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Possible Trade: Mattias Ekholm


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3 hours ago, CoachX said:

 Patrick is all he will ever be

 

 Really? At 22 and coming off missing an entire season with migraine issues...there's no upside at all?  

 

 Come on.

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We could always put him on waivers and let Hextall take him.

No offense, but you really are taking a page out of @CoachX's NAK dislike here.   It's okay, we all have that player.   From my POV, it's not substantiated, but again, we all have that player (or players....or coaches, in my case).    I think mine is Voracek.  V could have a 6 point game and I swear to you I will complain about the stupid pass that sent the puck the other way.

Who wouldn't love to see JVR score hat tricks by the shovelful against us with the Penguins!

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1 minute ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 I guess. Though I really don't want to be part of "make Seattle as great as Vegas".

 

 Imagine this scenario...we get Ekholm, who decides to check out the FA market after a season and a bit in Philly...and Patrick turns out to be a good players for the next dozen years for the Kraken. As does who/whatever we send for them to NOT take so and so. And if it's to NOT take a Konecny, it's going to be a 1st and something good. 

 

 You guys are all looking at the doom and gloom side of Patrick and the best case scenario of Ekholm. I'm a Flyer fan...and I know that likely isn't the reality. Maybe it is, but maybe the above happens. 

 

 If the expansion draft wasn't happening, this might make more sense to me. 

 

Whew for a second there I thought you had a negative outlook on this situation...

 

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2 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Whew for a second there I thought you had a negative outlook on this situation...

 

 

 Just playing devils advocate.

 

 I mean if we want to deal away a 22 year old 2nd overall pick for a guy signed for 1 year maybe we should look at it from all angles...including what else we're going to lose because of it in an expansion draft. Don't you think?

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5 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

1 year maybe we should look at it from all angles.

 

I agree it is what we have been discussing for a few hours now here.

 

So now your turn let's hear your story on what positive can come from the trade.

 

I can't wait to hear.

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I don't know if I see this as a positive or negative outlook type situation.

 

It's complex, There are good reasons to make a move for a top 4 defensman. Eckholm is the guy mentioned, but what if there are others that require more "executiving". 

I think the team needs help there, I don't not see, heck, I even agree to a significant extent to what folks are saying about Eck and Pat. 

 

I do think @flyercanuck is doing a better job of positioning the discussion around looking for the worst case Patrick/best case Eckholm  scenario.

 

I have to think the organization sees what we're seeing, and maybe there is a better option that we're not "seeing" also. If that's the case say there's a deal in being worked on with Vegas for Theodore which Patrick and significant other assets are part of. 

 

I think there is significant risk involved with Eckholm based on all the things mentioned.

There is less risk associated with seeing if Patrick turns into something interesting this year and/or letting him develop on a prove it deal.

 

Years of Flyers executive whiplash have helped make me risk averse. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I agree it is what we have been discussing for a few hours now here.

 

So now your turn let's hear your story on what positive can come from the trade.

 

I can't wait to hear.

 

 The positive? 

 

 Ekholm leads the Flyers to 5 consecutive Stanley Cups, winning the Norris every year except one when Provorov wins it.

 

 Now, back to reality. 

 

 Just for sheetz and gigs...if you want to make a big splash start thinking what you have to give up to Seattle for them to NOT take what we don't want them to. Instead of that (say a 1st and a decent prospect) what can you get for Patrick, a 1st and a decent prospect. Cause maybe you can get a good Dman with some term. 

 

 Another option if you want Ekholm is maybe offering something like Ghost/Laughton and a 2nd, or something around that. 

 

 Again, this type of deal would be a lot easier to make without losing something else in expansion.

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13 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

Ekholm leads the Flyers to 5 consecutive Stanley Cups, winning the Norris every year except one when Provorov wins it.

 

Good job now see that wasn't so hard was it?

 

14 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

start thinking what you have to give up to Seattle for them to NOT take what we don't want them to.

 

First the results of what Ekholm brought to the team would need to be known.

