Possible Trade: Mattias Ekholm

[OccamsRazor]

2 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

that can cause one to be in a fog like state.

 

That is what I am seeing and it is concerning. It feels like if something doesn't change with him they would be crazy to sign him to more than a one year prove it deal when his is up.

 

Or just move him while they can.

 

But that would need to take place maybe during the offseason less likely to move him during the season I would think.

[ruxpin]

5 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

That is what I am seeing and it is concerning.

Yeah, we are definitely seeing the same.

[OccamsRazor]

6 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Yeah, we are definitely seeing the same.

 

So he will need a new contract so what do you do with him?

 

He hasn't even had a single point since January 26th a stretch of 13 games and is -7 over that stretch.

 

At best I offer him another one year deal for around 2 mill tops.

[ruxpin]

34 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

So he will need a new contract so what do you do with him?

 

He hasn't even had a single point since January 26th a stretch of 13 games and is -7 over that stretch.

 

At best I offer him another one year deal for around 2 mill tops.

Honestly, I move on if I can.   I'd prefer to get something for him.  If Nashville wants him for Ekholm, that's fine.  I know some people's heads here will explode and I'm completely sympathetic with that.   I know the Flyers history of trading young potential for rentals.   If my suspicion is right and it's still medical, then it's potentially fixable and we will regret it.   If I'm not and what we're seeing is what we're getting, then let's get something else.   I would hope the front office knows the difference.

 

But in any case, I've been hesitant because of lessons learned with Couturier.    And he's still only 22, was brought up entirely too early, and he's missed significant time even before he was drafted.      We've talked about Jay 0'Brien elsewhere, but I think this is actually a bigger Hextall/Pryor "oops."      In any case, I don't perceive Patrick as being any potential repeat of Couturier's curve.   Even without offense, Coots was clearly smart and was extremely effective defensively.      Patrick?   Yeah, I'm sorry but I'm moving into the "get what you can now" camp.

[OccamsRazor]

4 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

But in any case, I've been hesitant because of lessons learned with Couturier. 

 

I get what you're saying about Coots but to me it's not the same I think.

 

I don't think anyone questioned Coots fire and motivation though.

 

Sure they questioned his skating and speed but to me that can be fixed.

 

It is very hard to fix someone's fire/passion/gumption.

 

And that is what I question most about the kid. And I see it in his play or lack thereof.

 

Very alarming. I didn't watch the whole game last night I watched the condensed version of it. And just take notice of that he wasn't even in it much.

 

There was the hit on Friedman and he made one other play in the defensive zone and that was it.

 

And I know that is no way to make an accesment but it just verified to me what I was seeing when I was watching the whole game.

 

I just don't know if he wants it bad enough or just wants it to be all over with.

 

 

[CoachX]

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I know this will bring all the haters from the Fly guy lovers for this comment but I would put Nolan Patrick on the block for Ekholm.

 

Sorry I am ready to pull the plug on the kid.

 

Something there is just missing with him when I watch him. And it isn't because he hasn't played in awhile because in all actuality he skated this past summer and in the winter too with a group of former players mostly X-Flyer Ryan White.

 

It's more than that. I just don't see any passion or want in his face when he is out there. Sure there is spurts of it but the fire is gone. It looks to me like when you're doing something for someone else it's like he is going through all this for his parents or someone else who is pushing him.

 

It's my read on the kid so maybe a change of scenery would do him some good.

 

So yes I would make him the center piece for Ekholm since the Preds need forward depth.

 

But with him I can't really send much more for a possible guy you will have to offer Seattle something not to select him.

 

Maybe a 4th round pick that is it. It is a high risk reward for the Preds but they will get the younger player with upside potential but I know is one hit away from retirement. I get it. But it is time to move on I say especially with him also needing a new contract too.

 

So go ahead mojo and pods let me hear it I'm ready drinking my coffee and it's early and I'm stuck at work till 7.

