What is wrong with the Flyers and how do you fix it?

[RonJeremy]

2 hours ago, radoran said:

 

I wouldn't say they are "mediocre" - they are terribly inconsistent.

 

I do think Giroux is a Very Good player, but he has clearly not been a difference maker and as a Very Good player on a mediocre team he's able to put up higher numbers than he might in a different situation.

 

It also puts him at a disadvantage in the postseason as teams can focus on shutting him down - and they have. He has four goals in the playoffs as captain - in 35 games.

 

That said, I have to think that Voracek is one of the guys being talked about in the "coasting" criticism that's bursting out of the seams of the locker room.

Giroux was/is nothing more than a complementary player, he is not the go to guy, but Flyers management treated him like he was. He might well have been our best player for  the past 8 or 9 years , but we never put enough quality players around him.  Giroux was at his best when we had Briere, Carter, Richards, etc and he was just an additional weapon and was not looked upon to be the savior.Once he become our captain and we traded the other guys, I guess he couldn’t handle the pressure .

[OccamsRazor]

38 minutes ago, Bertmega said:

see you all in 2026

 

What up stranger.

 

Jake Voracek will be wearing the C when you return...

[Cheesesteak]

3 hours ago, elmatus said:

Voracek is similar, with the caveat being that he won't likely fetch a very big return. Still, at least shop him around and see what teams would offer. If something worthwhile comes around for a rebuilding team, take it. Take picks if that's all you can get. He's going to be a major lame duck (even worse than now) with a weaker team. There's no sense keeping him if there's any value to be had.

 

Will the team suck if any of that happens? Yep. Very suck. It's not like they're great now, and suckage means we might get lucky finally and get some quality top five picks to actually build a team around. 

Can this be Voracek's name from now on?   Jake Verysuck  

Edited April 2, 2021 by Cheesesteak
shortened quote...didn't have desired effect

[Cheesesteak]

5 hours ago, tucson83 said:

for the av haters not you, blame hextall for not firing hak when trotz was available and to your statement, it was on hextall for not trading the prospects to get better players when we had cap space while we were competitive in 2018. if hextall didnt sit on his a## when talent and coaching was there for the taking, this probably would never have happened. now we are stuck and fletch is caught in a needle and haystack trying to figure how to get out of this mess by hextall.

That's the problem with this team...all haystack, no needles.

[radoran]

9 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

Giroux was at his best when we had Briere, Carter, Richards, etc and he was just an additional weapon and was not looked upon to be the savior.Once he become our captain and we traded the other guys, I guess he couldn’t handle the pressure

 

I have long thought this to be true.

 

If he had stayed a playmaking wing and "the trades" had never happened, there's a chance @jammer2 might have been right about Crater scoring 60...

 

[Cheesesteak]

2 hours ago, Digityman said:

 

I read that whole book you wrote      You made some good points.  My only argument is that, as you stated, the draft is pretty much a lottery.   So collecting quality draft picks might lead them to this exact same spot in 5 years.   Scalpel or hatchet.  

 

I'm in the scalpel group.  

I VOTE FLAMETHROWER 

[elmatus]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

 

I have long thought this to be true.

 

If he had stayed a playmaking wing and "the trades" had never happened, there's a chance @jammer2 might have been right about Crater scoring 60...

 

 

Honestly, i feel like the best comparison for Giroux is probably Nick Backstrom. Both have a similar skill set and are in the club of elite playmakers over a similar timeframe. 

 

The huge difference between them of course is that Backstrom was never the top dog on his team. He always rode shotgun, and in his case he rode shotgun to the greatest sniper of recent memory.

 

Washington also managed to snag a lot of high caliber players in the Ovi era, which shows in how consistent they’ve been as a team. And yeah, the playoffs have not been kind to them during that time, but they’ve always been contenders with a good shot. By comparison, our team has been nowhere near that levek of consistent success. 

 

All to say that i have a very hard time laying blame at the feet of a guy who turned out to be one of the most productive playmakers we’ve ever had. He’s never been a generational talent, and really shouldn’t be the number one guy, but he’s definitely in the small club of very good players over his career. 

[radoran]

15 minutes ago, elmatus said:

All to say that i have a very hard time laying blame at the feet of a guy who turned out to be one of the most productive playmakers we’ve ever had.

 

Oh, I don't blame him for it...

 

I tellya who I blame...

 

 

[FD19372]

30 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Oh, I don't blame him for it...

 

I tellya who I blame...

 

 

Favorite son

 

Gold, Orange and Black Snider Club Med Member since 1995-96. Too bad NO ONE has the SACK, in the Flyers organization, to tell him to his face... he's not the person for the job.

Edited April 2, 2021 by FD19372

[OccamsRazor]

55 minutes ago, elmatus said:

Honestly, i feel like the best comparison for Giroux is probably Nick Backstrom. Both have a similar skill set and are in the club of elite playmakers over a similar timeframe. 

 

That is a good comparison. Minus the Cup. 

 

The Flyers never delivered an Ovenchicken either....

 

...was their downfall.

 

Robin with no Batman.

 

And they finally get a goalie and quit playing defense.

 

[CoachX]

1 hour ago, FD19372 said:

Favorite son

 

Gold, Orange and Black Snider Club Med Member since 1995-96. Too bad NO ONE has the SACK, in the Flyers organization, to tell him to his face... he's not the person for the job.

here's why...

