What is wrong with the Flyers and how do you fix it?

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

I wonder if there is a scenario where the Flyers get both Eichel and Jones

Not unless they want to completely gut their roster, farm system and draft picks. 

[radoran]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

I wonder if there is a scenario where the Flyers get both Eichel and Jones

 

So, the solution to not being a mediocre team is to get one player from the Blue Jackets and another one from the Sabres?

 

 

17 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

Not unless they want to completely gut their roster, farm system and draft picks. 

 

Yeah, this is the thing. Both of those teams are also trying to become not a mediocre, middling organization (or worse) and aren't sitting around thinking about how they can make the Flyers better.

 

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

I think Giroux comes off the books

 

I'm betting they extend Giroux before next season starts. So the question is whether he takes enough of a "discount" to fit Jones long term.

 

Also, too, whether Jones wants to extend long term here. I haven't seen him say that he only wants to test free agency because he's in Columbus. Like Hamilton, this is his shot at free agency in his prime.

 

The Flyers have the same number of playoff round wins in the past nine years  that the Blue Jackets do... Columbus actually has more playoff appearances.

 

True story.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

Once again,  we're witnessing what happens when you fail to build a team properly.  When you can't identify who you're franchise cornerstones are and are in a mad rush to compete that cutting corners is the norm,  this is exactly what you get. 

 

The fact that there has clearly been a lack of a plan going forward on how to properly build means were stuck in this perpetual cycle until ownership decides they've had enough, cuts out the garbage from consultants, management, etc and decides to give hockey people president,  GM, etc....) full autonomy to do the job they were hired to do. Unfortunately, that's something that probably won't happen anytime shortly. 

[CoachX]

1 minute ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

Once again,  we're witnessing what happens when you fail to build a team properly.  When you can't identify who you're franchise cornerstones are and are in a mad rush to compete that cutting corners is the norm,  this is exactly what you get. 

 

The fact that there has clearly been a lack of a plan going forward on how to properly build means were stuck in this perpetual cycle until ownership decides they've had enough, cuts out the garbage from consultants, management, etc and decides to give hockey people president,  GM, etc....) full autonomy to do the job they were hired to do. Unfortunately, that's something that probably won't happen anytime shortly. 

isnt this just an assumption? All indications from around the league, point towards trades and roster moves not happening until, or around the draft. We can speculate all we want, but until Fletcher makes moves, or fails to do so, we really don't know what the team will look like next season

 

unless there is something i missed

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

10 minutes ago, CoachX said:

isnt this just an assumption? All indications from around the league, point towards trades and roster moves not happening until, or around the draft. We can speculate all we want, but until Fletcher makes moves, or fails to do so, we really don't know what the team will look like next season

 

unless there is something i missed

But it's already been confirmed that Fletcher is in talks with Columbus over Jones and I'm seeking to bet that he's bidding against himself at this point and when the move is made, we're going to be disgusted at what he's given up and then equally disgusted about how much he's overpaid. Look at his tenure as GM in Minnesota and you'll a guy who's made gross overpayments or has given up too early on players. 

[CoachX]

8 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

But it's already been confirmed that Fletcher is in talks with Columbus over Jones and I'm seeking to bet that he's bidding against himself at this point and when the move is made, we're going to be disgusted at what he's given up and then equally disgusted about how much he's overpaid. Look at his tenure as GM in Minnesota and you'll a guy who's made gross overpayments or has given up too early on players. 

Again these are assumptions. I understand your skepticism, years of experience robs us of optimism. But we don't know what is going to happen. And just becasue a person fails in one place, does not mean he won't be successful in another. Hextall was successful in LA, not here. Berube failed here, but won a cup in STL. Personally, if Fletcher wasn't in talks for Jones, and other high profile players, I would be pissed. He should be looking at every option. And you aren't going to get top caliber players from other teams, without giving up something of value. No team wants our junk. And this team is junk at the moment. Without some big moves, they aren't going to get better

[radoran]

15 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

cuts out the garbage from consultants, management, etc and decides to give hockey people president,  GM, etc....) full autonomy to do the job they were hired to do. Unfortunately, that's something that probably won't happen anytime shortly. 

 

Fletcher is the President and GM. Of course, the last GM was fired by "Senior Adviser" Paul Holmgren who I am pretty sure thinks of himself as a "hockey person"... Not to mention "Senior Advisers" Bob Clarke, Bill Barber, and Dean Lombardi.

 

IMO, the main problem with this organization* is the senior management that has guided it for the past 20+ years...

 

None of them really know what to do in a league where the Flyers can't just buy players and are a desired destination. The last two "big name" FAs that signed here were JVR and Kevin Hayes.

