What is wrong with the Flyers and how do you fix it?

[flyer4ever]

#28 has been a good pro for 10 plus years. There are 2 problems with his contract now. He is too slow and too soft to make $8.2. He makes up for some of it with his brain, but he still lags way behind other $8.2's in the league. The bigger problem is his NMC. The remaining year is going to cost the Flyers a player in the Kraken draft. Despite the recent **** show there are assets that could be claimed. It would be good for everyone if he waived and went to a contender. The Flyers would have to eat some salary but it would only be for a year, and we all agree nothing good is gonna happen in one year. 2022 is a deep draft pool, and there are some decent blueliners in the 2021 draft pool. Tanking, whatever you want to call it is the way to go. I would rather watch a bunch of young guys working their asses off for a year or 2 than the current group. The current team is unwatchable.

One last note. Though he is not the bible or the guru on prospects, Craig Buttons TSN top 75 list contains one Flyer, Cam York at #46. Not so good looking forward. 

[CoachX]

8 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Maybe whoever posted "get rid of everyone over 28" has the right idea. Say goodbye to some fan favorites and start a true rebuild. Keep Couturier for obvious reasons but that's it.

 

The foundation - goaltending - is solid. Hart is the Flyers best goalie since Bobrovsky. The D's potential is there with Provorov, Myers and Sanheim. At forward no game-breakers but maybe Farabee, Konecny can become that. Maybe even Lindblom, Patrick too. Their ceilings are unknown I think. How to protect them all is where it gets tricky.

 

But this is all fantasy right? None of the suits are thinking along these lines. They look at profitability first not PO or Cup wins. That they're tied together doesn't seem to register with the Flyers' brass...at least not to the extent it should. In any case Fletcher strikes me as too timid to ask for a rebuild.

 

See! Now you are making sense 

[elmatus]

2 hours ago, CoachX said:

See, I don't really get that argument. At one point he was considered top 4 in the league, and at least in the conversation. I get he was never Crosby or Ovi, and never will be. But why has his decline been so dramatic over the same time period, and theirs has not? I know the response is going to be something about how they are HOF super talents, and I get it, and agree, but I still don't see the "physical skills" decline.

 

This may be an agree to disagree situation for us. I don't think they've lost drive or desire or will or whatever other hard to discern metric. I think they're just not skilled enough as assembled. I also don't think we have a stable that will allow us to contend any time soon. We need higher end prospects that we simply don't have right now. 

 

Giroux has been a good soldier for us. He did the best he could with the cards he was dealt. I don't think anyone aside from Lavy truly ever considered him top four in the league. He has pretty much always been top 20 or so, which is great, but that's not enough to build a contender around. His ability to play at a highly productive level for large periods of time made him hard to gauge in terms of potential. Homer and Hexy bit on the gamble that he could be that guy, and it turns out they were wrong. 

 

We can point out that he should never have been considered a franchise guy, and that's fair. The truth is that no other player on our team has been more productive than him this decade. Couts is only now getting to a level where he's comparable. Put another way, I highly doubt anyone currently on the team or in our current prospect pool will ever produce at the levels he has in his time here. No one else on this team right now will ever hit 100 pts. Hell, even 80-90 pts will be a career year, and is probably only attainable by Couts with a solid sniper wingman.

 

At any rate, even if it is a question of "drive" or what have you, it really doesn't change anything in terms of what this team needs imo. They need to trade Giroux, Hayes, and Voracek this off season at a minimum, and they need to start looking at stacking picks for the 2022-23-24 draft years. 2022 especially should be a high target right now, given how that year appears to be one of the best classes in quite a long time. Move those three pronto for as many relevant picks and prospects you can get, and consider moving others too if it makes sense.

 

I would keep Couts, Provo, and Hart, and some others I would likely not move unless I get a significant return, particularly TK and Farabee. But largely I think the team should be entertaining all offers and looking to get a proper rebuild started.

Edited April 3, 2021 by elmatus

[CoachX]

11 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

This may be an agree to disagree situation for us. I don't think they've lost drive or desire or will or whatever other hard to discern metric. I think they're just not skilled enough as assembled. I also don't think we have a stable that will allow us to contend any time soon. We need higher end prospects that we simply don't have right now. 

 

Giroux has been a good soldier for us. He did the best he could with the cards he was dealt. I don't think anyone aside from Lavy truly ever considered him top four in the league. He has pretty much always been top 20 or so, which is great, but that's not enough to build a contender around. His ability to play at a highly productive level for large periods of time made him hard to gauge in terms of potential. Homer and Hexy bit on the gamble that he could be that guy, and it turns out they were wrong. 

