What is wrong with the Flyers and how do you fix it?

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, flyer4ever said:

I can't believe how many people are saying we need a veteran on this topic.

 

They do. The vet they have can not provide the sand paper they need and they don't have it in the ranks of their farm system.

 

You can still go young, which they are already doing and add the right vet presence they need to guide them along the path.

 

Yeah you know you can do both. It is allowed. It isn't like Tampa just won the Cup with all home grown kids or vets along the way to get them to where they are now.

[elmatus]

6 hours ago, flyer4ever said:

Without hurting anyone's feelings, I can't believe how many people are saying we need a veteran on this topic. That approach hasn't worked for anyone since the salary cap. Veteran equals slow, soft, and cap crunch. It also equals dysfunction in the room. I think thats obvious after this season. The Flyers are not one or 2 vets away, they are 2 or 3 dmen and 2 lines away, if the goalie returns to form. Tampa is not a fast team, they are an all for 1 team with hockey smarts.  Bigger, younger, faster is the way to go, and if it takes a year or 3 so be it. Drafting 14th also won't get it done. Ottawa was a great team to watch this year, the Flyers were by far the most boring, and they are closer to a cup than the Flyers. A vet or 2 gives us more of the same. Making the playoffs in the 8 seed is a fools errand, we have all seen that lousy movie frequently. Time to try a different approach, 46 years was a long time ago.

 

I agree with you that a vet won’t make this current team relevant. That said, it’s definitely true that a good team can be aided by getting a veteran presence on the ice. That’s certainly not rare. Most times this happens in the form of rentals obtained at the deadline, and there’s any number of teams who go on deep runs with that. 

 

But yes, i agree with you that bringing in a vet won’t be enough for this squad. This team has far more important needs right now — needs that won’t be solved by getting some sort of grizzly vet. 

 

It’s also worth noting that it’s not like any vet can do what would be asked in this case. We have plenty of « vets » right now, but it’s not helping our major issues. We need firepower first and foremost, and we also need an improved defense core. A solid dman vet might help with the second point, but not the first.

Edited May 21, 2021 by elmatus

[CoachX]

21 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

I agree with you that a vet won’t make this current team relevant. That said, it’s definitely true that a good team can be aided by getting a veteran presence on the ice. That’s certainly not rare. Most times this happens in the form of rentals obtained at the deadline, and there’s any number of teams who go on deep runs with that. 

 

But yes, i agree with you that bringing in a vet won’t be enough for this squad. This team has far more important needs right now — needs that won’t be solved by getting some sort of grizzly vet. 

 

It’s also worth noting that it’s not like any vet can do what would be asked in this case. We have plenty of « vets » right now, but it’s not helping our major issues. We need firepower first and foremost, and we also need an improved defense core. A solid dman vet might help with the second point, but not the first.

I disagree. We saw last season that this team was very good offensively. So what happened this season? I don't think they got worse, I think key players, for whatever reason, quit. To suggest a veteran player could come in and add that single needed offensive punch, I don't see it. I think ths is what you are saying. But a guy who can come in and play hard, without being drug into the locker room BS of prima dona players, could be very effective. A young guy like NAK, Farabee, Allison, could learn from that guy, just like Provy and the D did from Nisky. And if he is a guy with snarl, who might tell Voracek to get his heed (Mike Myers movie reference) out of his ass, smack JVR's helmet straight and get on the rest of the p-willows, he would be very valuable. Even more so, if said veteran went out on the ice and showed the correct way to play, and maybe whipped a few asses of the opposition. I certainly don't like Lucic, but he has that kind of Moxie. I remember how effective Gary Roberts was in that role for PISSberg. He even kicked the $hit out of a young flyer who thought he could try the old vet

 

Your POV about the D? Spot on. They blow goats

 

oh, and I also wanted to mention, Jagr was one helluva old vet presence for the Flyers not to long ago

 

Found it!

 

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by CoachX

[OccamsRazor]

16 minutes ago, CoachX said:

I certainly don't like Lucic, but he has that kind of Moxie.

 

Exactly i'm not the biggest fan either but he is what this club could use.

 

He would be there to hold some of these clowns accountable.

 

I'm sure why some here think that you have to fill the team with kids and then in 5 years go get the vets to make a run.

