Flyers are the only team in the division without an elite game breaking player

[flyer4ever]

The 2014 Kings played big boy hockey. You had to earn every inch of ice against them. They had a lot of nasty and a lot of leadership. The west final against the Hawks was epic, an all time great series.

Doughty and Quick were stars, and they had some guys who got better in the playoffs, no ghosts.

[FD19372]

4 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Well they need to take cues from the Sharks.

 

They got rid of Pavelski, Marleau, Thornton and the Flyers bum Braun and maybe some others I am forgetting.

 

When a team keeps underachieving it is time to find other players and you know try something new. And they did it not long after coming off a Stanley Cup finals.

 

The Flyers need to follow suit.

 

They did it with Simmer now keep trimming.

My two thoughts on that are...the franchise isn't willing to go into a complete "suck mode" for one year...although it appears we're in one. The other is ...I don't trust the ...clears throat..."hockey people" that own and manage the team, to make the right and frankly competent, decisions. They are just counting the days until the corporate and "brainwashed..I'll be there at the game, no matter what", come back. As far as the Sharks go, they may have waited a year too long to get rid of Marleau and Thornton. J0e would be the expert on that.

[FD19372]

8 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

The 2014 Kings played big boy hockey. You had to earn every inch of ice against them. They had a lot of nasty and a lot of leadership. The west final against the Hawks was epic, an all time great series.

Doughty and Quick were stars, and they had some guys who got better in the playoffs, no ghosts.

Their top 4 was TREMENDOUS. Doughty, Martinez, Muzzin and Voynov. We don't have that. They also had guys like Kopitar, Brown, Toffoli, Stoll, Richards, Nolan and King that were never afraid to throw a hard check..on offense. They played a hard, heavy game. We don't have that, either.

Edited January 24, 2021 by FD19372

[OccamsRazor]

3 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

As far as the Sharks go, they may have waited a year too long to get rid of Marleau and Thornton. J0e would be the expert on that.

 

Yes they did.

 

Let's not do the same.

 

I would have pick up some salary on the table even.

 

It is time to break up the band.

 

If not now then when?

 

And what else does it take I mean do they have to just actually hit rock bottom before they will?

 

 

If so it may never happen they can still barely get by with some wins here and there but they have to want more than barely getting by.

 

Not sure they want more. Status quo.

[FD19372]

5 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

Their top 4 was TREMENDOUS. Doughty, Martinez, Muzzin and Voynov. We don't have that. They also had guys like Kopitar, Brown, Toffoli, Stoll, Richards, Nolan and King that were never afraid to throw a hard check..on offense. They played a hard, heavy game. We don't have that, either.

They had a great goalie like we do, that the organization is allowing to get killed. The Kings didn't do that to Quick.

[Poconono]

On 1/23/2021 at 1:35 PM, RonJeremy said:

We are the only team in the division without a true superstar, a game changer who is a threat every time he is on the ice. We have good players, but we lack a guy who dominates when he is on the ice.  The kind of guy who the other team fears and who skates circles around the opposition. Boston has Pastranuk, Isles have Barzal, Rangers have Panarin, Caps have Ovechkin, Pittsburgh has Cindy, Buffalo has Eichel, The Devils have a potential superstar , Hughes...  if you took any of those guys and put them on the Flyers imagine how much better we would be. 

Every time I've said this on this forum I've been attacked.  The fanboys keep telling me that TK is elite and that Frost is the next coming of Gretzky.

[Podein25]

6 minutes ago, Poconono said:

Every time I've said this on this forum I've been attacked.  The fanboys keep telling me that TK is elite and that Frost is the next coming of Gretzky.

 

Settle down there bucko

[Cheesesteak]

15 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

So what you're saying is, pro-rated, we won the cup!

ipso-facto

[elmatus]

12 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

Nobody wants to accept it but Giroux is finished as the go to guy on the Flyers.

 

I think many of us have accepted he's not that same guy anymore. 