 

6 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

Look at his tenure as GM in Minnesota and you'll a guy who's made gross overpayments or has given up too early on players. 

 

Look, I don't want to quibble here, but the Wild got out of the first round twice during Fletcher's tenure there. They won fifteen playoff games in ten years.

 

He's already achieved nearly half of that with the Flyers.

 

Well, and overpaid for Hayes...

 

#damningwithfaintpraise

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

2 hours ago, radoran said:

 

Fletcher is the President and GM. Of course, the last GM was fired by "Senior Adviser" Paul Holmgren who I am pretty sure thinks of himself as a "hockey person"... Not to mention "Senior Advisers" Bob Clarke, Bill Barber, and Dean Lombardi.

 

IMO, the main problem with this organization* is the senior management that has guided it for the past 20+ years...

 

None of them really know what to do in a league where the Flyers can't just buy players and are a desired destination. The last two "big name" FAs that signed here were JVR and Kevin Hayes.

 

 

Look, I don't want to quibble here, but the Wild got out of the first round twice during Fletcher's tenure there. They won fifteen playoff games in ten years.

 

He's already achieved nearly half of that with the Flyers.

 

Well, and overpaid for Hayes...

 

#damningwithfaintpraise

 

Lol

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

8 hours ago, CoachX said:

Again these are assumptions. I understand your skepticism, years of experience robs us of optimism. But we don't know what is going to happen. And just becasue a person fails in one place, does not mean he won't be successful in another. Hextall was successful in LA, not here. Berube failed here, but won a cup in STL. Personally, if Fletcher wasn't in talks for Jones, and other high profile players, I would be pissed. He should be looking at every option. And you aren't going to get top caliber players from other teams, without giving up something of value. No team wants our junk. And this team is junk at the moment. Without some big moves, they aren't going to get better

The Flyers can't afford to give up anything good because half the roster is junk. How do you expect to get better when you're dealing away two good players and a high draft pick for a player who's supposed to be good,  but his numbers,  including advanced metrics have gotten worse every year since his rookie year? Exactly.  You can't. And when the reports are the deal will be one of Konecny or Farabee,  Sanheim or Meyers and a 1st, that's huge.  And it's stupid. And it's moves like these that keep the Flyers need in mediocrity. If you can't see that, then I don't know what to tell you. You keep saying Fletcher might be different here,  but here's the reality - when Fletcher arrived in Philadelphia,  the Flyers were all but out of the playoffs, he could and should have moved Simmonds.  Instead, he held on to him for too long and dealt him for table scraps. Then,  he deals for the rights to Kevin Hayes. Hayes told everyone the ONLY way he stays in Philadelphia is if he overpay him. What does Fletcher do? Overpay him significantly AND gives him an NMC for the first four years of the deal.  But wait, it gets better. He deals a 2nd and 3rd round pick for Justin Braun,  who them goes on to become the second worst rated defender in the nhl behind teammate Robert Hagg. And what happens after that? Fletcher RESIGNS Braun to a 2 year deal because Matt Niskanen retired. The same Matt Niskanen who told the Flyers after the playoffs he was done and Fletcher told him to 'sleep on it' while not having a plan in place.  Would you like me to go on because I can and I can point out every fault Fletcher has made since beginning GM. These aren't minor faults either. Fletcher is a joke. Clearly you think otherwise,  but the MAJORITY on here who follow this team religiously can tell you the same.  I'm sorry you see him as a savior,  but in another year,  when the Flyers are in the crapper because he and Nature Boy dealt away our depth,  you'll see otherwise. 

[SCFlyguy]

14 hours ago, CoachX said:

in relation to the Jones/Eichel question?

 

Jones is under contract for 5 mil next season. Its the extension that causes the problem. But that gives the Flyers a season to figure that out, and I think Giroux comes off the books

Giroux comes off the books and we start having to pay Couturier $8M per year (i.e. Giroux money).  Try again.

[CoachX]

11 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

The Flyers can't afford to give up anything good because half the roster is junk.

Then how exactly do you expect them to get better?

 

12 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

And when the reports are the deal will be one of Konecny or Farabee,  Sanheim or Meyers and a 1st, that's huge.

