

[WordsOfWisdom]

33 minutes ago, radoran said:

I don't think the issue in Columbus is Tortorella. The issue in Columbus is Columbus. It's in the middle of Ohio. There are far more attractive destinations for your 20-something millionaire athletes.

 

Bobrovsky went to Miami. Panarin went to New York. Dzingel and Duchene were there for cups of coffee.

 

Essentially, I don't know that PLD would want to stay in Columbus even if Tortorella wasn't there.

 

You mean there's actually a US-based city that players piss and moan and complain about playing in?  

[WordsOfWisdom]

18 minutes ago, yave1964 said:

I hate that but there is truth in what you say just like players detested playing in Quebec (Brent Ashton is one who I remember simply loathing it there) or Marian Hossa hating Ottawa, 

 

I think someone at the league needs to put that issue to bed once and for all.  And I have the solution:

 

You write it into the contract rules that teams will BID for a player's services..... and the HIGHEST BID always wins, no matter the team's location. A player will NOT be able to decline a team's offer to play elsewhere (if they wish to remain in the NHL).  It's go to the highest bidder in the NHL or play in the KHL. Bon voyage!  

 

Someone needs to put their foot down because this is an unfair advantage to basically THREE destinations: New York, LA, and Miami. The entire league can't play in those locations and fans in other cities (Quebec, Columbus, Winnipeg, or wherever) deserve better. 

 

The NHL is a PRODUCT and its CUSTOMERS are in those 31 cities. The players need to recognize who is paying their salary and play there. 

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by WordsOfWisdom

[JR Ewing]

6 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

I think someone at the league needs to put that issue to bed once and for all.  And I have the solution:

 

You write it into the contract rules that teams will BID for a player's services..... and the HIGHEST BID always wins, no matter the team's location. A player will NOT be able to decline a team's offer to play elsewhere (if they wish to remain in the NHL).  It's go to the highest bidder in the NHL or play in the KHL. Bon voyage!  

 

Someone needs to put their foot down because this is an unfair advantage to basically THREE destinations: New York, LA, and Miami. The entire league can't play in those locations and fans in other cities (Quebec, Columbus, Winnipeg, or wherever) deserve better. 

 

The NHL is a PRODUCT and its CUSTOMERS are in those 31 cities. The players need to recognize who is paying their salary and play there. 

 

 

You seem like a man who would have been so much happier if he were born about 80ish years ago.

[WordsOfWisdom]

9 minutes ago, JR Ewing said:

 

You seem like a man who would have been so much happier if he were born about 80ish years ago.

 

What gives you that impression?  

 

I'm just good at fixing problems. 

 

Now, some people (everyone but me) will say that the players have free choice, blah blah blah, play where you want, blah blah blah, it's "not fair" to specify where they have to play, those poor players blah blah blah, such a hard life blah blah blah......  Then just put all 31 teams in New York until the players want to play somewhere else. If they prefer Miami, move all 31 teams to Miami. Whatever makes the players happy, and kill off all the fans everywhere else right?  Who needs them!   

 

The salary cap prevents the richest teams (Toronto) from buying a Stanley Cup, so players are going to be spread around anyway in a cap-based league. This just makes sure that EVERY franchise is viable where it is. If the Jets offer $10 million dollars to player X, he shouldn't be going to the New York Rangers for $1 million dollars because he likes the city of New York.  That is circumventing the cap. 

 

EDIT: To expand on that point, the NHL would need to LOWER the salary cap for all the most "desirable" NHL locations and RAISE the cap for all the cities where players don't want to play. So Winnipeg would have say a $150 million cap and the NY Rangers would have a $40 million cap. That way the Jets can overpay for every player they get (with full revenue sharing money of course because the Rangers will be funding that lol) and then they'll "twist the arm" of someone to play in Winnipeg for $25 mil per season when the Rangers can't offer more than say $5 mil per season. Eventually the gap will get so stupidly large that the players will go to Winnipeg. 

Edited January 19, 2021 by WordsOfWisdom

[radoran]

4 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

You write it into the contract rules that teams will BID for a player's services..... and the HIGHEST BID always wins, no matter the team's location. A player will NOT be able to decline a team's offer to play elsewhere (if they wish to remain in the NHL).  It's go to the highest bidder in the NHL or play in the KHL. Bon voyage!  

 

The NHLPA called. It was hard to understand what they were saying because they were apparently rolling on the floor while laughing their asses off.

 

[radoran]

23 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

You mean there's actually a US-based city that players piss and moan and complain about playing in?  

 

Yes. I mean that. Exactly.

 

See, also: Buffalo, Phoenix/Glenside, Charlotte, Minneapolis...

[radoran]

25 minutes ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

If the Jets offer $10 million dollars to player X, he shouldn't be going to the New York Rangers for $1 million dollars because he likes the city of New York.  That is circumventing the cap. 