 

Don't get me wrong, he's still a solid player and will likely put up some ~80pts again this season. That's clearly nothing to scoff at. But no, he's not the elite caliber guy that's being discussed in this thread. I've mentioned this elsewhere, but Giroux is possibly the best surprise this franchise has ever drafted. That's not nothing, but he's not the kind of player at this point in his career that other teams are specifically forced to plan around.

 

As far as where we might get that elusive elite kind of guy, it's pretty remarkably difficult to land those guys in a trade. That said, I'm still not convinced Laine and Torts can work together. That may remain a possibility in the near future. Is Laine enough? I don't know, but it certainly wouldn't hurt.

 

The one thing I do think you're off about is Provorov though. He is absolutely a star dman, and he's still young. He would be the top dog on tons of teams right now. We're very lucky he's wearing our colours.

[flyercanuck]

12 hours ago, Poconono said:

Every time I've said this on this forum I've been attacked.  The fanboys keep telling me that TK is elite and that Frost is the next coming of Gretzky.

 

 I can't say I've seen anyone mention Morgan Frost being anywhere near Giroux, let alone Gretzky. Maybe someone said hopes he's our next Giroux? Cetainly not Gretzky.

 

Last year Konecny outscored Tavares/Couturier/Gaudreau/Backstrom/Kuznetsov/Hall. He was right there with  Barkov/Point/Pettersson/Ovechkin etc. Right now he's tied with Crosby/Kane/Eichel/Rantanen/Backstrom  I don't know if that makes him "elite" but I could see how some could see it that way. I don't see him as a "jump on my back, I'll carry the team" player, but he's a damn good piece.

 

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by flyercanuck

[RonJeremy]

9 hours ago, elmatus said:

 

I think many of us have accepted he's not that same guy anymore. 

 

Don't get me wrong, he's still a solid player and will likely put up some ~80pts again this season. That's clearly nothing to scoff at. But no, he's not the elite caliber guy that's being discussed in this thread. I've mentioned this elsewhere, but Giroux is possibly the best surprise this franchise has ever drafted. That's not nothing, but he's not the kind of player at this point in his career that other teams are specifically forced to plan around.

 

As far as where we might get that elusive elite kind of guy, it's pretty remarkably difficult to land those guys in a trade. That said, I'm still not convinced Laine and Torts can work together. That may remain a possibility in the near future. Is Laine enough? I don't know, but it certainly wouldn't hurt.

 

The one thing I do think you're off about is Provorov though. He is absolutely a star dman, and he's still young. He would be the top dog on tons of teams right now. We're very lucky he's wearing our colours.

I love Provorov and he is a great all around defensemen. He is great but when I said he wasn't a star my thought was he hasn't reached his peak yet, he hasn't hit Norris trophy level yet. I think he is being held back by not having a reliable defense partner and always having to cover for the other guys mistakes. 

[OccamsRazor]

9 hours ago, elmatus said:

Don't get me wrong, he's still a solid player and will likely put up some ~80pts again this season.

 

No stop lying to yourself. He’s done.

 

If you 60 out of him again i'll take it.

 

Guy should be no more than the 3rd line.

 

He is a shell of his former self.

 

It's time to let him go...but you're stuck with him and that contract.

 

Maybe his last year we get lucky and trade him close to his home in Ottawa....

[OccamsRazor]

9 hours ago, elmatus said:

As far as where we might get that elusive elite kind of guy, it's pretty remarkably difficult to land those guys in a trade.

 

Not really we just saw one and Panarin off the top of my head is one.

 

Mika Zibanejad is one.

 

Ryan O'Reilly is one.

 

And if you look there are more you just have to find the guy you want and give up the assets for him.

 

You have to give to get.

 

 

 

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

I think people are making a big deal out of nothing. The idea that there isn't any 'game breakers' or 'elite' level players in Philadelphia is laughable. Is there a generational type player in the lineup? No. Those are a rarity. That's the reality of it. Not many teams in the league have those generational players. However, there are several game breakers and elite level players in the Flyers lineup.

