What is wrong with the Flyers and how do you fix it?

[Cheesesteak]

7 hours ago, Lindbergh31 said:

 He needs to determine who his core group is and then start adding pieces to that core and if that means suffering through a couple of bad seasons to having a contending team like Tampa is now then I'm all for it. Problem with Philly is they don't know how to rebuild properly, see the early 90's for example.

haven't we been doing that for @10 years now? 

[SCFlyguy]

2 minutes ago, Cheesesteak said:

haven't we been doing that for @10 years now? 

Absolutely not.

 

Breaking the team down for a rebuild would have involved trading Giroux, Simmons, etc. in 2015 or 2016 and not making moves for MacDonald and Lecavalier.  

[Lindbergh31]

7 hours ago, CoachX said:

I just don't understand this logic

I'm just curious do think AV did a good job last year.

[flyercanuck]

13 minutes ago, Lindbergh31 said:

I'm just curious do think AV did a good job last year.

 

LMAO!

[CoachX]

1 minute ago, Lindbergh31 said:

I'm just curious do think AV did a good job last year.

Absolutley! And I'm not alone. He was one of three finalists for the Jack Adams award. You don't get that by sucking. He had this team playing at a very high level, and was one of the hottest teams in the league prior to the shut down. After the shutdown, they took the first seed and won the first round of the playoffs. If you want to blame him for the Islander series, that's fine. I don't.

 

I'm not sure how it can be said he did a bad job

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

42 minutes ago, Cheesesteak said:

haven't we been doing that for @10 years now? 

 

The Flyers have been stuck believing they're perennial contenders and that they're only 'one or two pieces' away. If they would have torn down and rebuilt properly, they would have been much further ahead. Instead, our youth ended up suffering and learning bad habits from veterans who should have been moved out and coaches who had no time or patience for young players. There was no plan in place. It was acquire a nice shiny asset and that'll fix everything. 

[Lindbergh31]

51 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Absolutley! And I'm not alone. He was one of three finalists for the Jack Adams award. You don't get that by sucking. He had this team playing at a very high level, and was one of the hottest teams in the league prior to the shut down. After the shutdown, they took the first seed and won the first round of the playoffs. If you want to blame him for the Islander series, that's fine. I don't.

 

I'm not sure how it can be said he did a bad job

Well he wasn't totally at fault for the Islanders series but he didn't make adjustments in that series either.

[CoachX]

2 minutes ago, Lindbergh31 said:

Well he wasn't totally at fault for the Islanders series but he didn't make adjustments in that series either.

to clarify, when you asked the question, I jumped to the 2019-2020 season. Reading back, maybe I misunderstood. Did you mean the season that just wrapped up?

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

2 hours ago, Lindbergh31 said:

I'm just curious do think AV did a good job last year.

No, not at all. At the beginning of the year, the team wasn't playing well and they were getting bailed out by the goaltending. Once that faltered, Vigneault simply lost the group and it was made very clear when he was asked what was going on and why the team was doing poorly and his response was I don't know.  And then afterwards, he then said he wasn't in the room with guys. There's a disconnect there and the fact that every player on the team took a major step back should be sounding alarms to everyone. 

 

I think it's more than just Vigneault though. I think his assistants don't necessarily share his views on how the game should be played and the system to use and it showed.  

 

This also started last year once the playoffs rolled around. Vigneault completely abandoned his game that was working well with the club and he went straight to a lock down system. Montreal exposed how awful the system was and the Islanders made them play. He didn't adjust his system either, which was incredibly baffling.  I'm still not sure why he fundamentally changed the game plan going into the playoffs when they were firing on all cylinders. 

 

But Vigneault also does this everywhere he goes. He did it in Montreal, Vancouver, New York and now here. 

 

This is a big year for him.  If they come out the gate slow, he's dead man walking. I figure by the time game 15 rolls around, it'll be the indicator. If they're above .500, he stays.  If they're below, he's gone. 

[CoachX]

@BobbyClarkeFan16

 

I'm not arguing against your POV. You could be spot on. From what i've read, and watched, i think there is a total break down within the locker room and players have checked out, or quit on the team. I think Voracek and JVR are most likely the focal point of the issue.

 

By AV not being fired, the organization sent a message to the players that the coach won't be the fall guy. If major changes are made, it will solidify the way I feel (at least in my mind).

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

3 minutes ago, CoachX said:

@BobbyClarkeFan16

 

I'm not arguing against your POV. You could be spot on. From what i've read, and watched, i think there is a total break down within the locker room and players have checked out, or quit on the team. I think Voracek and JVR are most likely the focal point of the issue.

 

By AV not being fired, the organization sent a message to the players that the coach won't be the fall guy. If major changes are made, it will solidify the way I feel (at least in my mind).

 

@CoachXI'm hopeful that whatever it is can be identified. If it's players, then they need to go. If it's coaches, they need to go. Part of me really hates how the coaching staff is arranged. Vigneault should have looked for sobriety who can relate to and is good with young players. Therrien is a prick and was hated everywhere he coached. Yeo just send to free indifferent. I did think it was trekking though when Laperriere was named had coach in Lehigh Valley, he mentioned that he wanted to bring players up when they weren't doing well because the last thing someone needs is to be chewed out when their confidence is low. I'm wondering if maybe that was a subtle shot at the current coaching staff and their approach to players.  I could see something like that definitely being fired towards Therrien. 