 

If they go to the finals and maybe lose to say Vegas I was worth it for all the kids to gain that type of experience.

 

Especially if it cost Patrick who looks like he isn't very interested in playing from what I have seen or that he doesn't want to play for Philly.

 

Once we know the results I guess then we could decide if we want to keep Ekholm or not because he would be under contract for next season.

 

And say you want to keep him for another run since you just came off a Cup appearance. 

 

So you make another run maybe and then during the season you may know hey we want to extend him and ink him to a contract.

 

Or say he wants to test the waters then you could trade him for a nice return.

 

So not all would be lost and something will have to be given for that chance at the Cup.

 

You have to pay to get a quality return back.

 

So what happens if you keep Patrick we play out the season and get bounced first round.

 

Then the following year he is still showing the same uninspiring play now you certainly what get a solid return for him because everyone would know on top of his injury concerns he doesn't really seem like he wants to play hockey any longer.

 

No you're stuck holding your duck with nothing to show for it but wasted years.

 

Or even worse say he gets concussed next year and just decides to retire and once again you are left holding your duck.

 

I would rather make the bold move and do it while his stock is still up.

 

But hey that's me.

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30 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Good job now see that wasn't so hard was it?

 

 

First the results of what Ekholm brought to the team would need to be known.

 

If they go to the finals and maybe lose to say Vegas I was worth it for all the kids to gain that type of experience.

 

Especially if it cost Patrick who looks like he isn't very interested in playing from what I have seen or that he doesn't want to play for Philly.

 

Once we know the results I guess then we could decide if we want to keep Ekholm or not because he would be under contract for next season.

 

And say you want to keep him for another run since you just came off a Cup appearance. 

 

So you make another run maybe and then during the season you may know hey we want to extend him and ink him to a contract.

 

Or say he wants to test the waters then you could trade him for a nice return.

 

So not all would be lost and something will have to be given for that chance at the Cup.

 

You have to pay to get a quality return back.

 

So what happens if you keep Patrick we play out the season and get bounced first round.

 

Then the following year he is still showing the same uninspiring play now you certainly what get a solid return for him because everyone would know on top of his injury concerns he doesn't really seem like he wants to play hockey any longer.

 

No you're stuck holding your duck with nothing to show for it but wasted years.

 

Or even worse say he gets concussed next year and just decides to retire and once again you are left holding your duck.

 

I would rather make the bold move and do it while his stock is still up.

 

But hey that's me.

 

 Sure, sounds great. Cause this team looks like an Ekholm away from the finals.

 

 Now what if Patrick, the 2nd overall pick who's just coming off missing an entire season actually fully recovers and becomes what he looked like he was going to be when he was picked 2nd overall? Because none of what you're saying is taking that into consideration. It's all doom and gloom Patrick and sunshine and lollipops Ekholm. But I'm the pessimist. 

 

 

 

 Using your Ekholm blueprint, what if Patrick carries the team to the finals and we win? Cause so far he's won the Flyers  the same amount of cups as Ekholm has won the Preds. 

 

 Consider this...when Ekholm was Patricks age he played 1 NHL game.  He played 2 the season before. They should have traded him then, cause he was a bust. Amirite?

 

 

Edited by flyercanuck
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1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 The positive? 

 

 Ekholm leads the Flyers to 5 consecutive Stanley Cups, winning the Norris every year except one when Provorov wins it.

 

 Now, back to reality. 

 

 Just for sheetz and gigs...if you want to make a big splash start thinking what you have to give up to Seattle for them to NOT take what we don't want them to. Instead of that (say a 1st and a decent prospect) what can you get for Patrick, a 1st and a decent prospect. Cause maybe you can get a good Dman with some term. 

 

 Another option if you want Ekholm is maybe offering something like Ghost/Laughton and a 2nd, or something around that. 

 

 Again, this type of deal would be a lot easier to make without losing something else in expansion.