 

That literally never happens. Has never happened. Will never happen. No player is taking a 90% pay cut to play in a specific market (caveat: 35+ players who are looking to keep their family stable with a longtime team and even then you have Patrick Marleau and Joe Thornton leaving San Jose).

 

But if Player A is offered $8.5M/7 from undesirable team B and $8M/7 from major market team C, it's not unreasonable, nor is it "circumvention" for the player to choose Team C.

 

In many cases it is because the ancillary revenue available to players through sponsorships in major markets is simply going to dwarf what they could get in smaller markets.

[radoran]

1 hour ago, yave1964 said:

I live in central Ohio, a bit less than an hour north of Columbus and admit to a chip on my shoulder whenever i hear about players not wanting to play there. But i witnessed it this offseason, the Jackets had money to burn and one after another all the free agents snubbed Columbus leaving them with money and nowhere to spend it. Hoffman was offered more money, he chose St. Louis. granlund, the same rhing and he chose to remain a Pred. Are you telling me that Nashville or St. Louis are prime locations where you would take less money to play instead of Columbus? 

 

So, I know Buffalonians share your chip.

 

St. Louis is a year removed from a Cup win and Nashville has, shall we say, a little more of a nightlife than Columbus?

 

I can get why players would go there.

 

The Jackets aren't exactly swimming with money - $1.5M below the cap according to capfriendly.

 

I don't think it's impossible for CBJ to compete for free agents. But it's obviously not the #1 destination. Showing success - surprising Tampa and Tronno for example - is a good place to start.

 

Maybe PLD is just upset that the OSU campus isn't packed with coeds?

 

[WordsOfWisdom]

41 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

The NHLPA called. It was hard to understand what they were saying because they were apparently rolling on the floor while laughing their asses off.

 

 

80 years ago we didn't have no stinkin' NHLPA.  lol  

[pilldoc]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

Maybe PLD is just upset that the OSU campus isn't packed with coeds?

Maybe he needs to connect with Jeff Carter .... 

[lynxrattle]

Torts probably needs to go, unfortunately. But looking at it from another perspective:

 

1. Columbus is what it is.

2. Star players are going to keep on pining for bigger markets.

3. The only players that will be loyal to Columbus are the ones who keep competing, even when the odds are against them and the circumstances unpleasant - those players won't quit, ever.

4. Torts never quits, even when he should.

5. Can you imagine a team full of players who like Torts? That would be pure, bottled grit. The stink alone would make weaker teams faint.

 

Torts is the best option if one accepts the fact that Columbus is a lousy place for a NHL team.

[WordsOfWisdom]

43 minutes ago, lynxrattle said:

1. Columbus is what it is.

2. Star players are going to keep on pining for bigger markets.

 

But if you leave it that way you'll have a lame duck franchise that never wins (like Winnipeg for example). 

 

The whole point of the salary cap was to give these teams a chance.  Now it's the players who are instituting their own "player cap" by not playing there.

 

[lynxrattle]

10 hours ago, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

But if you leave it that way you'll have a lame duck franchise that never wins (like Winnipeg for example). 

 

The whole point of the salary cap was to give these teams a chance.  Now it's the players who are instituting their own "player cap" by not playing there.

 

You're right and that is why I like your ideas.

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

John Tortorella is like a dairy product.

He is good for you, makes you strong, has a variety of uses in good solid recipes, makes SOME people sick because they might be lactose intolerant.......AND, he will eventually expire and sour so you best use it in your recipes sooner than later...and in this case, the end recipe result is a Stanley Cup.

So, if the end goal isn't met, and that dairy product is starting to sour, and too many people (players) are starting to look for fresher ingredients, then it just might be time to go grocery shopping for something with a later expiration date.

I like Torts. Always have. And yes, part of it is bias because he was, after all, the guy behind the bench that helped bring the first ever Stanley Cup to the state of Florida....raising the Lightning from laughing stock of the league to champs.
Torts' no-nonsense approach should be required studying for ANYONE looking to be a good head coach and getting the most of your players.

But all that toughness comes at a price and when the team doesn't see the expected results, and the coach has used up his arsenal ways to get players to play to their potential, he becomes an albatross. 
Especially in this day and age of political correctness, being "kind" to those who play under you, and media scrutiny looking to pin anything and everything to the "Loud mouthed coach who can't seem to win it all".........whether it is fair or not to do so.

Torts has become a "fix it" coach. A guy owners bring in to straighten out a %$@!ed up locker room. A drill sergeant type to whip some candy arsed players into NHL caliber shape.
But he needs to get his team to win because eventually, the milk will sour, and players, media, owners...whomever...will no longer be in positions to respond positively to an abrasive coach's methods.

Yes. 
Might be time for the Blue Jackets to get themselves a new head coach with a new direction.
But they better not complain if they go back to being that type of team others beat on while they figure out how to win again.

