What is wrong with the Flyers and how do you fix it?

[elmatus]

I'm curious if anyone has a good sense of what would make for good trades and moves to get this team on a better track. 

 

Personally, I've been pretty vocal about my feelings that the team as it stands really can't win. The roster as assembled just isn't skilled enough. If it were, we wouldn't be a bubble team for ten years, consistently getting wrecked in the first round if we even make the playoffs at all. This same scenario has played out for long enough to consider that the pieces themselves as assembled just aren't good enough to win it all.

 

So, what would you do?

 

I would like to see Giroux, Hayes, and Voracek moved for good rebuild pieces. I can't say I follow other teams prospect pools very closely, so it's hard for me to really get at decent potential trades. Here's an attempt at getting the convo started:

 

First up is Giroux. I know some folks hate the guy, but the truth is he remains a very good player that any team would benefit from having. He is absolutely a top six guy on virtually any team in the NHL. That said, there's still a question of fit for a guy like Giroux. He's over 30, and probably doesn't have more than a couple seasons of really good hockey left. He also has a NMC. Both of those things suggest to me that he would have to be moved to a team that is a contender right now and is in need of a playmaking top six forward.

 

Teams I would consider buyers include: TOR, COL, CAR, EDM, VGK, FLA, TBL, MTL, NYI, WSH, PIT, BOS

 

PIT pretty clearly would never happen ever (for fear of riots in the streets), so they can be dropped immediately from the list. Of the remaining teams, I feel like shipping to a team within the division is quite unlikely generally, so let's drop NYI and WSH. The rest I do think are probably fair game.

 

What would Giroux want? Well, that's a lot harder to figure out. For the sake of this talk, I'll just assume he would be cool with going anywhere that allows him to contend in the short term -- or at least that he could be convinced to do so.

 

What's the starting point? For me, he needs to bring back a 1st round pick in 2022, and something else of considerable value (ideally a promising prospect, but other things might work too). That really should be a very minimum return for a guy of his caliber. If Fletch can't get that for a guy as productive as Giroux, he's just awful at his job.

 

Some possible options (again this is with my very limited knowledge of other prospect pools in the league):

 

VGK: Peyton Krebs and 2022 1st round pick

COL: Alex Newhook and 2022 1st round pick

MTL: Cole Caulfield and 2022 1st round pick (most unlikely imo, as i think MTL sees Caulfield as a big part of their future)

 

Second on the list is Hayes. I should start by saying I do appreciate Hayes, and I do think he's a good player to have. The contract though... I mean, it was pretty much always a mistake. Let's make it someone else's mistake while he remains a moveable asset. Unfortunately, part of that mistake includes a NMC, which means he too is probably contender bound. So we're pretty much left with the same list as those mentioned for Giroux above.

 

The other challenge is that Hayes is a depth player signed for way too long. So he simply won't command the same level of return as Giroux. I'm not sure exactly what could be the return for a guy like him, but we're probably looking at some sort of middling prospect and maybe a 2nd round pick or something or some combination of a 2nd and 3rd round pick. The crap part is that does feel like underselling him, as he is more impactful than that. Unfortunately his contract is likely to be a major burden in terms of potential trade returns.

 

Third on the list is Voracek. He has no NMC, but more than likely he too would be mostly of interest to a contender. It would be nice to get another 2022 1st round pick for him, as well as maybe a 2nd or 3rd round pick. I don't think that's unreasonable either. He may be aggravating to watch, but he does still produce at an above average clip. He could be attractive to a contender needing mid-six scoring depth, which many of them do.

 

Thoughts?

Edited April 8, 2021 by elmatus

[flyercanuck]

I would take either of your first two deals for Giroux. Funny enough, I wanted Krebs or Newhook in the draft we took York.

 

 Hayes...never wanted him. He was fine last year, but his deal isn't for one year. This year he's looked more like the 'told you so" Hayes. Only 5 more years to go. We were the only team stupid enough to give him that deal. Why would anyone take it off our hands, let alone give you a valuable asset for it? And is Fletcher going to admit this early he made a mistake?

 

 Voracek - I just don't see too many teams biting on that contract.

[ruxpin]

I would not trade Giroux, Vorachek, or Hayes for prospects or picks.  We have a lot and they're actually skilled enough.

 

Again, what we have is a radioactive core that is infecting the kids (and others) once they get here. 

 

I find it interesting--and telling--that Myers was really good in his first season and suddenly forgot how to play. More telling, and almost proof in my mind, is that Niskanen played one season on a TWO year contract and ran from the building after one season.  

