What is wrong with the Flyers and how do you fix it?

[ruxpin]

6 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I'ts why you have to give something of value back. Exchanging pieces. 

 

 

Sure but how much longer you going to wait??

 

all the ones we have everyone wants gone except one.

 

And you shouldn't have to blow a hole in your roster...but give up prospects and a roster piece at least with draft picks.

 

So no NHL 2022 moves please.

 

I only want two players gone.   And just one of them might work.   They start with the same letters as "Vaginal Ggonorrhea."  Or, "Gross!  Vulgar!"

 

The rest, I don't actually have to wait.  We've already seen it.  And then it withered and died.  It's still there.  And if you get rid of one or both of the VGs, and they don't come back to life, then you get rid of them.

 

 

Barring that.  If we're going to pretend that the VeeGees aren't the problem, then I move Patrick first and foremost.    I think he's actually played better in some ways.  It's not showing on the scoreboard though.   And "better" might be only in relation to how pathetic he was.   But I also allow for the idea that at this point this season was a killer one to come back to after missing the time he did.   At some point, though, you start to run out of excuses.   I move him before other GMs run out their own excuses.   You're not getting a Kubalik or similar for him, but maybe he's the start of a package.    He's not the sort you're getting a lot for at the deadline, and no one is making that move only to expose him to the Kraken, so this is an offseason move.

 

I'm moving Raffl at the deadline, if it's me.  I really like the guy.   He's been a loyal foot soldier and filled in wherever asked.   But he's UFA this summer and is the prototypical depth rental that you get a pick and/or a prospect for because the team who gets him knows that if one of their top six goes down, he can slide up.  He won't win you anything but he'll be a competent placeholder.    At 32, man, I'd cheer for whatever team he's on because there's a guy I'd like to see win something.  Or at least experience a deep run.

 

Of the rest of the forwards making less than $7M, I'm not in a hurry.   I suppose I'd move NAK in a package, but I think it would have to be a package.  I have no idea what you possibly get for him straight up.   Except I'm fearful he's yet another example of someone who hits the black hole of our locker room, gets sucked in, and his ability disappears.  You were really high on him at one time, and I still don't think you were wrong.    Maybe some GM somewhere will think you were right, too.   Laughton is another who, like NAK, I'd move for the right deal.  I just wouldn't be enthusiastic about it.

 

I move defense in the absence of forwards to trade.   Ghost, Hagg, Braun--who Fletcher inexplicably gave TWO years.   No one in their right mind is trading for Gus at the deadline.  I don't think.   

I'm keeping Sanheim and Myers.   I think they're emblematic of the organizational dry rot I keep harping on.  I don't think Sanheim played himself into a huge contract, so he could be extended modestly.

And I don't think there's a market, but I move Elliott at the deadline if I can get someone interested.    If they can't pull down either Bernier or Reimer, I give Colorado a call.   Depending on Rask & Halak's situation, I'd kick their tires.  Even Arizona.   Hell, both goalies in St. Louis suck, maybe send him back there.

 

There are definitely some options.    And I think you're thinking the right player type.   Maybe the same type of player but on a team where he's blocked from the top 6.  No, I don't have an example.   Kubalik isn't blocked, though, and I think he's got to be in their plans.  He's been playing up roster but just has hit a rough patch so they slid him down.

 

I think Fizz is right -- I think it was Fizz -- that the NMC hampers the return on Giroux, even if he would waive it.  Because he'd naturally have a list and that reduces the return when you  limit the customer base.  And I don't think either of the VeeGees move at the deadline given their cap hit.   If they move, it would be an offseason and possibly draft time trade.

 

As much as I think it's exactly what needs to be done, I'd be beyond stunned (there is no word!) if they actually traded either of them.

 

 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

10 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I'm keeping Sanheim and Myers. 

 

Then we have to split them up and find them some help maybe new partners.