I've not read Farabee's name connected to any trade

 

12 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

You keep saying Fletcher might be different here,  but here's the reality - when Fletcher arrived in Philadelphia,  the Flyers were all but out of the playoffs,

And yet, he signed Hayes and they made the playoffs

 

12 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

And what happens after that? Fletcher RESIGNS Braun to a 2 year deal because Matt Niskanen retired

because Matt Niskanen retired. Its been widely reported they tried to sign a more suitable replacement but couldn't get it done. They settled on Gustafson, who they admitted was a mistake, and got rid of him. Its not his fault Nisky retired

12 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

Would you like me to go on because I can and I can point out every fault

Please do, you obviously have time to spare

12 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

Fletcher is a joke.

your opinion. I prefer to wait til after this season to see

 

12 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

Clearly you think otherwise,  but the MAJORITY on here who follow this team religiously can tell you the same.

I'm not a sheep. I can form my own opinions, even if they aren't popular

12 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

Fletcher is a joke. Clearly you think otherwise

I never said this. Again, that is your assumption. You should speak for yourself, not me

12 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

I'm sorry you see him as a savior,  but in another year,  when the Flyers are in the crapper because he and Nature Boy dealt away our depth,  you'll see otherwise. 

No need to feel sorry for me. I'm happy with the way I see things. My opinions are not a mistake....and again, ASSUMPTIONS on your part

[CoachX]

9 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

Giroux comes off the books and we start having to pay Couturier $8M per year (i.e. Giroux money).  Try again.

according to MANY on here, its time to move Coots also (i don't agree, BTW)

[tucson83]

12 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

The Flyers can't afford to give up anything good because half the roster is junk. How do you expect to get better when you're dealing away two good players and a high draft pick for a player who's supposed to be good,  but his numbers,  including advanced metrics have gotten worse every year since his rookie year? Exactly.  You can't. And when the reports are the deal will be one of Konecny or Farabee,  Sanheim or Meyers and a 1st, that's huge.  And it's stupid. And it's moves like these that keep the Flyers need in mediocrity. If you can't see that, then I don't know what to tell you. You keep saying Fletcher might be different here,  but here's the reality - when Fletcher arrived in Philadelphia,  the Flyers were all but out of the playoffs, he could and should have moved Simmonds.  Instead, he held on to him for too long and dealt him for table scraps. Then,  he deals for the rights to Kevin Hayes. Hayes told everyone the ONLY way he stays in Philadelphia is if he overpay him. What does Fletcher do? Overpay him significantly AND gives him an NMC for the first four years of the deal.  But wait, it gets better. He deals a 2nd and 3rd round pick for Justin Braun,  who them goes on to become the second worst rated defender in the nhl behind teammate Robert Hagg. And what happens after that? Fletcher RESIGNS Braun to a 2 year deal because Matt Niskanen retired. The same Matt Niskanen who told the Flyers after the playoffs he was done and Fletcher told him to 'sleep on it' while not having a plan in place.  Would you like me to go on because I can and I can point out every fault Fletcher has made since beginning GM. These aren't minor faults either. Fletcher is a joke. Clearly you think otherwise,  but the MAJORITY on here who follow this team religiously can tell you the same.  I'm sorry you see him as a savior,  but in another year,  when the Flyers are in the crapper because he and Nature Boy dealt away our depth,  you'll see otherwise. 

 

this mess is on hextall no one else he had chances to improve this roster and didnt, if you want to be miserable and blame everyone else for his mistakes and call everyone out for having hope and cant be patient which im sorry to say it's probably going to take 2 or 3 years then you shouldnt be rooting for this team then.

Edited July 1, 2021 by tucson83

[ruxpin]

52 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

this mess is on hextall no one else he had chances to improve this roster and didnt

 

I completely disagree with this.   But, simply difference of opinion.   Sorry, I just had to chirp.  Carry on.

[SCFlyguy]

I'm very optimistic for next year.  With the right offseason moves, bounce back seasons from 8-10 key players, and a little luck, they might make the playoffs and get eliminated in 5 or even 6 games.

 

They're the little team that could!

[ruxpin]

55 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said:

I'm very optimistic for next year.  With the right offseason moves, bounce back seasons from 8-10 key players, and a little luck, they might make the playoffs and get eliminated in 5 or even 6 games.

 

They're the little team that could!

 

2 hours ago, tucson83 said:

 

this mess is on hextall no one else he had chances to improve this roster and didnt, if you want to be miserable and blame everyone else for his mistakes and call everyone out for having hope and cant be patient which im sorry to say it's probably going to take 2 or 3 years then you shouldnt be rooting for this team then.

 

I just love this little board.   Whenever I'm even thinking about crossing the street and I happen to check in, I end up leaving thinking, "screw crossing the street; I think I'll just lie down in the middle of it and wait for life to find a way."