 

Voracek and Giroux, in particular are aging, radioactive, and have huge contacts.  Again, I don't have specific names, but I would trade them for similarly priced and aged people with similar term.  It doesn't matter whether it appreciably alters the skill level (I'd even step back slightly) or that those coming in are younger (preferable).  The idea is to break up the generators of culture and start new on that front.  Trade for Toews, if you can.  Getzlaf.  Whatever.  Just the sooner you do this, the sooner you can even begin to correct the rest of the crew.

 

Seriously, my experience elsewhere is I haven't had to make changes at the supervisor or even floor level.  Actually, when those changes have been made, it hasn't changed anything appreciably. A couple strategic moves at senior leadership moved the needle a ton.

[OccamsRazor]

13 minutes ago, elmatus said:

I would like to see Giroux, Hayes, JVR and Voracek moved for good rebuild pieces.

 

I would agree with these moves however i had to add one.

 

And of the names listed above i think Hayes will be the one you are stuck with in the end.

 

So i think we should concentrate on just moving one for now. And that guy should Jake.

 

Number 2 to move should be JVR.

 

And Giroux as well documented here has been a disappointment to me in my expectations just ask @mojo1917 who will testify to that and he has championed defending Giroux from many of us right or wrong. Mojo has fought the good battle in that.

 

However he is only on the books for next year and well as much as i bust his balls he to me still has value here. But in my plan i have him as a 3rd liner.

 

So i wouldn't be shocked if he is resigned for something around what Coots is making and then they concetrate on resigning Coots and moving JVR and/or Jake...maybe Seattle would be interested in one but i can't say for sure.

 

So as much as we haven't been impressed with Giroux he has performed. Just look at this past dreadful month of hockey for the Flyers in March historically bad.

 

But let's compare Giroux this past month too two of the NHL top goal scorers shall we??

 

March

 

Giroux 8 goals 

Matthews 6 goals

Mcdavid 7 goals

 

So that to me shows he has at least helped in that department and pretty impressive considering Giroux is not a goal scorer.

 

So in the right role on the right line i think Giroux can concentrate on maybe being a defensive specialist like Coots was when he started and try and shut down the other teams top lines.

 

So it is critical he gets linemates who can help him excel in that role.

 

And if they remove Jake and JVR to me that is a huge win.

 

And for as much as some don't like Hayes i get it but he is tied for the team lead in goals at 3rd with 11. So the least of their worries right now.

 

The defense should be priority #1.

[OccamsRazor]

16 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

I would take either of your first two deals for Giroux.

 

Giroux stays. 

 

16 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

Hayes...never wanted him.

 

I understand but like him or not he is the teams 3rd leading goal scorer. Not going anywhere.

 

17 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

Voracek - I just don't see too many teams biting on that contract.

 

Now this we can agree on let's say stick a pin in it shall we?? I think if you pick up at least 2 mill - 3 mill of his salary you have a good chance to trade him. So let's say that frees up 5.25 mill.

 

Ghost i would pick up 2 mill of his salary and you can move him so that frees up 2.5 mill.

 

So i know it is never good to pay someone to NOT play for you it is about free up cash and a roster spot. And now you have 7.75 mill in new cap space to play with it is the only plan i think.

 

And say by the grace of God the Kraken (hey don't ruin my dream just go with me) select JVR and well now we are talking at about close to 15 mill to spend up grading the team.

 

P.S. don't wake me!!!!

[GratefulFlyers]

To me it’s crazy to retain that salary, especially that much, and I agree it’s the only way those guys get moved. 
 

I think the Voracek-hate is misguided as he’s one of the few who reliably contributes offensively. Yes he’s overpaid and he’s defensively suspect. Alert the media! We found a scoring winger who hates to backcheck lol. Seriously he’s one of the best setup guys in the league and as far as I can tell he is respected as such, except on this board.  
 

But I’m not at all against trading Voracek. If you can swap him for a career 60+pt guy do it by all means. But don’t move him just to get rid of something you (not you specifically OR) deem rotten or radioactive as one poster put it. Leaving aside the fact that fans can’t possibly know what shape “the room” is in, I just think it’s bad business to retain salary.

[PHILLY39]

I think the problem is coaching. Too many ex head coaches, too many chefs in the kitchen. Plus I think the young players are scared to make a mistake for fear of sitting in the press box. Hard to play when your nervous. Also too much talent to have a PK n PP that are that brutal,coaches for those both need to go

[PHILLY39]

Lyon would get lit up like a Christmas tree, AHLer at best

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, GratefulFlyers said:

I think the Voracek-hate is misguided as he’s one of the few who reliably contributes offensively

 

I guess if we just close our eyes to his play AWAY from the puck which is what AV is trying very hard to hammer home but to no avail....sure than he is important.