 

Let's start with the forwards. We all know about Couturier's play. We know he's an elite two-way center. We know Konecny is a goal scorer and in the future seasons, 30 to 35 a year with the odd season of 40 to 45 will be on the mark. We know that Lindblom is a solid presence around the net and can be used to free lanes for guys like Konecny. Nolan Patrick looks like he might start hitting that draft pedigree that was expected of him. Farabee looks to be taking his game to another level. 

 

As for the defense, everything begins with Provorov. He's just a minute munching defenseman who can play in all situations. He might not be a power play quarterback, but he's not an idiot there either. You know you're going to get 10 to 15 goals and 30 to 35 assists from Provorov. You're also going to get elite defensive play out of him. If Myers can get over his injury issues, you've got a right handed defenseman with elite upside. Sanheim, to me, is the biggest disappointment of the bunch. So many tools to him. If he even had a quarter of Provorov's brain, he'd be all world. It's insane that he simply hasn't been able to put it together. Mike Yeo is pretty good at developing defensemen and Sanheim just seems to be regressing under his watch. It's scary. 

 

Then we get to nets and we've got Hart. He can be an elite guy, but the Flyers have to be careful not to run him into the ground. The days of goalies playing 60 to 70 games a year are done and over with. Give him 50 to 55 starts a year and then use your back up for the remainders. No back to back nights. 

 

My biggest concern right now is coaching. This is a club that has an incredible amount of depth. However, this is an incredibly disorganized group. We're year 2 into Vigneault and they still look as disorganized as they have in years past. Why is the message being lost on this group and why can they not pull it together? It's not as if the Haktard is still here, although I still see lots of components of Haktard's game plan that Vigneault uses, namely the shell aka Heroes of the Hakshell, Turd Hole Power!!!! There's no need for that. It's time to get tough with the guys and it's time to make examples of veterans and let the young guys run with the team. 

 

 

[RonJeremy]

3 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

I think people are making a big deal out of nothing. The idea that there isn't any 'game breakers' or 'elite' level players in Philadelphia is laughable. Is there a generational type player in the lineup? No. Those are a rarity. That's the reality of it. Not many teams in the league have those generational players. However, there are several game breakers and elite level players in the Flyers lineup.

 

Let's start with the forwards. We all know about Couturier's play. We know he's an elite two-way center. We know Konecny is a goal scorer and in the future seasons, 30 to 35 a year with the odd season of 40 to 45 will be on the mark. We know that Lindblom is a solid presence around the net and can be used to free lanes for guys like Konecny. Nolan Patrick looks like he might start hitting that draft pedigree that was expected of him. Farabee looks to be taking his game to another level. 

 

As for the defense, everything begins with Provorov. He's just a minute munching defenseman who can play in all situations. He might not be a power play quarterback, but he's not an idiot there either. You know you're going to get 10 to 15 goals and 30 to 35 assists from Provorov. You're also going to get elite defensive play out of him. If Myers can get over his injury issues, you've got a right handed defenseman with elite upside. Sanheim, to me, is the biggest disappointment of the bunch. So many tools to him. If he even had a quarter of Provorov's brain, he'd be all world. It's insane that he simply hasn't been able to put it together. Mike Yeo is pretty good at developing defensemen and Sanheim just seems to be regressing under his watch. It's scary. 

 

Then we get to nets and we've got Hart. He can be an elite guy, but the Flyers have to be careful not to run him into the ground. The days of goalies playing 60 to 70 games a year are done and over with. Give him 50 to 55 starts a year and then use your back up for the remainders. No back to back nights. 

 

My biggest concern right now is coaching. This is a club that has an incredible amount of depth. However, this is an incredibly disorganized group. We're year 2 into Vigneault and they still look as disorganized as they have in years past. Why is the message being lost on this group and why can they not pull it together? It's not as if the Haktard is still here, although I still see lots of components of Haktard's game plan that Vigneault uses, namely the shell aka Heroes of the Hakshell, Turd Hole Power!!!! There's no need for that. It's time to get tough with the guys and it's time to make examples of veterans and let the young guys run with the team. 