 

This kids need to be coached up....hard. Eat some ****** food. Hit the weights. Find some toughness from somewhere deep down or they are fcuked!

[ruxpin]

6 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Then we have to split them up and find them some help maybe new partners.

 

This kids need to be coached up....hard. Eat some ****** food. Hit the weights. Find some toughness from somewhere deep down or they are fcuked!

Again, I don't think that's the problem.  They played together before and did well. The near universal refrain was DON'T ever break them up.

 

I'm telling you, you can go up and down this roster and there's a similar pattern and we can get lost in the minutia of what is wrong in each case (and not be wrong, btw).  But there is an undercurrent pattern and unless we find the cause of THAT and address it, any player you move will only be replaced by the next victim of that existent pattern/cause.

 

I tell you what, though, pattern aside I also agree with the "coaching up" and those who aren't happy with the assistants. If you remember, I was looking for a bridge when their hiring was announced. They've done nothing to change my mind.   If they were moved out, I wouldn't cry.  While that would be appropriate, I don't think it solves the root cause.

[albertaflyer]

I haven't read all the comments but I'll give my two cents. One thing I have learned about the cap world by watching a team like the Oilers for the last 10 years is you can't trade your way out of bad situation. All you get is bad players for bad players or bad contracts for bad contracts. Now with the flat cap it is going to be worse. Right now the Flyers have to make a decision of on which way they want to go. Keep treading water or deal some guys like Laughton and Raffle at the deadline and look to next year.  Lets face it this team is not built for AV's system. You have to be fast and you have to want to block shots. That's the one thing AV's teams have always done is block a ton of shots. When he coached Vancouver you could barley get a shot to the net half the time. It was really frustrating to watch. This team doesn't sacrifice their body a whole lot. At least not this year. Last year they did a better job.  You can hope that Seattle would want to pick up Jake or Ghost but it's highly doubtful. One thing I can be certain the Flyers won't be losing an impact player in the expansion draft. There's going to be some teams in the division that will. Until the Flyers get a difference maker, a "star" player we will be stuck with the same average team. All the top teams have a guy that scares you when he's one the ice. The Flyers haven't had that since Lindros.  I don't know that the answer is but when someone like myself a hard core Flyers fan since I was 4 switches to baseball to watch this time of year I can't imagine what other people are doing.

Edited April 9, 2021 by albertaflyer

[FD19372]

The Flyers are reportedly shopping Nolan Patrick "hard", according to the Facebook page Flyers Nation.

 

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

5 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

The Flyers are reportedly shopping Nolan Patrick "hard", according to the Facebook page Flyers Nation.

 

 

As opposed to what.... shopping 'softly'?

[FD19372]

I don't know but I saw Holmgren shopping for wrapping paper and a bow.

Edited April 9, 2021 by FD19372

[RonJeremy]

1 hour ago, FD19372 said:

The Flyers are reportedly shopping Nolan Patrick "hard", according to the Facebook page Flyers Nation.

 

What do you think we could possibly get for him, at best a second round pick. It not really gonna help the team much. I would rather keep him for one more year and see what happens. If someone is dumb enough to offer a first or a good prospect that’s a different story.

Edited April 9, 2021 by RonJeremy

[mkscrewy]

i can't see us getting much for Patrick this season. I'd be surprised if someone gives us a good return on him.

[tucson83]

57 minutes ago, albertaflyer said:

I haven't read all the comments but I'll give my two cents. One thing I have learned about the cap world by watching a team like the Oilers for the last 10 years is you can't trade your way out of bad situation. All you get is bad players for bad players or bad contracts for bad contracts. Now with the flat cap it is going to be worse. Right now the Flyers have to make a decision of on which way they want to go. Keep treading water or deal some guys like Laughton and Raffle at the deadline and look to next year.  Lets face it this team is not built for AV's system. You have to be fast and you have to want to block shots. That's the one thing AV's teams have always done is block a ton of shots. When he coached Vancouver you could barley get a shot to the net half the time. It was really frustrating to watch. This team doesn't sacrifice their body a whole lot. At least not this year. Last year they did a better job.  You can hope that Seattle would want to pick up Jake or Ghost but it's highly doubtful. One thing I can be certain the Flyers won't be losing an impact player in the expansion draft. There's going to be some teams in the division that will. Until the Flyers get a difference maker, a "star" player we will be stuck with the same average team. All the top teams have a guy that scares you when he's one the ice. The Flyers haven't had that since Lindros.  I don't know that the answer is but when someone like myself a hard core Flyers fan since I was 4 switches to baseball to watch this time of year I can't imagine what other people are doing.

i think the only way for this to work is that have to get a vet star because if you tank for it it would very difficult for this team to get back since the lottery is rigged and you dont know how great the draft classes are going to be, it took the oilers 10 years to get mcdavid that's how difficult it is.

 

the way to manage this to trade for any star young or old that's on the block.

[mojo1917]

8 hours ago, Fizz said:

Like I said nobody is going to give that for Giroux as a rental. First you have to get him to wave his N/T clause. But hey keep living in your fantasy world.

You keep saying trade the whole team, fine and well, but how do you do it? You have to have a trading partner. No GM is going to give a better player for a lesser one. So you retain salary and give draft picks and prospects, well there goes your rebuild. You have just hamstrung the team for years to come.

In an ideal world I don't want to trade Giroux, heck, I don't want to trade him in this one.

I'm tired of reading about "he's the problem,  strip the C" etc.

 

So when I'm writing this," IDGAF trade him" it's capitulation to the tide I've resisted for 5 years.

I'm sick of the team playing below expectations,  I'm sick of reading how the one good player in the last 13 years is to blame. 

 

You caught me at a bad time, I apologize for being dismissive.

 

 

 

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

In an ideal world I don't want to trade Giroux, heck, I don't want to trade him in this one.

I'm tired of reading about "he's the problem,  strip the C" etc.

 

So when I'm writing this," IDGAF trade him" it's capitulation to the tide I've resisted for 5 years.

I'm sick of the team playing below expectations,  I'm sick of reading how the one good player in the last 13 years is to blame. 

 

You caught me at a bad time, I apologize for being dismissive.

 

 

 

Giroux is suk.

 

Whatever happened to phlfly? You figure he's enjoying a cold bowl of shchi in a gulag somewhere?

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

So when I'm writing this," IDGAF trade him" it's capitulation to the tide I've resisted for 5 years.

I'm sick of the team playing below expectations

 

 

 

[FD19372]

14 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

 

[radoran]

26 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

So when I'm writing this," IDGAF trade him" it's capitulation to the tide I've resisted for 5 years.

I'm sick of the team playing below expectations,  I'm sick of reading how the one good player in the last 13 years is to blame. 

 

I wanted this to work. I don't blame Giroux for it not working. I blame Homer and the overall mindset of the organization*.

 

I tend to like Euro players. I liked getting Voracek at the time. I thought he had a chance to be better here than Columbus.

 

I had reservations about committing the franchise to them. But I was willing to give it time.

 

But to your five year comment, It's  just become clearer and clearer that it's NOT working and I don't see the scenario in which it DOES.

 

I'm not at all HAPPY about it. It's just from where I sit time to turn the page.

[flyercanuck]

9 hours ago, tucson83 said:

then you are putting a ton of pressure on hart to play like bernie because they cant score goals, that's not fair to him and you cant win like that, look at buffalo, cant score goals throwing everything on the goalie to save their bacon look where they ended up.

 

in this era, you have to have offensive skill to win games and have good goaltending, it's not 80s and 90s where you can just grit and grind for goals and have a goalie bail you out every game, because all the good teams are going after snipers.