[CoachX]

16 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

But Vigneault also does this everywhere he goes. He did it in Montreal, Vancouver, New York and now here.

In all 3 of those places he had success, particularly Van and NY. He has been nominated for Jack Adam's award several times, winning once. This is not a guy who can't coach, or doesn't know what he's doing.

 

Personally, I'm getting tired of players who whine and complain that coaches are too tough on them. These players want to make millions, gain fame and celebrity, and hopefully win various things. Well if you want that, be that! You are being paid to perform for your employer. If I went to work and whined about my supervisor and tried to demand he be replaced, I would probably be assigned to protect a telephone pole in the winter, on route 66

[RonJeremy]

On 6/18/2021 at 5:00 PM, Lindbergh31 said:

Well he wasn't totally at fault for the Islanders series but he didn't make adjustments in that series either.

He couldn’t make the adjustments because we didn’t have the personel. The Islanders were much bigger and stronger and dominated the boards and the front of our net, they were also much faster and  more skilled and controlled the play the majority of the time. They skated circles around us and punished us physically. We were totally outplayed by  both Montreal and the Islanders. We only beat Montreal because of Hart, the Islanders dominated us,we were lucky we got as far as we did.

Edited June 20, 2021 by RonJeremy

[flyer4ever]

22 hours ago, CoachX said:

In all 3 of those places he had success, particularly Van and NY. He has been nominated for Jack Adam's award several times, winning once. This is not a guy who can't coach, or doesn't know what he's doing.

 

Personally, I'm getting tired of players who whine and complain that coaches are too tough on them. These players want to make millions, gain fame and celebrity, and hopefully win various things. Well if you want that, be that! You are being paid to perform for your employer. If I went to work and whined about my supervisor and tried to demand he be replaced, I would probably be assigned to protect a telephone pole in the winter, on route 66

I can't get past the quitting and giving up multiple times last season. The best part of hockey is the high you get from trying your best, every shift, win or lose. I would trade every guy on that roster for the right return. So far I have seen no indication from Chuck or the coaches that says quitting is unacceptable and won't be tolerated.

Happy Fathers Day !

[flyercanuck]

12 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

He couldn’t make the adjustments because we didn’t have the personel. The Islanders were much bigger and stronger and dominated the boards and the front of our net, they were also much faster and  more skilled and controlled the play the majority of the time. They skated circles around us and punished us physically. We were totally outplayed by  both Montreal and the Islanders. We only beat Montreal because of Hart, the Islanders dominated us,we were lucky we got as far as we did.

 

Well he could have stopped sending the slowest guy in the NHL out against the fastest guy on the Isles every shift...I mean I'm not a pro hockey coach but a complete idiot could see that wasn't working.

[flyercanuck]

27 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

I can't get past the quitting and giving up multiple times last season. The best part of hockey is the high you get from trying your best, every shift, win or lose. I would trade every guy on that roster for the right return. So far I have seen no indication from Chuck or the coaches that says quitting is unacceptable and won't be tolerated.

Happy Fathers Day !

 

 I find it hard that almost every player on the team looked like they gave up. All those young players who looked like they were coming along nicely regressed to a man (except Farabee). I've never seen that happen before in my life.

 

 Happy Fathers Day to you to, and to all the dads on the board!

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

55 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

I can't get past the quitting and giving up multiple times last season. The best part of hockey is the high you get from trying your best, every shift, win or lose. I would trade every guy on that roster for the right return. So far I have seen no indication from Chuck or the coaches that says quitting is unacceptable and won't be tolerated.

Happy Fathers Day !

 

Quitting and giving up is also a sign that something else is incredibly wrong there. Players have been moved, coaches have been fired,  GMs have been fired. There is something fundamentally flawed.  I'm wondering if leadership is the problem. I mean, we all hear that Giroux is a quiet leader on the ice and he needed to have a 'bad' cop in the locker room.  Maybe the Flyers need a more vocal leader on the ice and someone who isn't afraid to hold people accountable,  regardless. I'm also wondering if maybe from the days of Primeau, the Flyers captains have all had cosy relationships with the coaching staffs and maybe let the coaching staffs off the hook for game planning and let them deal with holding players accountable instead of the captains. Personally, I don't think a coach holding a player accountable carries the same weight as a captain or teammate.  Maybe there needs to be a shift in power structure when it comes to holding players accountable and I'll give an example. 

 

We all know this past season,  Konecny was scratched because the Flyers were slumping as a team. Vigneault decides to hold a young player accountable and makes an example out of Konecny (when let's be honest, he was the last of the worries as he was still out there hustling and bustling and not missing assignments). Maybe if the captain called players out, this doesn't happen. But instead, the captain leaves it up to the coach and rather than call out one of the veterans who were performing poorly (in looking at Hayes,  Voracek, and Giroux), Vigneault plays politics and avoids the long tenured players in the league and scratches a younger player instead.  Vigneault tries to curry favors with veterans instead in the hopes they promote his message. If Giroux steps up and says "hey, us as veterans aren't doing our part and myself, Voracek and Hayes need to be doing more", maybe that dynamic changes how the team performs, but he doesn't.

