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What is wrong with the Flyers and how do you fix it?


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7 hours ago, elmatus said:

I can understand folks not wanting to pull the plug on this roster.

I cant :dizzysmiley-1:

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Been watching pro hockey for more than 70 years. Learned that teams have personalities. Some respond to adversity, some don't.   As much as I would miss the season I was hoping for a cancellation. Had a gut feeling that covid-19 was a killer for the flyers. Missing a top pair defenseman, short training camp and a lack of strong leadership, they weren't a contender.   Still, I would not use this season to evaluate who goes and who stays. Use the time to prepare for the off sea

#hotgoalie   No goalie has ever controlled 60 minutes of a game...  

You can laugh, Homer let that team twist in the wind in his quixotic quest to bring Parise and Suter. Lost Jagr and Carle, didn't replace them with comparable players. I've said this to anyone who would listen.  Jagr was a great mentor to young-ish guys that were being relied on.   EDIT: that was the last "good team" the Flyers have iced, until last season.  

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8 hours ago, elmatus said:

 

This team needs a major roster change in a very real way. They need a true franchise-defining player or two to build around. Cam York is not that guy. Morgan Frost is not that guy. TK and Farabee are not that guy. We need at least one if not two players who are truly a cut above in terms of pure talent and skill, otherwise we will very likely lose to teams who do have those guys.

 

sure but going by the draft lottery being rigged and how good the draft classes are it's very difficult to do that, you could be the oilers of bad for a long time, that's not something you want either. the only possible way you can do this is you have to find players that are great shooters, you can tell from the shootout we dont have anyone that can put the puck in net, none of them have any killer offensive skill. if we had that, we probably would be a top 4 team.

 

that's what fletch has to do to retool this roster for example johnny g, laine etc.

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9 hours ago, Fizz said:

Mattered enough that you commented on my post.

Ok I'll play your game, what player on the Flyers is worth a first rounder and a top notch prospect?

Aside from Hart, Provorov and Couturier and you aren't trading any of those three. 

The captain of his team, the 3rd leading scorer in franchise history,a guy who is 10 ten in scoring over his career, top 5 face of % in the league. I can keep going.

Giroux is very good at hockey. One of the 15 best players of his era. 

He is worth a blue chip prospect and first rounder. Any team would be made better by adding him. 

 

I interpreted your post as unnecessarily antagonistic and of little value to the conversation. 

You want to talk hockey-talk hockey. 

You want to troll a conversation you can kick rocks. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, tucson83 said:

 

sure but going by the draft lottery being rigged and how good the draft classes are it's very difficult to do that, you could be the oilers of bad for a long time, that's not something you want either. the only possible way you can do this is you have to find players that are great shooters, you can tell from the shootout we dont have anyone that can put the puck in net, none of them have any killer offensive skill. if we had that, we probably would be a top 4 team.

 

that's what fletch has to do to retool this roster for example johnny g, laine etc.

 

I can see where you're coming from. I do think having a proper sniper or two would have been very useful. Giroux in particular has been forced to make due without a proper sniper as a wingman over his tenure, and I do think the team has been measurably worse as a result. Again I think of a guy like Backstrom and what he would have been without Ovechkin firing in pucks. Not that any other team was going to have an Ovechkin really, but someone along those lines would almost certainly have helped a good bit.

 

But we didn't have any of that. One big reason is simply because snipers are the kind of thing teams generally don't want to be rid of unless there's something sketchy about them to begin with. Every team places a high priority on scoring goals (for obvious reasons). Getting an elite sniper by way of trades virtually never happens, and that's for a good reason. 

 

I mean, the bankruptcy kid out in SJ was available, and I remember some folks talking about wanting to bring him on. He certainly doesn't shy away from throwing pucks at the net. He also appears to be textbook locker room cancer. So yeah, he's a sniper, but we probably would be worse off with him and not better. Those are the ones who actually hit the market while still in their prime. 

 

The far more tested and true way to get a guy like that is through the draft. I don't believe the lottery is rigged, and I don't think there's any reason to believe that. Moreover, any glancing at the outcomes of players over the last number of years shows that the vast majority of gamechanging caliber players are taken very early in the first round. Are they always that caliber? No, they're not. But virtually all of the names we might list off as being franchise level talent were taken in the top ten or even top five. That's not some sort of odd coincidence. 

 

I happen to think that type of player is highly needed in a salary cap world. Having even one guy who forces other teams to make a bunch of plans to contain is a massive advantage in a world where virtually every team has AHLers on the fourth line and new teams are handed out like candy at halloween, stretching out true talent across even more cities.

 

There's a reason virtually all contenders have true gamechanging players on their roster (the vast majority of whom were drafted very very early in the first round). We don't have any such players. We don't have any in the pipeline right now either. And sure, we could try and get very lucky in nabbing a Kucherov somewhere later in the draft, but those are major exceptions to the rule. The draft is always a gamble, as you say, but it's one where the odds of success are much better near the very top. Not 100% as we all know (thanks Patrick), but nonetheless very good. 