[GratefulFlyers]

2 hours ago, tucson83 said:

 

this mess is on hextall no one else he had chances to improve this roster and didnt,

 

This is emblematic of Flyers' fans (and Rangers' fans and Islanders' fans etc). Nobody is ever happy with the last guy but the new guy always sucks even worse! LOL no offense Tucson this rant isn't at you, it just happened I was thinking as I read this thread..."I wish we hadn't bailed on Hextall."

 

I don't have time to scour the web but IIRC when Hextall joined the Flyers as GM they had zero homegrown defenseman on the roster - no Flyers' draft picks who came thru Lehigh playing night in night out. Is that a crime? Maybe not but what team ever won the Cup on borrowed talent alone? You can hire rental snipers and setup guys but your defense/goaltender need to be like the drummer and the bass player.

 

Anyway - my point is I liked Hextall's plan. I didn't feel impatient I felt like finally we got a GM with a plan. He beat himself on the Umberger deal but if I liked pretty much everything else he was doing.

 

Fletcher feels like Homer Redux...it's all Win Now! Go after the Biggest Free Agent and sign him regardless what it takes, money/term/assets in picks and youth. I hope I'm dead wrong about Fletcher. He hasn't had much time so I'm not hounding the guy out of town yet. But this summer will tell us a LOT about his plan...if he has one that is.

[mkscrewy]

You might not be wrong about Fletcher. We might get lucky and he'll wake up too late and miss his chance to make some crazy deal that would plague the team for the next decade.

[RonJeremy]

On 6/30/2021 at 9:59 AM, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

Not unless they want to completely gut their roster, farm system and draft picks. 

I would pass on Eichel, he needs major neck surgery already at his young age. I would not take that chance and give up so much, one good hit and he is finished. Neck and back injuries for a hockey player is not anything we want to deal with. We should learn our lesson after dealing with Lindros always being hurt and now the Patrick situation...We need some durable players. 

[flyercanuck]

16 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

I would pass on Eichel, he needs major neck surgery already at his young age. I would not take that chance and give up so much, one good hit and he is finished. Neck and back injuries for a hockey player is not anything we want to deal with. We should learn our lesson after dealing with Lindros always being hurt and now the Patrick situation...We need some durable players. 

 

Justin Braun is pretty durable...and he's from Minnesota!

 

Win-win!

[CoachX]

39 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

I would pass on Eichel, he needs major neck surgery already at his young age. I would not take that chance and give up so much, one good hit and he is finished. Neck and back injuries for a hockey player is not anything we want to deal with. We should learn our lesson after dealing with Lindros always being hurt and now the Patrick situation...We need some durable players. 

Fair point.

 

I wonder if there is another side? I mean, it's a business, right? So, could a player make an injury look more severe if he REALLY wants out? Buffalo kinds sucks, really bad

[OccamsRazor]

4 hours ago, ruxpin said:

 

I completely disagree with this.   But, simply difference of opinion.   Sorry, I just had to chirp.  Carry on.

 

Well I am not the highest on adding Hamilton as I have stated because the Flyers need a D man or the top pair to prevent the zone entries instead of an offensive guy.

 

But if it's Hamilton or what Chuckles will have to give up for Jones then I would much rather sign Hamilton.

 

Because the only thing he will cost I his contract.

 

I'm scared of what Jones will cost.

 

Guess we'll see what he has up his sleeve.

 

 

[CoachX]

Well it doesnt seem like, in all these POV, that there is a scenario where the flyers get any better. Regardless of who is on the ice, the front office, GM, and coaches all suck, lack vision, and have no plan for the future.

 

If that's true, then I'd much rather have them gut this team and root for a new bunch of losers to fail, instead of sitting through another season with the same bums we have now. At least a new group will give me false hope, as opposed to no hope. Plus the forum conversations will be revitalized with new subject matter to be beaten into the ground

 

 

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Well I am not the highest on adding Hamilton as I have stated because the Flyers need a D man or the top pair to prevent the zone entries instead of an offensive guy.

 

But if it's Hamilton or what Chuckles will have to give up for Jones then I would much rather sign Hamilton.

 

Because the only thing he will cost I his contract.

 

I'm scared of what Jones will cost.

 

Guess we'll see what he has up his sleeve.

 

 

 

This.  1000x this.  (except the "up his sleeve" part.  You just know it's boogers.)

[RonJeremy]

18 hours ago, CoachX said:

Fair point.

 

I wonder if there is another side? I mean, it's a business, right? So, could a player make an injury look more severe if he REALLY wants out? Buffalo kinds sucks, really bad

I don’t think he can embellish the injury, the team doctors would have all the MRI’s and medical records. Yes Buffalo is the sphincter of NY, you couldn’t pay me to live there.