[yave1964]

@TropicalFruitGirl26

 

I love Tortz, I love anyone who doesnt give cookie cutter replies, who tells it like it is. I think he has made Columbus a viable NHL franchise after years of being a nothing team, like the Panthers and the Coyotes. And yes, when/if he goes they might slip as you suggested as they search for a new identity as he is stamped all over them.

BUT.

I love your milk analogy, it suits him perfect and he has probably outlived his shelf life though never let my wife know i said that, lol as she has a bit of a middle aged woman crush on him. Panarin, bob, Dzingel, Duchene, Duclair, and more have left, Dubois is on his way out at 22 years old. YES a small market may have something to do with it but at some point you have to think maybe the coach is the reason.

  There are players such as Foligno, Dubinsky, Seth Jones, Boone Jenner who would run through a wall for him and would want to play for him more than any coach in the game. The problem is there are more in the room who he is losing then keeping and I have watched all four of their games to start the year, they truly dont look the same. The fire isnt there as it was in years past.

Time to move on which sucks because i truly do like him.

[lynxrattle]

The next time I see Torts, I'll see this:

[lynxrattle]

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/report-john-tortorella-informs-blue-jackets-wont-return-next-season/

 

Well. The expiration date came after all. It is going to be interesting to see post-Torts CBJ.

[Puck_Pun]

I heard about this in a sharks group with the members split on whether he'd be a good idea to bring to SJ. Honestly I'd be open to it, he'll be an improvement. Hell, a copy of Football: it's a Funny Old Game would be a step up

[lynxrattle]

Torts would be perfect for publicity. The fans would love to argue about him, for and against.

 

Thinking about the Jackets, I'd say the next coach for them should have results if Kekalainen wants to keep his job. It does not look good for him if Wennberg scores hat tricks for FLA, Laine never scores, and nobody wants to stay in Columbus, and a fellow Finn in Koivu comes and leaves after a few games. People might began to wonder if he's got a bias for Finns.

[J0e Th0rnton]

On 1/19/2021 at 5:48 PM, WordsOfWisdom said:

 

What gives you that impression?  

 

I'm just good at fixing problems. 

 

Now, some people (everyone but me) will say that the players have free choice, blah blah blah, play where you want, blah blah blah, it's "not fair" to specify where they have to play, those poor players blah blah blah, such a hard life blah blah blah......  Then just put all 31 teams in New York until the players want to play somewhere else. If they prefer Miami, move all 31 teams to Miami. Whatever makes the players happy, and kill off all the fans everywhere else right?  Who needs them!   

 

The salary cap prevents the richest teams (Toronto) from buying a Stanley Cup, so players are going to be spread around anyway in a cap-based league. This just makes sure that EVERY franchise is viable where it is. If the Jets offer $10 million dollars to player X, he shouldn't be going to the New York Rangers for $1 million dollars because he likes the city of New York.  That is circumventing the cap. 

 

EDIT: To expand on that point, the NHL would need to LOWER the salary cap for all the most "desirable" NHL locations and RAISE the cap for all the cities where players don't want to play. So Winnipeg would have say a $150 million cap and the NY Rangers would have a $40 million cap. That way the Jets can overpay for every player they get (with full revenue sharing money of course because the Rangers will be funding that lol) and then they'll "twist the arm" of someone to play in Winnipeg for $25 mil per season when the Rangers can't offer more than say $5 mil per season. Eventually the gap will get so stupidly large that the players will go to Winnipeg. 

Lol. Dear players who are in a union so you have some semblance of control over your life. Someone on a forum suggested to remove your right to seek employment in a living area or even country of your choice and seeks to post you like a its a military assignment.

 

 

[J0e Th0rnton]

3 hours ago, Puck_Pun said:

I heard about this in a sharks group with the members split on whether he'd be a good idea to bring to SJ. Honestly I'd be open to it, he'll be an improvement. Hell, a copy of Football: it's a Funny Old Game would be a step up

Anything would be an improvement over Bob boughner

[WordsOfWisdom]

9 hours ago, J0e Th0rnton said:

Lol. Dear players who are in a union so you have some semblance of control over your life. Someone on a forum suggested to remove your right to seek employment in a living area or even country of your choice and seeks to post you like a its a military assignment.

 

 

 

Whoa whoa whoa!  The players are employed by the NHL. If I'm employed by Microsoft and their office is located in Seattle, that's where I have to work. Even if Microsoft had an office in Miami, I can't demand to work out of the Miami office. I have to work where they tell me to work.

 

The NHL is like a company with 31 office locations and lots of travel required between those locations. It's not at all unreasonable to say that players must go to the highest bidder (which in this case means working out of the office location where the company tells you to work). The other option is to quit. Nobody is forced to play in the NHL. Players can always find another job.