Put me in the camp that supports you. Im on a day off and have coffee in hand

[CoachX]

1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

 

You realize you're thinking the same thing as me, and that brings you to the conclusion that you're not crazy.  Interesting

This comment caused me to spike my coffee 

[OccamsRazor]

3 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Put me in the camp that supports you. Im on a day off and have coffee in hand

 

Already on my second cup today and it's not even 11 am yet.

 

What can I say I love fresh ground coffee.

 

I know Chuckles is going to reup Patrick I just hope it isn't for too much for too long.

[mojo1917]

3 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

So go ahead mojo and pods let me hear it I'm ready drinking my coffee and it's early and I'm stuck at work till 7.

 

If the trade benefits the team, in a manner similar to having 6 or so years of a middle 6 centerman, make it.

I don't know if Eckholm does that because of his age and contract situation. 

For the right guy, i think you trade a guy like Patrick. I wonder if 2 years of Eckholm is the right value, since we don't know where Patrick's potential leads him.

Does he turn into a reliable 45/20 guy ?

Does he have a long career doing just that?

Those outcomes are easier to take if the guy he's traded for is still helping the Flyers 4 years from now. 

 

My other thought is people were all set to ship Couturier out of town or declare him a bust because Dougie Hamilton or whatever, and look what happened there, not saying the same thing will happen with Patrick.

But Nolan has a lot of natural ability and may just need some time to figure the NHL out. I don't mind being patient with him either.

 

tl:dr

if the guy coming in helps the team for more than this season and maybe the next you strongly consider making the trade. 

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by mojo1917

[CoachX]

If they don't move him and decide to re-sign, it has to be small term/small cap

 

Lets assume what we are seeing is a result of his medical issue. Maybe thats a fixable issue. Ok, it get fixed. What then? Prior to this he was a decent player at best. And he has a history of injury related issues throughout his career. At this point you are holding on to nothing more than a faint hope you have a diamond in the rough. The reality suggests not

 

The team needs help right now! He cant provide any of that wearing o/b

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

2 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

For the right guy, i think you trade a guy like Patrick. I wonder if 2 years of Eckholm is the right value

 

I think so because along with the physical skill set he brings he also brings the scoring that is equal to what Sanheim brings just check the stats. Now with that I am not saying he skates like Sanheim just that when he chooses to jump into the play on offense he can light the lamp.

 

So you get a guy on the backend who can make it hard for the other team to play against it is what they sorely need.

 

And I think most importantly he can show Myers where he needs to take gas game too. Phil Myers has all the size and tools to play a game very similar to what Ekholm brings. Phil just needs that tutor out on the ice in practice showing him not just telling him.

 

So the teacher part is the intangible ME brings that is hard to put value on.

 

When the fans see him play he will be a hit I am telling you.

 

Skip to 2:43 of this video....

 

 

I like a guy who can pick the corner.

 

 

And has some good size 6-4 215.

 

 

I don't know I have always like the guys play.

[OccamsRazor]

29 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

 

tl:dr

if the guy coming in helps the team for more than this season and maybe the next you strongly consider making the trade. 

 

 

This is why I want this guy I think he brings value they need.

 

And not for just one year.

 

Even if you would prefer to wait till after the expansion draft then do it.

 

I see him being here longer than just next year once given a chance to prove his value.

 

Provorov - Ekholm

Sanheim - Myers

Zamula - Braun

Hagg?

 

Besides I would rather he being a Flyer than playing against him on the Penguins or Bruins like has been mentioned rumored to be in on him.

 

But it's my 2 cents.

 

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by OccamsRazor
bourbon isn't working

[mojo1917]

1 minute ago, CoachX said:

At this point you are holding on to nothing more than a faint hope you have a diamond in the rough

I don't know if that's what one calls a kid that was a #2 pick overall. 

At this point I think it is more correct to say he's not living up to his pedigree. 

 

So, I'm not sure I cotton to the "faint hope" idea. The medical question is legitimate, as is the stunting of his growth by bringing him to the Flyers too young. 