 

We can point out that he should never have been considered a franchise guy, and that's fair. The truth is that no other player on our team has been more productive than him this decade. Couts is only now getting to a level where he's comparable. Put another way, I highly doubt anyone currently on the team or in our current prospect pool will ever produce at the levels he has in his time here. No one else on this team right now will ever hit 100 pts. Hell, even 80-90 pts will be a career year, and is probably only attainable by Couts with a solid sniper wingman.

 

At any rate, even if it is a question of "drive" or what have you, it really doesn't change anything in terms of what this team needs imo. They need to trade Giroux, Hayes, and Voracek this off season at a minimum, and they need to start looking at stacking picks for the 2022-23-24 draft years. 2022 especially should be a high target right now, given how that year appears to be one of the best classes in quite a long time. Move those three pronto for as many relevant picks and prospects you can get, and consider moving others too if it makes sense.

 

I would keep Couts, Provo, and Hart, and some others I would likely not move unless I get a significant return, particularly TK and Farabee. But largely I think the team should be entertaining all offers and looking to get a proper rebuild started.

i agree to agree with this post

[FD19372]

Ek has Vince Dunn's name linked to the Flyers, again. I say mehh...Thoughts?

[OccamsRazor]

8 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

Ek has Vince Dunn's name linked to the Flyers, again. I say mehh...Thoughts?

 

If he was a right hand shot I would be more inclined to kick the tires on him for not much back in return but I can't see him helping very much.

[Cheesesteak]

3 hours ago, CoachX said:

See, I don't really get that argument. At one point he was considered top 4 in the league, and at least in the conversation. I get he was never Crosby or Ovi, and never will be. But why has his decline been so dramatic over the same time period, and theirs has not? I know the response is going to be something about how they are HOF super talents, and I get it, and agree, but I still don't see the "physical skills" decline.

because they didn't resign Jagr. 

[pilldoc]

6 minutes ago, Cheesesteak said:

because they didn't resign Jagr. 

That is not far from the truth.... I’ve said it before and it is worth repeating. One of the Flyers biggest mistakes was not resigning Jagr.

[FD19372]

1 minute ago, pilldoc said:

That is not far from the truth.... I’ve said it before and it is worth repeating. One of the Flyers biggest mistakes was not resigning Jagr.

..and putting the C on him.

[mojo1917]

15 minutes ago, Cheesesteak said:

because they didn't resign Jagr. 

You can laugh, Homer let that team twist in the wind in his quixotic quest to bring Parise and Suter.

Lost Jagr and Carle, didn't replace them with comparable players.

I've said this to anyone who would listen. 

Jagr was a great mentor to young-ish guys that were being relied on.

 

EDIT: that was the last "good team" the Flyers have iced, until last season.

 

Edited April 3, 2021 by mojo1917

[RonJeremy]

12 minutes ago, Cheesesteak said:

because they didn't resign Jagr. 

Three reasons for Girouxs decline...

A huge contract

A no trade clause
Most of all , I don’t think his offseason training routine is all that great, I think his conditioning is crap , he looks kinda doughy and he has  slowed down. I just don’t he does much training. If  he wanted to be great again, he should hire the trainer that prolonged Recchis career with special leg exercises that targeted certain muscles.  Giroux got too comfortable. MGGA....Make Giroux Great Again

[pilldoc]

5 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Jagr was a great mentor to young-ish guys that were being relied on.

Absolutely agree 1000%. Even it would have been just a year or two more of an extension would have meant the world to this team....

[RonJeremy]

2 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

Absolutely agree 1000%. Even it would have been just a year or two more of an extension would have meant the world to this team....

Jagr used to train like a madman ,running up and down the stairs of the arena before every game. So instead of our young guys watching and learning from a guy like that , they watch Giroux and Vorajoke float on the ice and eat Doritos in the locker room. If the vets play like frightened pu$$ies , how does this instill confidence in young players.

[mojo1917]

1 minute ago, RonJeremy said:

Three reasons for Girouxs decline...

A huge contract

A no trade clause
Most of all , I don’t think his offseason training routine is all that great, I think his conditioning is crap , he looks kinda doughy and he has  slowed down. I just don’t he does much training. If  he wanted to be great again, he should hire the trainer that prolonged Recchis career with special leg exercises that targeted certain muscles.  Giroux got too comfortable. MGGA....Make Giroux Great Again

 

I wonder how much sports science has changed over his career.

Not every athlete is made better with a bunch of muscles. 