I think trading Laughton would probably be a mistake . At first glance people might think of him as easily expendable, but he really is our grittiest and most clutch player on a team of soft underachievers. Unlike lots of other guys on the team , he comes to play every night . That type of contribution is easily overlooked because he’s a third or fourth line guy, but his value is much more than meets the eye. Sometimes having a player with average talent , who puts in 100% is better than having a more talented player who rarely shows up. Kind of like having a dependable truck over a sports car that just looks flashy, but doesn’t perform when needed most.

Edited by RonJeremy
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6 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

I think trading Laughton would probably be a mistake . At first glance people might think of him as easily expendable, but he really is our grittiest and most clutch player on a team of soft underachievers. Unlike lots of other guys on the team , he comes to play every night . That type of contribution is easily overlooked because he’s a third or fourth line guy, but his value is much more than meets the eye. Sometimes having a player with average talent , who puts in 100% is better than having a more talented player who rarely shows up. Kind of like having a dependable truck over a sports car that just looks flashy, but doesn’t perform when needed most.

The Flyers might not have a choice but to deal Laughton or lose him for nothing next year. I think the best thing Chuckles can do is all Laughton for a list of teams where he'd prefer to go and try to work something there. 

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9 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

I think trading Laughton would probably be a mistake . At first glance people might think of him as easily expendable, but he really is our grittiest and most clutch player on a team of soft underachievers. Unlike lots of other guys on the team , he comes to play every night . That type of contribution is easily overlooked because he’s a third or fourth line guy, but his value is much more than meets the eye. Sometimes having a player with average talent , who puts in 100% is better than having a more talented player who rarely shows up. Kind of like having a dependable truck over a sports car that just looks flashy, but doesn’t perform when needed most.

 

I don't think Laughton is crap or anything. I actually like Laughton. And you're right, he's good at what he does and he usually comes to play. 

 

 I'd just be more inclined to trade a couple of "lesser" pieces which might be easier to replace than the potential Patrick has. 

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2 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 Really? At 22 and coming off missing an entire season with migraine issues...there's no upside at all?  

 

 Come on.

The upside is his migraine issue is resolved and doesnt force him to retire. Then you have his other injury issues to be concerned with

 

After that,  you have his nhl performance

 

165,28g,38a,66pts, -14

 

What improvement is realistic,  that he becomes a 20 goal guy?

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28 minutes ago, CoachX said:

The upside is his migraine issue is resolved and doesnt force him to retire. Then you have his other injury issues to be concerned with

 

After that,  you have his nhl performance

 

165,28g,38a,66pts, -14

 

What improvement is realistic,  that he becomes a 20 goal guy?

 

I'm not sure...but generally guys don't peak at 22. 

 

People were writing Crosby off in 2011 when he had 2 concussions. And before you go there, I'm not trying to compare Patricks talent to his. But here he is, 2 more concussions later and 2 Stanley Cups later, still playing...well.

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1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

Because none of what you're saying is taking that into consideration.

 

We win a Cup.

 

So it would be worth it.

 

They got something we got something it's how it works.

 

But I get it you live in fear that it could not work out.

 

Fine keep your magic beans then.

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27 minutes ago, CoachX said:

 

 

After that,  you have his nhl performance

 

165,28g,38a,66pts, -14

 

What improvement is realistic,  that he becomes a 20 goal guy?

Yes, I said a 45/20 guy. 

That's not a great #2 pick but it's good production for a middle six player. 

My thought used to be that was his floor, now that might be the ceiling. 

It's kind of sad actually.

The part that makes it difficult for me to join the bust chorus is he's only 22 and given a normal development curve not close to being a finished product. 

 

We need help in the top 4, if trading him solidifies that for more than this season it should be considered. 

We're deep enough at forward waiting and seeing with him is low risk.

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5 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

We win a Cup.

 

So it would be worth it.

 

They got something we got something it's how it works.

 

But I get it you live in fear that it could not work out.

 

Fine keep your magic beans then.

 

So it's that simple...just get Ekholm and the cup is ours? Then sign me up. Heck, if it's that simple send them Konecny, Provorov and a 1st just to make sure he doesn't go somewhere else. Or do you live in fear that it could not work out?