 

That isn't the right way, you have to get a few (the ones they have aren't it as we have seen)to guide the kids along the way till the club is ready.

 

They could even be gone by the time that happens but the time they spent here serve the purpose of showing the kids.

 

And it doesn't matter so much which order you do it in as long as you do it. The Flyers don't have any of those types in the system expect maybe Wisdom but he is a few years away.

 

Anyways i have some drinking to do on the back porch and watch the sun go down.

 

Cheers.

[CoachX]

1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Exactly i'm not the biggest fan either but he is what this club could use.

 

He would be there to hold some of these clowns accountable.

 

I'm sure why some here think that you have to fill the team with kids and then in 5 years go get the vets to make a run.

 

That isn't the right way, you have to get a few (the ones they have aren't it as we have seen)to guide the kids along the way till the club is ready.

 

They could even be gone by the time that happens but the time they spent here serve the purpose of showing the kids.

 

And it doesn't matter so much which order you do it in as long as you do it. The Flyers don't have any of those types in the system expect maybe Wisdom but he is a few years away.

 

Anyways i have some drinking to do on the back porch and watch the sun go down.

 

Cheers.

HERE COMES THE WEEKEND!

 

[elmatus]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

We saw last season that this team was very good offensively. So what happened this season?

 

Last season P/PG (69 games max):

Couts: 0.86 (59)

Voracek: 0.81 (56)

Giroux: 0.77 (53)

AVG g/pg: 3.4

 

This season P/PG (56 games max):

Couts: 0.91 (41)

Voracek: 0.81 (43)

Giroux: 0.80 (43)

Avg g/pg: 2.9

 

The three players most expected to carry our offense scored at a higher clip per game this season than last. Those numbers were good enough to rank the team 6th in goals for last season and 19th this season. League-wide, teams appear to be scoring way more this season. So despite those three being more productive, we slid to being way lower down the list.

 

The one very noticeable difference offensively is TK, who only had about half the p/pg avg this season he had last season. Is he just in a slump? Hopefully. Was last season an anomaly for him? Hopefully not, but it's certainly possible. Did something else happen to him to throw him off his game? Bad conditioning? Drugs? Covid? Who knows?

 

And for folks who don't like stats, I've watched the Bruins/Caps, Habs/Leafs, and Panthers/Bolts to date, and I have zero doubt whatsoever that all of those teams are significantly better than our current Flyers roster. They're faster. They're way more skilled, and they pressure the puck in a way our team hasn't done in ten years. We need far far more than some 30ish vet dman to salvage this mess.

 

And for the record, I would have taken an in-his-prime Lucic any day of the week, as would any true Flyers fan if we're being honest. I'm not sure he can skate anymore though, so he's probably not worth the effort.

Edited May 22, 2021 by elmatus

[Buffalo Rick]

On 5/18/2021 at 10:25 AM, Bertmega said:

Haven't said this for about a decade: Shut up Rick; the Sabres blow. 

 

Now go warm up that jalopy Lumina of yours, and head on over to Applebee's for some gross ass halibut. 

 

Man that felt good. 

The Flyers blow too

[tucson83]

12 hours ago, elmatus said:

 

Last season P/PG (69 games max):

Couts: 0.86 (59)

Voracek: 0.81 (56)

Giroux: 0.77 (53)

AVG g/pg: 3.4

 

This season P/PG (56 games max):

Couts: 0.91 (41)

Voracek: 0.81 (43)

Giroux: 0.80 (43)

Avg g/pg: 2.9

 

The three players most expected to carry our offense scored at a higher clip per game this season than last. Those numbers were good enough to rank the team 6th in goals for last season and 19th this season. League-wide, teams appear to be scoring way more this season. So despite those three being more productive, we slid to being way lower down the list.

 

The one very noticeable difference offensively is TK, who only had about half the p/pg avg this season he had last season. Is he just in a slump? Hopefully. Was last season an anomaly for him? Hopefully not, but it's certainly possible. Did something else happen to him to throw him off his game? Bad conditioning? Drugs? Covid? Who knows?

 

And for folks who don't like stats, I've watched the Bruins/Caps, Habs/Leafs, and Panthers/Bolts to date, and I have zero doubt whatsoever that all of those teams are significantly better than our current Flyers roster. They're faster. They're way more skilled, and they pressure the puck in a way our team hasn't done in ten years. We need far far more than some 30ish vet dman to salvage this mess.