 

 

This was meant regarding the forwards, everyone knows Provorov and Hart are great and Meyers has potential. Coots is very good in a blue collar style, but he is like a pickup truck. We do not have an exciting dynamic goal scorer/skater who is  the kind of player who makes his line mates better and who other teams fear because they can’t stop him. Konecny, Patrick, Lindblom...You are basing everything on potential. Do you recall in the playoffs every time Barzal’s line was on the ice they spent the entire shift in our zone and dominated, we couldn’t get the puck away from their guys and it looked like they were on a PP. When was the last time we had a line or even one player like that ? I’m waiting........

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by RonJeremy

[OccamsRazor]

38 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

When was the last time we had a line or even one player like that ?

 

Gagne Forsberg and Knuble??

[jammer2]

3 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

This was meant regarding the forwards, everyone knows Provorov and Hart are great and Meyers has potential. Coots is very good in a blue collar style, but he is like a pickup truck. We do not have an exciting dynamic goal scorer/skater who is  the kind of player who makes his line mates better and who other teams fear because they can’t stop him. Konecny, Patrick, Lindblom...You are basing everything on potential. Do you recall in the playoffs every time Barzal’s line was on the ice they spent the entire shift in our zone and dominated, we couldn’t get the puck away from their guys and it looked like they were on a PP. When was the last time we had a line or even one player like that ? I’m waiting........

 

Agree with your basic premise, the Flyers don't have an elite gamebreaker. Might be splitting hairs here, but questioning BC on the potential of TK, Patrick while listing Hughes is as elite is very iffy. Hughes looks bigger and stronger after being ineffective as a rook last year. He probably will become a star, but right now, you're basing that on potential, the very thing you were arguing against. 

[FD19372]

10 minutes ago, jammer2 said:

Agree with your basic premise, the Flyers don't have an elite gamebreaker. Might be splitting hairs here, but questioning BC on the potential of TK, Patrick while listing Hughes is as elite is very iffy. Hughes looks bigger and stronger after being ineffective as a rook last year. He probably will become a star, but right now, you're basing that on potential, the very thing you were arguing against. 

Wasn't that supposed to be Giroux? So much for that.

[Icechipper]

Top this list:

All-time Minnesota Wild franchise Elite Game Breakers, ranked.

1) Marion Gaborik.

2) Kirill Kiprisov.

 

 

 

 

[RonJeremy]

8 hours ago, jammer2 said:

Agree with your basic premise, the Flyers don't have an elite gamebreaker. Might be splitting hairs here, but questioning BC on the potential of TK, Patrick while listing Hughes is as elite is very iffy. Hughes looks bigger and stronger after being ineffective as a rook last year. He probably will become a star, but right now, you're basing that on potential, the very thing you were arguing against. 

I wrote that Hughes was a potential star yes, but based on his being the # 1 pick and his scouting report and his projected ceiling. None of our guys are projected to be on that level. Hopefully we get lucky and they exceed expectations . 

[RonJeremy]

7 hours ago, Icechipper said:

Top this list:

All-time Minnesota Wild franchise Elite Game Breakers, ranked.

1) Marion Gaborik.

2) Kirill Kiprisov.

 

 

 

 

The North Stars had Modano and Broten

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

12 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

This was meant regarding the forwards, everyone knows Provorov and Hart are great and Meyers has potential. Coots is very good in a blue collar style, but he is like a pickup truck. We do not have an exciting dynamic goal scorer/skater who is  the kind of player who makes his line mates better and who other teams fear because they can’t stop him. Konecny, Patrick, Lindblom...You are basing everything on potential. Do you recall in the playoffs every time Barzal’s line was on the ice they spent the entire shift in our zone and dominated, we couldn’t get the puck away from their guys and it looked like they were on a PP. When was the last time we had a line or even one player like that ? I’m waiting........

 

The playoffs were a great example of piss poor coaching and not adjusting strategy accordingly.  The isles stuck to their game plan. AV panicked and made all sorts of terrible mistakes. As well,  let's not forget that the veterans in this club (JVR, Giroux, etc....) failed to show up.  Konecny was a disappointment and I'll be the first to admit that. 