 

This ascpect is what is so important to the top teams. Just look at the Isles for example and what makes Trotz important to them is the belief is playing away from the puck to matter in fact that is how you keep it out your net and keep the puck on your stick.

 

We'll just look at Jake Voarcek more recent "good game" vs the Rangers.

 

One which he had a goal and 2 assists....yet finished -1. And we'll look past the other two most recent games where he finished pointless in both and -3 in one and -4 in the other.

 

I guess it depends on what your team goals are and what your system requires in order to be successful and Jake embodies NONE of that. 

 

There are more important things than just meaningless stats in a losing effort.

 

At the end of the day the only stat that matter are Ws. And he does not bring much of that.

[OccamsRazor]

57 minutes ago, PHILLY39 said:

I think the young players are scared to make a mistake for fear of sitting in the press box.

 

Now this i can agree with. So why are we excusing the "vets" of these mistakes??

 

Why would we look past the teachers on the ice ******** up??? And only sit the kids 

 

And too many chefs well could be true to but sorry i am not going to let these players off the hook on this.

 

Too many coaches have taken the axe so far and yet none of the players have.

 

Not buying what you are selling...

[ruxpin]

2 hours ago, elmatus said:

 

VGK: Peyton Krebs and 2022 1st round pick

COL: Alex Newhook and 2022 1st round pick

 

On the other hand, I really like either of these options.  

[CoachX]

Im so exhausted by all this, especially anyone who suggests Voracek has any value. The guy practically said it himself, giving 60 minutes isn't reality.WTF wants that on their team? You can't defend it. Its like having a player who says "I don't want to be here"

 

Keep Coots, Hayes, Provy, Farabee, Hart. Then do whatever you have to to get rid of any, or all, of the rest. Build for the future and let young players finish the season. If you're gonna keep AV, let him build his own team

 

And KEEP, KEEP, KEEP, KEEP Morin. He's the only friggin guy worth wathing

[tucson83]

 

2 hours ago, ruxpin said:

I would not trade Giroux, Vorachek, or Hayes for prospects or picks.  We have a lot and they're actually skilled enough.

 

Again, what we have is a radioactive core that is infecting the kids (and others) once they get here. 

 

I find it interesting--and telling--that Myers was really good in his first season and suddenly forgot how to play. More telling, and almost proof in my mind, is that Niskanen played one season on a TWO year contract and ran from the building after one season.  

 

Voracek and Giroux, in particular are aging, radioactive, and have huge contacts.  Again, I don't have specific names, but I would trade them for similarly priced and aged people with similar term.  It doesn't matter whether it appreciably alters the skill level (I'd even step back slightly) or that those coming in are younger (preferable).  The idea is to break up the generators of culture and start new on that front.  Trade for Toews, if you can.  Getzlaf.  Whatever.  Just the sooner you do this, the sooner you can even begin to correct the rest of the crew.

 

Seriously, my experience elsewhere is I haven't had to make changes at the supervisor or even floor level.  Actually, when those changes have been made, it hasn't changed anything appreciably. A couple strategic moves at senior leadership moved the needle a ton.

 

i mean that's the thing why in 2007 the rebuild was success because homer was going after leadership quality type of players, timms, smith, hartnell, briere, lupul, that's the thing that fletch has to do in offseason, get more cap space and try to go after leadership type of players.

Edited April 8, 2021 by tucson83

[OccamsRazor]

1 minute ago, tucson83 said:

get more cap space and try to go after leadership type of players.

 

Yes and Jake removal addresses both!!!!!!!

[OccamsRazor]

19 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Im so exhausted by all this

 

I know this horse has been beaten till it is just a pile of dust...

[ruxpin]

25 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

 

 

i mean that's the thing why in 2007 the rebuild was success because homer was going after leadership quality type of players, timms, smith, hartnell, briere, lupul, that's the thing that fletch has to do in offseason, get more cap space and try to go after leadership type of players.

Agreed.

 

I don't want to overstate what I've said (although I already have), because while 2007 is a great of example of  how this should work, there was presumably this idea when we threw Richards & Carter out.   Even in retrospect, I think the Richards & Carter reasoning was the right one, but the execution flat out sucked and it's derailed us for quite awhile.

 

So, I would still move BOTH of Giroux and Doorcheck and let's close the Amish Outhouse chapter of FlyersLivesFightForWives and move on.

Edited April 8, 2021 by ruxpin

[mojo1917]

2 hours ago, ruxpin said:

I would not trade Giroux, Vorachek, or Hayes for prospects or picks.  We have a lot and they're actually skilled enough.

 

Again, what we have is a radioactive core that is infecting the kids (and others) once they get here. 