 

 

[FD19372]

6 minutes ago, CoachX said:

here's why...

 

 

Then I'll hire some younger tough guys... to help him pack. I know what he did as a player. I don't care. I want people in the front office, who are the best at their job, not players who just played well in their career. Enough with the nepotism.

[CoachX]

6 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

Then I'll hire some younger tough guys... to help him pack. I know what he did as a player. I don't care. I want people in the front office, who are the best at their job, not players who just played well in their career. Enough with the nepotism.

I agree with your points, but i was joking

 

You need a stress reliever

[FD19372]

2 minutes ago, CoachX said:

I agree with your points, but i was joking

 

You need a stress reliever

My stress reliever is not watching this Flyers team, and  watching other ...actually good teams...so I can remember what well-played hockey looks like.

[otto12]

Claude, JVR and Jake have neither the talent or leadership qualities to lead the Flyers to a cup. That needs to be addressed. But it can't be fixed by the trade deadline. It's off season business.

[FD19372]

5 minutes ago, otto12 said:

Claude, JVR and Jake have neither the talent or leadership qualities to lead the Flyers to a cup. That needs to be addressed. But it can't be fixed by the trade deadline. It's off season business.

It's been off season business for a while now, yet nothing gets done.

[flyer4ever]

5 hours ago, Cheesesteak said:

I VOTE FLAMETHROWER 

chainsaw - 5 years ago

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, otto12 said:

Claude, JVR and Jake have neither the talent or leadership qualities to lead the Flyers to a cup. That needs to be addressed. But it can't be fixed by the trade deadline. It's off season business.

 

Sure but the trade deadline may be a means to get a head start on the process if utilized properly.

[flyercanuck]

18 hours ago, FD19372 said:

The worst place to be, is having the organization irresponsibility, of giving two mediocre, or slightly better than mediocre players..in Voracek and Giroux massive, STUPID comtracts , one with an NMC. Now, we have to PRAY that we can move at least one of them.

 

Then following those up with JVR and Hayes. Yes JVR has played well this year and Hayes did last year. And Giroux and Voracek have also had some good years. But you'd have to combine ALL their good years together to make any one of those contracts look good.

[CoachX]

I know we keep saying Jake and G aren't  good players. I dont really think that. Its not that they dont have skill, its that they dont bother to use it. Instead they play lackadaisical hockey and dont care about out come

 

I think they have quit on this team

[SCFlyguy]

I don't think they have quit.  I just don't think they're that good anymore. Jake has never had the highest motor and outside of one year has never approached being a dominant player.  This is pretty much what a 30yo Jake  was always going to look like.

 

G was a dominant player earlier in his career, but he now has a lot of tread on his tires (he's been playing over 10 years).  He's not a physical specimen with size.  This is not like the late 90s where veteran players were the focus of the game and entered their primes from 30-32.  It is a younger game now and the prime is actually around 26 if you look at it statistically.  He pretty much looks exactly like I would expect him to look at this stage of his career.

 

Regardless of the reasons, neither of them is capable of carrying the team or even contributing to a Cup team given the Flyers dearth of other talent.  Time for them to go, even though the Flyers will be worse off without them in the short term.

 

 

[CoachX]

See, I don't really get that argument. At one point he was considered top 4 in the league, and at least in the conversation. I get he was never Crosby or Ovi, and never will be. But why has his decline been so dramatic over the same time period, and theirs has not? I know the response is going to be something about how they are HOF super talents, and I get it, and agree, but I still don't see the "physical skills" decline.

 

When I read comments by other players questioning effort. When I see a disappearing act coupled with rumors of how family separation had affected this guy, I come to a different conclusion. Then you mix in this weird season and schedule, other players weaknesses being exposed, I see a player who doesn't appear to really care.

 

The last point I factor in is how this core has been coddled, let off the hook, and given entitlement. Now there is a coach and GM who aren't playing those games. I don't think little Jakey is happy with how things are going. He seems to me to be a petulant ass.

 

This is what I think is at the heart of the matter

[MaineFlyFan]

17 hours ago, CoachX said:

here's why...

 

 

Whoa! You guys remember Hockey?!?...

 

That used to be fun....

[FD19372]

1 minute ago, MaineFlyFan said:

Whoa! You guys remember Hockey?!?...

 

That used to be fun....

It also might explain why Holmgren should be in Florida, retired somewhere, and not running an NHL front office. Those punches against him, or anyone, add up.

[GratefulFlyers]

Maybe whoever posted "get rid of everyone over 28" has the right idea. Say goodbye to some fan favorites and start a true rebuild. Keep Couturier for obvious reasons but that's it.

 

The foundation - goaltending - is solid. Hart is the Flyers best goalie since Bobrovsky. The D's potential is there with Provorov, Myers and Sanheim. At forward no game-breakers but maybe Farabee, Konecny can become that. Maybe even Lindblom, Patrick too. Their ceilings are unknown I think. How to protect them all is where it gets tricky.

 

But this is all fantasy right? None of the suits are thinking along these lines. They look at profitability first not PO or Cup wins. That they're tied together doesn't seem to register with the Flyers' brass...at least not to the extent it should. In any case Fletcher strikes me as too timid to ask for a rebuild.