 

The Rangers had how many 'elite game brakes in their lineup and did they even qualify? What about Buffalo? What about Pittsburgh? The biggest issue I see with the Flyers is this continued reliance on guys who have been here for years and believing they're going to lead the way. The refusal to put their younger players in pairings to take over astounds me. It's time to move on from the Girouxs, the Voraceks, the JVRs and let guys like Konecny,  Farabee, Frost, etc... start taking on those roles. 

 

That also brings up another point.  This team has never done a proper rebuild. Never. They've tried all sorts of quick fixes and retools because 'Philadelphia Flyers'. If they would have taken their legitimate lumps for three to four years, they would have been better off. Instead, they get a couple of high picks and then rush things through.  The other part of the equation is the AHL club and how they're coached.  Scott Gordon doesn't even come close to running a system like Vigneault and has the young players playing fire wagon hockey.  They then get to Philadelphia and they're out of sorts.  There's no cohesion or anything like that with the big club and the kids have to learn all new terminology and systems.  It's baffling. Fix those and you've got a club and farm system that is in sync and players can step right in and not miss a beat. 

[RonJeremy]

2 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

The playoffs were a great example of piss poor coaching and not adjusting strategy accordingly.  The isles stuck to their game plan. AV panicked and made all sorts of terrible mistakes. As well,  let's not forget that the veterans in this club (JVR, Giroux, etc....) failed to show up.  Konecny was a disappointment and I'll be the first to admit that. 

 

The Rangers had how many 'elite game brakes in their lineup and did they even qualify? What about Buffalo? What about Pittsburgh? The biggest issue I see with the Flyers is this continued reliance on guys who have been here for years and believing they're going to lead the way. The refusal to put their younger players in pairings to take over astounds me. It's time to move on from the Girouxs, the Voraceks, the JVRs and let guys like Konecny,  Farabee, Frost, etc... start taking on those roles. 

 

That also brings up another point.  This team has never done a proper rebuild. Never. They've tried all sorts of quick fixes and retools because 'Philadelphia Flyers'. If they would have taken their legitimate lumps for three to four years, they would have been better off. Instead, they get a couple of high picks and then rush things through.  The other part of the equation is the AHL club and how they're coached.  Scott Gordon doesn't even come close to running a system like Vigneault and has the young players playing fire wagon hockey.  They then get to Philadelphia and they're out of sorts.  There's no cohesion or anything like that with the big club and the kids have to learn all new terminology and systems.  It's baffling. Fix those and you've got a club and farm system that is in sync and players can step right in and not miss a beat. 

I guess my whole point is. There is so much parity in the division and most of the teams are very close in overall talent but if we had a real game breaker it could put us over the top. It would be nice to have some exciting players and see some creative plays that lead to an highlight reel goal. I am tired of boring ,sloppy hockey. At least in the past, even if we didn’t have creative offensive players, we had hard hitting, great fights and players to hate like Avery and Cooke. I just find the modern day Flyers boring. Sure the other teams like Buffalo and NYR didn’t make the playoffs but they have young A list players to build around and for the fans to get excited about, we don’t. A lot of it is luck, winning the draft lottery and having elite players available when you are picking in the top of the draft or being lucky when a player like Barzal or Pastranuk are available around 14 or 15 and being smart enough to pick them. For example in 2019 we traded our pick , moved down and picked York and Brink , good picks, but will Caufield end up being an electrifying scoring machine and our guys end us as typical Flyer picks, good but not great. 

[Icechipper]

5 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

The North Stars had Modano and Broten

I'd add Bobby Smith in that franchise.

The Wild of course also had past-their-primes Dany Heatley and Alexander Daigle.    

Edited January 30, 2021 by Icechipper
Sp

[otto12]

Too soft. Lack of grit, especially on defense. Shows in the corners and along the boards. Boston has forwards who go to the tough places with skill.  Those kind are hard to come by. Flyers have none (Farabee maybe). Unless you have speedy snipers like Tampa, you need to grind for 60 min. Like the Bruins alot.