 

 

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1 minute ago, flyercanuck said:

So it's that simple...just get Ekholm and the cup is ours?

 

You never know maybe he brings one or even his tutelage will to Ivan, Myers and Sanheim will help bring one that still counts.

 

And it's just as likely as Patrick scoring 20 goals in a season.

 

Right now pointless in 13 games let's see him just get an assist oh #2 overall great one.

 

#babysteps

 

7 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

Or do you live in fear that it could not work out?

 

Oh no I'm not fearful of it, hell I'm the one offering him up for the chance.

 

And hey it might not work.

 

There are no guarantees.

 

But I like the chances better with Ekholm than I do with Patrick. 

 

Nolan has a long ways to go to change my mind.

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58 minutes ago, CoachX said:

The upside is his migraine issue is resolved and doesnt force him to retire. Then you have his other injury issues to be concerned with

 

After that,  you have his nhl performance

 

165,28g,38a,66pts, -14

 

What improvement is realistic,  that he becomes a 20 goal guy?

 

Man Ekholm has as many points (4 goals 2 assist) in the last 4 games as Patrick has in 20. 

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6 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Nolan has a long ways to go to change my mind.

 

Of course. Cause he's 22. 

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1 minute ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Of course. Cause he's 22. 

 

Hey he was the 2nd overall pick.

 

No excuses.

 

Get an assist and we'll talk.

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22 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

So it's that simple...just get Ekholm and the cup is ours? Then sign me up. Heck, if it's that simple send them Konecny, Provorov and a 1st just to make sure he doesn't go somewhere else. Or do you live in fear that it could not work out?

 

 

How long do you want to wait for Patrick to pan out, whether it be raising his game to another level or just...the unfortunate thing he can't totally control, and that's staying healthy? In addition to that, factor in that he's going to certainly want a raise next season. It'll be a million plus, to be sure. Ekholm on the other hand, is a proven commodity and I would rather have him helping our young defensemen develop, than holding our breath on a...well maybe he'll pan out, maybe he won't in Patrick. Patrick is more likely to be a bust than he is a star, and I'm prepared to eat crow if I'm wrong.

Edited by FD19372
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1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Hey he was the 2nd overall pick.

 

No excuses.

 

Get an assist and we'll talk.

 

 I can't...they won't let us play here yet.

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3 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

How long do you want to wait for Patrick to pan out, whether it be raising his game to another level or just...the unfortunate thing he can't totally control, and that's staying healthy? In addition to that, factor in that he's going to certainly want a raise next season. It'll be a million plus, to be sure. Ekholm on the other hand, is a proven commodity and I would rather have him helping our young defensemen develop, than holding our breath on a...well maybe he'll pan out, maybe he won't in Patrick. Patrick is more likely to be a bust than he is a star, and I'm prepared to eat crow if I'm wrong.

 

 I'm not against having Ekholm. 

 

 I'm against trading away a 22 year old former 2nd overall...and then adding to that whatever we'd have to lose to keep Ekholm because of how that factors into the expansion draft. And then maybe losing him anyway to free agency. 

 

 those are the things you have to consider.

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8 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Hey he was the 2nd overall pick.

 

No excuses.

 

Get an assist and we'll talk.

How about a Gordie Howe hat trick? :ph34r:

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1 minute ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 I'm not against having Ekholm. 

 

 I'm against trading away a 22 year old former 2nd overall...and then adding to that whatever we'd have to lose to keep Ekholm because of how that factors into the expansion draft. And then maybe losing him anyway to free agency. 

 

 those are the things you have to consider.

I am considering that, but I am also considering hurting a team hitting it's stride, and our young players improving and advancing...so now it could become an almost daily, "Yeah, but what about Nolan?" "How's he feeling ?", "Is he showing signs of living up to be number one or two center, which is where he SHOULD be?" Meanwhile, we're damaging our team's near future chances of winning it all. It's a team game. Ekholm can, and should, help us IMMEDIATELY. That's why, again, you do this deal..for the kids on defense.

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