 

Sorry man...with all due respect...I cannot see how Patrick Laine or "Johnny Hockey" LMAO (sorry I have to include that...it'd be like calling #93 "Jake Hockey") could possibly help Carter Hart. We have a mitt full of guys exactly like those two. And they're the problem, not the solution. Adding more of them will only make it worse.

[FD19372]

4 minutes ago, radoran said:

I wanted this to work. I don't blame Giroux for it not working. I blame Homer and the overall mindset of the organization*.

From my point of view, I don't blame Giroux, besides the fact that I wish at times he would seem a bit more angry about how things are going, and not go into offensive shells.  This organization is always three steps behind or so in recognizing, or it's willingness to realize..when their way isn't working. They needed a goalie for decades. Now they have one, and they don't seem to understand how to build around him. in today's game. They built a team in the Lindros Era, obsessed with size and strength..when they needed speed and goaltending. I mean...you could go back to the 80s, and say the same thing, except those teams overachieved. They added more skill and speed back then, they could have won a Cup. They always seem to be the trend setters, instead of a team that wins and keeps up with the Joneses that are, in fact, successful. I'm sure I've said all this before, but I said it again.

[FD19372]

20 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Sorry man...with all due respect...I cannot see how Patrick Laine or "Johnny Hockey" LMAO (sorry I have to include that...it'd be like calling #93 "Jake Hockey") could possibly help Carter Hart. We have a mitt full of guys exactly like those two. And they're the problem, not the solution. Adding more of them will only make it worse.

I think Laine is soft, but talented and I don't think he would help. In the case of Gaudreau, I know he wants to be here...and I think he would play his a*s off. They need more than Gaudreau to be added up front, but he would help.

[radoran]

20 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

They needed a goalie for decades. Now they have one, and they don't seem to understand how to build around him. in today's game. They built a team in the Lindros Era, obsessed with size and strength..when they needed speed and goaltending.

 

The Legion was one of the few unstoppable forces in the history of the league.

 

They needed goaltending.

 

I love Bobby Clarke. I can't stand Bob Clarke.

 

They cheaped out on goaltending and I often think Clarke was trying to downplay the critical importance of Parent.

 

Watching "The Case for 88" I've never seen a more petulant GM than Bob Clarke.

 

I think that attitude pervades this organization* to this day.

[FD19372]

12 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

The Legion was one of the few unstoppable forces in the history of the league.

 

They needed goaltending.

 

I love Bobby Clarke. I can't stand Bob Clarke.

 

They cheaped out on goaltending and I often think Clarke was trying to downplay the critical importance of Parent.

 

Watching "The Case for 88" I've never seen a more petulant GM than Bob Clarke.

 

I think that attitude pervades this organization* to this day.

The Lindros teams needed speed and snipers on lines 2-4, but I agree with you say here, 100%. It was as if Clarke was saying then that, in his era The Bullies were why they won two Cups, and the goaltending of Parent was probably at least 60& of the reason they won those Cups IN REALITY. So, they neglected goaltending in large part in the 90s.

Edited April 10, 2021 by FD19372

[radoran]

5 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

the goaltending of Parent was probably at least 60& of the reason they won those Cups.

 

I was at UVM with John LeClair who is forever my favorite hockey player.

 

Bernie Parent is far and away my favorite all time Flyer.

 

Only God saves more than Bernie Parent.

 

[OccamsRazor]

22 minutes ago, radoran said:

They cheaped out on goaltending and I often think Clarke was trying to downplay the critical importance of Parent.

 

Amen.

 

[mojo1917]

1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

Giroux is suk.

 

Whatever happened to phlfly? You figure he's enjoying a cold bowl of shchi in a gulag somewhere?

Winter is Beautiful year round in Sibera!

[ruxpin]

15 hours ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

 

As opposed to what.... shopping 'softly'?

Shopping lazily, aimlessly, and mindlessly.

 

Because it's the Flyer way.

[ruxpin]

15 hours ago, FD19372 said:

I don't know but I saw Holmgren shopping for wrapping paper and a bow.

 

New bike?