I'm not saying weight training is useless or should be ignored .

Having more strength is good

I do think packing too much mass on a small frame can actually decrease performance. There reaches a point of diminished return because of skeletal structure and leverage.

There have been a lot of NFL skill position guys that have fallen in love with the way they look in the mirror only to see their performance decline- see it with a lot of 6'1" 205 recievers who bulk up to 230 and then can't get open. 

A bunch of guys are concentrating on their core and stretching- using yoga and pilates to enhance their workouts. A lot of quarterbacks have prolonged their careers by adopting less iron pushing training regimens. 

I wonder if the Flyers staff and G have been experimenting with this.

It is interesting to think about though. 

 

[mojo1917]

2 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

Jagr used to train like a madman ,running up and down the stairs of the arena before every game. So instead of our young guys watching and learning from a guy like that , they watch Giroux and Vorajoke float on the ice and eat Doritos in the locker room. If the vets play like frightened pu$$ies , how does this instill confidence in young players.

The doritos bs is speculation on your part and hurts the part where you make a decent point. 

G and V could have benefited from a more prolonged exposure to that work ethic and dedication.

Another season with Jagr could have been a profound benefit for those young players/burgeoning leaders.

[RonJeremy]

3 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

 

I wonder how much sports science has changed over his career.

Not every athlete is made better with a bunch of muscles. 

I'm not saying weight training is useless or should be ignored .

Having more strength is good

I do think packing too much mass on a small frame can actually decrease performance. There reaches a point of diminished return because of skeletal structure and leverage.

There have been a lot of NFL skill position guys that have fallen in love with the way they look in the mirror only to see their performance decline- see it with a lot of 6'1" 205 recievers who bulk up to 230 and then can't get open. 

A bunch of guys are concentrating on their core and stretching- using yoga and pilates to enhance their workouts. A lot of quarterbacks have prolonged their careers by adopting less iron pushing training regimens. 

I wonder if the Flyers staff and G have been experimenting with this.

It is interesting to think about though. 

 

Yes, I agree. Do you remember Recchis training, it was something to do with targeting fast twitch leg muscles ,core and other areas. Not really muscle mass type of training. I remember him saying it really helped prolong his career. Let’s face it, usually the first thing to go on an athlete is the legs.

[CoachX]

29 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Lost Jagr and Carle, didn't replace them with comparable players.

I've said this to anyone who would listen.

sounds familiar....

 

lost Nisky, signed Braun and Gus

 

 

 

....Carle was an oxygen thief

[mojo1917]

1 minute ago, CoachX said:

sounds familiar....

 

lost Nisky, signed Braun and Gus

 

 

 

....Carle was an oxygen thief

Yes- Carle was what he was,  his replacement was worse though. 

[RonJeremy]

3 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

The doritos bs is speculation on your part and hurts the part where you make a decent point. 

G and V could have benefited from a more prolonged exposure to that work ethic and dedication.

Another season with Jagr could have been a profound benefit for those young players/burgeoning leaders.

I cannot prove the Doritos theory ,but I suspect Jake and G are not  much into training and diet. I don’t think they are in the top percentile of conditioned players on the team.

[RonJeremy]

4 minutes ago, CoachX said:

sounds familiar....

 

lost Nisky, signed Braun and Gus

 

 

 

....Carle was an oxygen thief

Is an Oxygen thief the same as a fresh air inspector? My Grandfather always told me that should be my career.

[OccamsRazor]

36 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

Vorajoke float on the ice and eat Doritos in the locker room.

 

Yes hard to dispute this once you see his sloppy dad bod ass....check this video out and tell me.

 

Flip to like the 16 minute mark a yeah sure doesn't look like he has hit a weight since he has been in Philly.

 

 

 

I will be 50 in December so i work out no less than 4 times a week.

 

So i have worked out since i was 15 and used to be a gym rat not anymore with the full time job working 12 hours days and a family to help raise. But i make it a point to hit everyone body part once a week.

 

I'm not big 5-11 200. And carry about 12%-16% bodyfat all year around because one i don't do much cardio i don't believe in it and IF i do i do HIIT cardio.

 

But once you check Jake's body composition compared to someone like NAK and use see the big difference.

 

I wish i could find the pic i seen of him the other day but you can tell NAK puts the work in due to just seeing his body transformation over time.

 

 

 

 

Over time his commitment to weight training has added some significant muscle to his frame and that is what it takes to endure the rigors of the NHL today. Just notice is trap development.

 

 

 

Not sure how far apart the above pics were taken but i notice the difference.