 

And for the record, I would have taken an in-his-prime Lucic any day of the week, as would any true Flyers fan if we're being honest. I'm not sure he can skate anymore though, so he's probably not worth the effort.

 

that's true, i look at this team they look slow at heck, i know chuck wants speed on this roster, that's what alot of the players that he drafted have. the difficult part is what players on this team isnt fast and declining.

[CoachX]

This is why stats dont always tell the story. Im not really asking what happened, im just pointing out that a season ago they were offensively effective, which showed in W's and playoffs

 

So they dont necessarily need veteran players to replace their offensive players, they need vets who play the gane right and dont act like overpaid asses who could give a fck

[elmatus]

36 minutes ago, CoachX said:

This is why stats dont always tell the story. Im not really asking what happened, im just pointing out that a season ago they were offensively effective, which showed in W's and playoffs

 

So they dont necessarily need veteran players to replace their offensive players, they need vets who play the gane right and dont act like overpaid asses who could give a fck

i get what you’re saying. I’m not sure i agree with the idea they don’t give a fck though. I still think the most logical reason why these core players have led to nothing more than a bubble team at best over the last decade is that they’re just not good enough. 
 

put another way, it seems far more likely last season was an anomaly than assuming the one reasonable season out if the last ten was somehow indicative of this team’s ability. 
 

and even then, they were wrecked once they got to the games that actually mattered, which only reinforces the idea that last reg season was an outlier for this crew. 

[ruxpin]

4 hours ago, Hockey Junkie said:

The Flyers blow too

There is absolutely no holes in that argument (I mean they legitimately and with no sarcasm).

[tucson83]

2 hours ago, CoachX said:

This is why stats dont always tell the story. Im not really asking what happened, im just pointing out that a season ago they were offensively effective, which showed in W's and playoffs

 

So they dont necessarily need veteran players to replace their offensive players, they need vets who play the gane right and dont act like overpaid asses who could give a fck

not just that, the other reason you get vets is because some of the players you are looking to replace that fit what your looking for isnt in the farm system, that's why you cant just rely on drafted players. all 30 teams that draft take players what you are looking for and you have to a different approach aka vets or else, you are going to lose more games that way.

[RonJeremy]

On 5/22/2021 at 10:48 AM, elmatus said:

i get what you’re saying. I’m not sure i agree with the idea they don’t give a fck though. I still think the most logical reason why these core players have led to nothing more than a bubble team at best over the last decade is that they’re just not good enough. 
 

put another way, it seems far more likely last season was an anomaly than assuming the one reasonable season out if the last ten was somehow indicative of this team’s ability. 
 

and even then, they were wrecked once they got to the games that actually mattered, which only reinforces the idea that last reg season was an outlier for this crew. 

When you have a team like the Flyers with good but not great players, the only way you can be successful is to have a balanced team that can play with some skill as well as some grit. Good goaltending and steady defense. It has to be  a total team effort and you have to out work the other team. Everyone has to be on board. We don’t have any superstars to take over and win a game for us. Our 1985 and 1987 teams on paper were not the most skilled but we came to play every night and everyone put in 100% and we went to the Cup twice. We are not gonna suddenly find a McDavid or guys like that , so we have to build a balanced team with no slackers.

[mojo1917]

@OccamsRazor

I don't think todays Lucic is an answer. I don't think he's good at hockey anymore.

 

Seth Jones could be.

So could over paying Dougie Hamilton.

The middle 6 guy, a Hathaway/Coleman/Hornquist type player checks the Lucic boxes.

 

Who can the team target as a shooter/scorer? 

RNH? Sam Reinhart?

[OccamsRazor]

7 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I don't think he's good at hockey anymore.

 

He scored more goals than Jake in the bottom 6 for the Flames so if you could swap him for Ghost and the pick up about 750k to even it out I would take him in a support role he could provide what they lack.

 

And you would move out Ghost for something back. Ghost doesn't seem to fit here and the contracts are the same.

 

I would still be open to adding Seth Jones.

 

Maybe you can convince them to pick up even more of Lucic's cap hit its possible.

[FD19372]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

Who can the team target as a shooter/scorer? 

RNH? Sam Reinhart?