I'm not dead set against moving him for the right return. I do think the situation has a lot of potential to be a 'goddammit why did we trade that kid for X" though.

I've seen that movie too often to not have it inform my opinion on the subject.

 

 

 

[CoachX]

4 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I don't know if that's what one calls a kid that was a #2 pick overall. 

At this point I think it is more correct to say he's not living up to his pedigree. 

 

So, I'm not sure I cotton to the "faint hope" idea. The medical question is legitimate, as is the stunting of his growth by bringing him to the Flyers too young. 

I'm not dead set against moving him for the right return. I do think the situation has a lot of potential to be a 'goddammit why did we trade that kid for X" though.

I've seen that movie too often to not have it inform my opinion on the subject.

 

 

 

What have you seen him do at the NHL level that suggests he will develop into a worthy #2 pick. Or for that matter, a good productive player?

 

If all your going on is the fear of past organizational moves, thats not an assessment of what he is 

[Podein25]

5 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I don't know if that's what one calls a kid that was a #2 pick overall. 

At this point I think it is more correct to say he's not living up to his pedigree. 

 

So, I'm not sure I cotton to the "faint hope" idea. The medical question is legitimate, as is the stunting of his growth by bringing him to the Flyers too young. 

I'm not dead set against moving him for the right return. I do think the situation has a lot of potential to be a 'goddammit why did we trade that kid for X" though.

I've seen that movie too often to not have it inform my opinion on the subject.

 

 

 

 

Agreed. I do not like the idea of selling low on a guy. Only regret will follow.

[OccamsRazor]

6 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I do think the situation has a lot of potential to be a 'goddammit why did we trade for that kid for X" though.

 

And this also has a chance to be said by the team we would be trading him too.

 

It is risk reward for both sides honestly.

 

Myself I have seen enough to be willing to take that risk especially when I consider he fell into their laps by wining the lottery.

 

And I'm not the gambling type. It is just a gut feeling.

[mojo1917]

Just now, CoachX said:

What have you seen him do at the NHL level that suggests he will develop into a worthy #2 pick

It's already happened.

He was the #2 overall pick. I watched it happen in 2017.

 

He was picked there based upon what he did in junior and what he could project into becoming as a man.

I know you know this.

 

I've seen him score a goal between his legs in the NHL, I've seen him make passes to guys, who admittedly weren't ready, but had they been were prime scoring chances. I've seen him get beat up and lose puck races and battles too, I've seen him knock Jack Johnson into the next week. I have seen his skill at this level, I haven't seen it consistently enough though. So the inconsistency is the problem for me.

 

As for my reticence to trading him being fear based, let me ask you, is this team a Mattias Eckholm away from reaching the goals you have for them?

Based on our conversations I'd say that's a strong no. So what's the problem with letting the kid develop a little longer?

You're not saying back up the brinks truck to sign him, neither am I. 

There's more common ground on that guy with me than you think 

 

 

[mojo1917]

@OccamsRazor

I see your point. 

I do.

 

My feeling about the team is they're at a tipping point. With the right moves, I don't know what they are, they could be good for next 6 to 10 years. 

I don't want to waste the assets and cause that window to shrink. We've waited for a while for this team to be decent, and they are, spending the assets on hand to open the winning window and keep it open requires more wisdom than I have. 

I seem to remember a few other times when the team was 85% built, but short sighted moves derailed the progress.

I'm a little gun shy from those experiences.

Edited March 5, 2021 by mojo1917

[FD19372]

I know Patrick was the #2 pick in the draft, but with his injury history ...and the fact that you're waiting for your second line center to develop into something, is a bit disturbing. I think it is more likely that Patrick will be a bust, if not an injury riddled bust that will retire early than be a great player. Plus, from a management standpoint, do you want to be paying a player millions of dollars, that is either struggling to stay healthy or hasn't yet developed down the road in year 6 or 7 of him being a pro? I wouldn't.  I hear in this thread about selling low, but I just fear that this kid isn't going to live up to the weight of being that highly touted. If you draft well and sign a free agent center next season, you can compensate for dealing Patrick. What I see is that ever since Niskanen hung up his skates, there has been a need for a steady veteran presence back there that can defend steadily and move the puck. That is an immediate need (for Ekholm), and if that what it takes to make the deal, I pull the trigger and not waste the team's success right now.