 

Sure not awhole lot of difference but the picture i seen of him the other day it was just stood out to me that boy ain't playing.

 

This is their job and in order to be the best at it, it takes work on and off the ice including rest and nutrition.

 

And as @mojo1917 right or wrong i don't think G and Jake commit to this side of it like they should and well it reflects in their game.

 

As awhole i don't think Sanheim and Myers are on the right path to getting stronger and bigger.

[mojo1917]

39 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

I cannot prove the Doritos theory ,but I suspect Jake and G are not  much into training and diet. I don’t think they are in the top percentile of conditioned players on the team.

I love doritos,  they are a nemesis to my pants size.

[FD19372]

2 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Yes hard to dispute this once you see his sloppy dad bod ass....check this video out and tell me.

 

Flip to like the 16 minute mark a yeah sure doesn't look like he has hit a weight since he has been in Philly.

 

 

 

I will be 50 in December so i work out no less than 4 times a week.

 

So i have worked out since i was 15 and used to be a gym rat not anymore with the full time job working 12 hours days and a family to help raise. But i make it a point to hit everyone body part once a week.

 

I'm not big 5-11 200. And carry about 12%-16% bodyfat all year around because one i don't do much cardio i don't believe in it and IF i do i do HIIT cardio.

 

But once you check Jake's body composition compared to someone like NAK and use see the big difference.

 

I wish i could find the pic i seen of him the other day but you can tell NAK puts the work in due to just seeing his body transformation over time.

 

 

 

 

Over time his commitment to weight training has added some significant muscle to his frame and that is what it takes to endure the rigors of the NHL today. Just notice is trap development.

 

 

 

Not sure how far apart the above pics were taken but i notice the difference.

 

Sure not awhole lot of difference but the picture i seen of him the other day it was just stood out to me that boy ain't playing.

 

This is their job and in order to be the best at it, it takes work on and off the ice including rest and nutrition.

 

And as @mojo1917 right or wrong i don't think G and Jake commit to this side of it like they should and well it reflects in their game.

 

As awhole i don't think Sanheim and Myers are on the right path to getting stronger and bigger.

As I mentioned before, Club Med Philadelphia. Hexy got hard assed on them, and got canned.

[mojo1917]

2 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Yes hard to dispute this once you see his sloppy dad bod ass....check this video out and tell me.

 

Flip to like the 16 minute mark a yeah sure doesn't look like he has hit a weight since he has been in Philly.

 

 

 

I will be 50 in December so i work out no less than 4 times a week.

 

So i have worked out since i was 15 and used to be a gym rat not anymore with the full time job working 12 hours days and a family to help raise. But i make it a point to hit everyone body part once a week.

 

I'm not big 5-11 200. And carry about 12%-16% bodyfat all year around because one i don't do much cardio i don't believe in it and IF i do i do HIIT cardio.

 

But once you check Jake's body composition compared to someone like NAK and use see the big difference.

 

I wish i could find the pic i seen of him the other day but you can tell NAK puts the work in due to just seeing his body transformation over time.

 

 

 

 

Over time his commitment to weight training has added some significant muscle to his frame and that is what it takes to endure the rigors of the NHL today. Just notice is trap development.

 

 

 

Not sure how far apart the above pics were taken but i notice the difference.

 

Sure not awhole lot of difference but the picture i seen of him the other day it was just stood out to me that boy ain't playing.

 

This is their job and in order to be the best at it, it takes work on and off the ice including rest and nutrition.

 

And as @mojo1917 right or wrong i don't think G and Jake commit to this side of it like they should and well it reflects in their game.

 

As awhole i don't think Sanheim and Myers are on the right path to getting stronger and bigger.

 

Oh there is definite benefit to strength training.

 

I'm 51 and built similarly to you, 5 11 185...now in my late 30s I was 200 lbs and was pretty strong -worked out about the same amount, my joints can't take the weight anymore so i do mostly hiit body weight for strength and cardio 6 times a week.

 

At the pro sports level training and what helps performance is different I'm sure.

And I know Voracek loves beer and periogies. He used to be part owner of a brewpub. 

 

I think I remember reading about Giroux trying to do more core and flexibility off season work pre COVID.

 

[CoachX]

Gentlemen....if you aren't familiar already, and actively engaged, I recommend Kettlebells

 

At 53 years, I have found they have tranformed me physically, mentally and somewhat emotionally. I had back problems (bulging disc) that no longer are an issue

 

 

Now, back to the issue .... I love Doritos with the Lay's Nacho cheese sauce

 

Voracek makes me miss Mike York, that fat, lazy piece of dung