I would take Reinhart, of the two. Less $...not by a lot...but the fact remains. I like both, though.

[RonJeremy]

10 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

I would take Reinhart, of the two. Less $...not by a lot...but the fact remains. I like both, though.

I agree. I also think that Farabee is gonna score even more than we expect and I think Allison is gonna be a big PP sniper for us. I also believe that with York on the PP he will give us more finesse and skill, maybe we can finally take Jake off the point. We also have to believe Patrick is gonna be much better , you can’t get much worse than his past season ,he has nowhere to go but up. Re-up him for one year at no more than one million and throw in incentives for scoring goals . 

Edited May 24, 2021 by RonJeremy

[FD19372]

1 minute ago, RonJeremy said:

We also have to believe Patrick is gonna be much better

I don't. We should sell high on Patrick. This might be the opportunity.

[RonJeremy]

1 minute ago, FD19372 said:

I don't. We should sell high on Patrick. This might be the opportunity.

He is totally worthless right now, we really don’t need a third round pick so badly. It’s worth investing a one year , one million dollar contract and let him play half a season, then decide from there if we want him or not. If he plays well ,then his value increases to the team or for trade, if he doesn’t, then he is just as worthless in 6 months as he is today. Think about it, our entire team sucked except for maybe three players. If everyone sucked ,how can we expect a guy who missed 16 months to be good when nobody else was. It’s in our best interest to keep him , he is not costing us much and with Hayes having core surgery, we need a center . At this point, Patrick is not gonna be a dealbreaker in any trade we make any way.

[ruxpin]

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

He scored more goals than Jake in the bottom 6 for the Flames so if you could swap him for Ghost and the pick up about 750k to even it out I would take him in a support role he could provide what they lack.

 

And you would move out Ghost for something back. Ghost doesn't seem to fit here and the contracts are the same.

 

I would still be open to adding Seth Jones.

 

Maybe you can convince them to pick up even more of Lucic's cap hit its possible.

 

Honestly, I want nothing to do with Lucic.   We'll hate him as much as Voracek before it's over.    Really want nothing to do with him.    I like the idea but right church wrong pew.

[OccamsRazor]

42 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

Honestly, I want nothing to do with Lucic.   We'll hate him as much as Voracek before it's over.    Really want nothing to do with him.    I like the idea but right church wrong pew.

 

Yeah well I have stated my side of it and am done commenting on it.

 

Won't matter no way Chuckles will sign some cheap forward in the Erik Gustafsson type realm and say he didn't see anything they liked...

 

[mojo1917]

28 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Yeah well I have stated my side of it and am done commenting on it.

 

Won't matter no way Chuckles will sign some cheap forward in the Erik Gustafsson type realm and say he didn't see anything they liked...

 

If that happens I hope he gets fired.

He will have earned it.

[flyer4ever]

7 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

When you have a team like the Flyers with good but not great players, the only way you can be successful is to have a balanced team that can play with some skill as well as some grit. Good goaltending and steady defense. It has to be  a total team effort and you have to out work the other team. Everyone has to be on board. We don’t have any superstars to take over and win a game for us. Our 1985 and 1987 teams on paper were not the most skilled but we came to play every night and everyone put in 100% and we went to the Cup twice. We are not gonna suddenly find a McDavid or guys like that , so we have to build a balanced team with no slackers.

The 85 team had ONE regular in the lineup over 26 yrs old, Mark Howe. He was 29. The captain Dave Poulin, was 26. There were 7 regulars in the lineup 21 or younger. Marsh, McCrimmon and Crossman were 25, 25 and 24. Pelle Lindbergh was 25 and the backup, Bob Froese was 25. The notion that you have to have veterans is pretty much put to bed when you look at the roster of this team. They drafted guys who had character and guts to go with their skill. The y were molded into a team that would do anything for each other by Mike Keenan. This can be accomplished today, but it requires some work by your scouts and having a coach whose system is based on trying to win, not playing to not lose, and having the balls to let the kids learn on the job. And, they were fun to watch, win or lose.

[flyercanuck]

2 hours ago, FD19372 said:

I don't. We should sell high on Patrick. This might be the opportunity.

 

I'd sell high on every single player on the team if we could.

[OccamsRazor]

23 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

I'd sell high on every single player on the team if we could.

 

Yeah but high on what?