Edited March 5, 2021 by FD19372

[mojo1917]

3 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

What I see is that ever since Niskanen hung up his skates, there has been a need for a steady veteran presence back there that can defend steadily and move the puck. That is an immediate need, and if that what it takes to make the deal, I pull the trigger and not waste the team's success right now.

This point is not lost on me either.

 

Do you think Patrick is the ask for a player to replace Niskanen's minutes?

At this point, I'm not sure there is enough of a track record to say yes or no. 

Patrick and picks? 

 

Here's a question for the panel. What's to be made of the Buffalo situation.

There is maybe 1 player signed for next year, Eichel. After that they're all UFA or RFA . 

Does that team become the Ollies Bargain Bin for NHL talent? 

[CoachX]

11 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

20 minutes ago, CoachX said:

 

It's already happened.

He was the #2 overall pick. I watched it happen in 2017.

 

He was picked there based upon what he did in junior and what he could project into becoming as a man.

I know you know this

Just because he was picked there, doesnt mean he has played to a level worthy of that spot.

 

A few recent number 2s... Eichel, Laine, Svechnikov, Barkov, Landeskog, Seguin, Hedman, Doughty, Kakko, hell, JVR!

 

Evaluating him TODAY, he has disappointed. I dont see a player who will ever be good enough to justify his draft position

[OccamsRazor]

7 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

 

I seem to remember a few other times when the team was 85% built, but short sighted moves derailed the progress.

I'm a little gun shy from those experiences

 

Sure but this doesn't feel like that.

 

This would feel like a move they made for Kimmo Timonium.

 

What age was Kimmo when he started his Flyer career?

 

32.

 

And he played 7 years with the Flyers.

 

Maybe this works out.

 

They trade a 1st round pick for him and Hartnell.

 

And it worked out very well. Sure they fell short of the Cup but they haven't been back since.

 

And this is a risky move to I get it.

 

I'll take that chance...otherwise I feel they will be left holding their dicks when it all done with Patrick.

 

You don't have to agree.

[OccamsRazor]

14 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

I know Patrick was the #2 pick in the draft, but with his injury history ...and the fact that you're waiting for your second line center to develop into something, is a bit disturbing. I think it is more likely that Patrick will be a bust, if not an injury riddled bust that will retire early than be a great player. Plus, from a management standpoint, do you want to be paying a player millions of dollars, that is either struggling to stay healthy or hasn't yet developed down the road in year 6 or 7 of him being a pro? I wouldn't.  I hear in this thread about selling low, but I just fear that this kid isn't going to live up to the weight of being that highly touted. If you draft well and sign a free agent center next season, you can compensate for dealing Patrick. What I see is that ever since Niskanen hung up his skates, there has been a need for a steady veteran presence back there that can defend steadily and move the puck. That is an immediate need (for Ekholm), and if that what it takes to make the deal, I pull the trigger and not waste the team's success right now.

 

 

Well said. I could not agree more.

 

Be bold, make a bold move...

 

...and as part of the arms race how much does it matter that Ekholm doesn't fall into the enemies hands weigh?

 

I would rather play with him than against him and him taking liberties with the Konecny and Lindblom of the Flyers.

[CoachX]

23 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Let me ask you, is this team a Mattias Eckholm away from reaching the goals you have for them?

No. But he can help improve the team. Hes a step in the right direction. Patrick is all he will ever be

[mojo1917]

6 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Just because he was picked there, doesnt mean he has played to a level worthy of that spot.

Where did I say he has?

 

I only said he was picked there, and that it was indicative of his skill level based on the information available at the time.