 

I find it interesting--and telling--that Myers was really good in his first season and suddenly forgot how to play. More telling, and almost proof in my mind, is that Niskanen played one season on a TWO year contract and ran from the building after one season.  

 

Voracek and Giroux, in particular are aging, radioactive, and have huge contacts.  Again, I don't have specific names, but I would trade them for similarly priced and aged people with similar term.  It doesn't matter whether it appreciably alters the skill level (I'd even step back slightly) or that those coming in are younger (preferable).  The idea is to break up the generators of culture and start new on that front.  Trade for Toews, if you can.  Getzlaf.  Whatever.  Just the sooner you do this, the sooner you can even begin to correct the rest of the crew.

 

Seriously, my experience elsewhere is I haven't had to make changes at the supervisor or even floor level.  Actually, when those changes have been made, it hasn't changed anything appreciably. A couple strategic moves at senior leadership moved the needle a ton.

 

 

I don't know why Niskanen retired. I don't think you do either. It could be that he just bought a bitchin chainsaw and those trees by the lake aren't going to cut themselves down for all we know. Projecting your idea onto his action is just that. 

 

I also don't know if I understand how G and V ruined Myers? Are they telling him, "hey pass it away from your support ?" or "rather than taking the extra stride to get beside the cage and clear the puck high down the center of the ice just throw that **** off the high glass and hope".  I don't see where those 2 guys have that kind of influence.

 

To me it is far more likely that Myers is having a bit of a sophomore slump and is developing at the normal pace for an NHL defenseman who's also relied upon to be 2nd pair. 

 

I don't know if I quite cotton to the last paragraph either. The captains and alternates would be supervisor or floor level leaders in almost every instance I can think of aside from pick-up games.

 

Everyone here knows I don't buy into the G is suk narrative so I'm not going to dive into that anymore.

If people want him gone, fine. 

 

I'm over seeing 10k posts about how he's the reason this team is bad. 

 

 

 

[CoachX]

4 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I don't know why Niskanen retired. I don't think you do either. It could be that he just bought a bitchin chainsaw and those trees by the lake aren't going to cut themselves down for all we know.

interesting you mentioned Nisky and chainsaws

 

some people cant see the forest for the trees

[mojo1917]

35 minutes ago, CoachX said:

The guy practically said it himself, giving 60 minutes isn't reality.

No, that's not what he said.

He was talking about a team being able to control all 60 minutes of a game.

It's easy to take what he said and make it fit a narrative about not giving a ****. 

The only problem with that is it's not true.

 

I'm not going to sit here and say he doesn't take shifts off or do stupid **** away from the puck. All that is true.

This quote feels to me like it is going to become the same as Brian Campbell getting his stick on Jeff Carter's shot in 2010.  It wasn't omg miracle play, it was our guy missed the our guy missed people were wrong, but it doesn't matter. 

 

Like Giroux, people want him gone. Fine.

I hope the return is good.

 

 

 

[mojo1917]

5 minutes ago, CoachX said:

interesting you mentioned Nisky and chainsaws

 

some people cant see the forest for the trees

pulling that out of my ass, I heard he lives in the wood.  thought it would be funny.

[CoachX]

1 minute ago, mojo1917 said:

The only problem with that is it's not true.

what proof do you have?

[mojo1917]

1 minute ago, CoachX said:

what proof do you have?

The context of the conversations and the words he used.

[CoachX]

6 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

The context of the conversations and the words he used.

I think thats called interpretation

[radoran]

49 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

i mean that's the thing why in 2007 the rebuild was success because homer was going after leadership quality type of players, timms, smith, hartnell, briere

 

Thing is that these days teams aren't letting that sort of quality player get to the open market.

 

When was the last time you saw the number and quality of a Timonen/Hartnell/Briere get onto the open market?

 

Probably 2007.

[radoran]

13 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

It's easy to take what he said and make it fit a narrative about not giving a ****. 

The only problem with that is it's not true.

 

I'm not going to sit here and say he doesn't take shifts off or do stupid **** away from the puck. All that is true.

 

Pardon, but you seems to contradict yourself in your own post.

 

Voracek flat out said that "playing 60 minutes" was a "hockey cliche" and he simply doesn't believe in it. I suppose there could be a "language" thing to it, but if I'd been in Czech being interviewed on a daily basis for 13 years I'd hope I'd have a pretty firm grasp on the language.

 

That said, I don't expect him to "play 60 minutes" - I expect him to play the 16-18 minutes of the game that he's out there.

 

And by your own post, he simply doesn't do that. I don't care if he "cares" that the team loses if he's not playing his damndest to make sure they don't.

 

Play the 16-18 minutes you're given - that's why you're paid $8.25M a year.

 

It's not because your mom makes great pierogies.