 

It might be an 'out there' theory,  but I've seen this happen in other work environments and it seems to be what's going on here. Maybe it's time for a full house cleaning, regardless of status within the organization.

Edited June 20, 2021 by BobbyClarkeFan16

[RonJeremy]

5 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Well he could have stopped sending the slowest guy in the NHL out against the fastest guy on the Isles every shift...I mean I'm not a pro hockey coach but a complete idiot could see that wasn't working.

That part is true, but either way we need to improve those areas. I’m still shocked that the Flyers, who were always one of the hardest working teams with lots of physical player has just ignored the fact that we have been physically dominated and pushed around for the last ten years or so. They have made  finally made attempts at upping the speed and skill with some of our recent draft picks like Farabee , Frost ,and  York and hopefully some of the bugger guys like Allison, Foerester Wisdom and Lacyzinski can eventually help in the hitting and winning some battles on the  boards.

[CoachX]

24 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

.I mean I'm not a pro hockey coach but a complete idiot could see that wasn't working

I SAW IT!

[CoachX]

21 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

Quitting and giving up is also a sign that something else is incredibly wrong there. Players have been moved, coaches have been fired,  GMs have been fired. There is something fundamentally flawed.  I'm wondering if leadership is the problem. I mean, we all hear that Giroux is a quiet leader on the ice and he needed to have a 'bad' cop in the locker room.  Maybe the Flyers need a more vocal leader on the ice and someone who isn't afraid to hold people accountable,  regardless. I'm also wondering if maybe from the days of Primeau, the Flyers captains have all had cosy relationships with the coaching staffs and maybe let the coaching staffs off the hook for game planning and let them deal with holding players accountable instead of the captains. Personally, I don't think a coach holding a player accountable carries the same weight as a captain or teammate.  Maybe there needs to be a shift in power structure when it comes to holding players accountable and I'll give an example. 

 

We all know this past season,  Konecny was scratched because the Flyers were slumping as a team. Vigneault decides to hold a young player accountable and makes an example out of Konecny (when let's be honest, he was the last of the worries as he was still out there hustling and bustling and not missing assignments). Maybe if the captain called players out, this doesn't happen. But instead, the captain leaves it up to the coach and rather than call out one of the veterans who were performing poorly (in looking at Hayes,  Voracek, and Giroux), Vigneault plays politics and avoids the long tenured players in the league and scratches a younger player instead.  Vigneault tries to curry favors with veterans instead in the hopes they promote his message. If Giroux steps up and says "hey,  is a veterans aren't doing our part and myself, Voracek and Hayes need to be doing more", maybe that dynamic changes how the team performs, but he doesn't.

 

It might be an 'out there' theory,  but I've seen this happen in other work environments and it seems to be what's going on here. Maybe it's time for a full house cleaning, regardless of status within the organization.

AV had no problem calling out the veterans in public. The premise that he only targeted young guys, is inaccurate

 

Firing him would once again, embolden the prima dona players 

[CoachX]

17 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

That part is true, but either way we need to improve those areas. I’m still shocked that the Flyers, who were always one of the hardest working teams with lots of physical player has just ignored the fact that we have been physically dominated and pushed around for the last ten years or so. They have made  finally made attempts at upping the speed and skill with some of our recent draft picks like Farabee , Frost ,and  York and hopefully some of the bugger guys like Allison, Foerester Wisdom and Lacyzinski can eventually help in the hitting and winning some battles on the  boards.

To this point, I put blame on AV. We have players who are allegedly edgy. He could encourage that style a little more

[OccamsRazor]

13 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

They skated circles around us and punished us physically.

 

Well that isn't an element that is going to change much till you change the personnel.

 

So this is why i was game or mentioning the Charmin twins on the trading block for the pieces you need. I just don't have faith in these two just suddenly being able to physical like the Flyers need to combat that.

 

Can't we waste time trying to paint stripes on these kitties??

 

But i would be happy to listen to someone who has a plan on how to make this blueline tougher and able to handle the battles it will be facing if it ever wanted to make a run for a Cup...

 

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

AV had no problem calling out the veterans in public.

 

Calling them out is all well and good but if you want to seed a damn message scratch them and have them on popcorn patrol.

 

But i don't remember ever seeing that. The Inmates are running the asylum in Philly.

 

[Lindbergh31]

On 6/18/2021 at 5:04 PM, CoachX said:

to clarify, when you asked the question, I jumped to the 2019-2020 season. Reading back, maybe I misunderstood. Did you mean the season that just wrapped up?

Yes I was referring to the 2020-2021 season.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

So we're all in agreement then - a number of veterans must be moved and the coaching staff needs a short leash while management needs to put a stamp on this club in terms of identity and style.