 

I would love to come out here and talk about how what really let us down was the fact our scouting was awful and just didn't pick the right guy out of the three best players available. We really can't do that though, cause we've virtually never had a chance to get any of those guys.

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12 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

One of the 15 best players of his era. 

 

And yet can't crack the top 12 forwards on Team Canada... 🤔

 

I'm not sure that many people outside of the Philadelphia Flyers' fanbase have this opinion of the player.

 

Again, I agree that he is very good at hockey.  And to your point, he is 15th in points among active players.

 

The counterpoint - guys can be productive as a good player on a bad team. Case in point, Ilya Kovalchuk - 30 more career points in currently the same number of NHL games played as Claude.

 

Do we consider Kovalchuk (with 175 more career goals) "one of the 15 best players of his era"?

 

For that matter Voracek is 23rd in points among active players. Does that qualify him as "one of the Top 25 players of his era"?

 

the x files sigh GIF

 

And, yes, Giroux has not at all been served well by the organization* he has played for. I don't "hate" the player.

 

I'm just tired of him as the anointed chosen one of the organization*.

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2 hours ago, tucson83 said:

 

 

 

that's what fletch has to do to retool this roster for example johnny g, laine etc.

 

 No...no that isn't what we need. Take a look at the teams those guys play on, they're worse than Philly. Laine has been terrible since he got traded from the team that didn't want him anymore. Those guys are just more bloated contracts for underwhelming players.

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11 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 No...no that isn't what we need. Take a look at the teams those guys play on, they're worse than Philly. Laine has been terrible since he got traded from the team that didn't want him anymore. Those guys are just more bloated contracts for underwhelming players.

Johnny G isn't the most ideal pickup in terms of what they need "physically" speaking, but as far as a guy who would want to be here and would play his tail off...he would be one. This versus a retread floater like JVR (who is btw playing decently) and Jake the Flake.

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1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

The captain of his team, the 3rd leading scorer in franchise history,a guy who is 10 ten in scoring over his career, top 5 face of % in the league. I can keep going.

Giroux is very good at hockey. One of the 15 best players of his era. 

He is worth a blue chip prospect and first rounder. Any team would be made better by adding him. 

 

I interpreted your post as unnecessarily antagonistic and of little value to the conversation. 

You want to talk hockey-talk hockey. 

You want to troll a conversation you can kick rocks. 

 

 

Like I said nobody is going to give that for Giroux as a rental. First you have to get him to wave his N/T clause. But hey keep living in your fantasy world.

You keep saying trade the whole team, fine and well, but how do you do it? You have to have a trading partner. No GM is going to give a better player for a lesser one. So you retain salary and give draft picks and prospects, well there goes your rebuild. You have just hamstrung the team for years to come.

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I thought this place would be a good place to talk hockey with other Flyer fans. As it turns out I was wrong. Most on here are incapable of civil conversation.

If a person dosen't agree with their point of view they are insulted and ridiculed.

Well I'm out.

Go Flyers Go

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11 hours ago, FD19372 said:

they have to find one.

 

 

Dominik Kubalik. He is just 25. Go get him. He is on the Blackhawks 3rd line LW.

 

Don't ask me how i provided the guy you find a way to get him utilize assets.

 

And yes it won't be cheap. They need a goal scorer to build around.

 

 

They said they are willing to take on salary to make it happen. Well there you go.

 

Start with a first round pick in 2021...and...

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49 minutes ago, Fizz said:

If a person dosen't agree with their point of view they are insulted and ridiculed.

Well I'm out.

 

It really is, some of us may rub you the wrong way (they do me too) i get it some of us are smart asses and a lot is in jest don't take it personal i'm sure some of this is tongue in cheek kidding around. We enjoy your opinion around here and look forward to continuing the conversation of how to fix this club.

 

I know you are new around this part but some of us like to joke around and well i know some here just like to tell your opinion is wrong while not providing their own opinion on how to fix it. 

 

You won't find a better place to talk hockey i can tell you that so don't let all these assholes piss you stay and voice your opinion too it counts as well.

 

And yes @CoachX is always an asshole but he'll grow on you like mold...i'm still not sure if that is even good...

 

...Go Flyers!!!

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1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 No...no that isn't what we need. Take a look at the teams those guys play on, they're worse than Philly. Laine has been terrible since he got traded from the team that didn't want him anymore. Those guys are just more bloated contracts for underwhelming players.

then you are putting a ton of pressure on hart to play like bernie because they cant score goals, that's not fair to him and you cant win like that, look at buffalo, cant score goals throwing everything on the goalie to save their bacon look where they ended up.

 

in this era, you have to have offensive skill to win games and have good goaltending, it's not 80s and 90s where you can just grit and grind for goals and have a goalie bail you out every game, because all the good teams are going after snipers.

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51 minutes ago, Fizz said:

Like I said nobody is going to give that for Giroux as a rental. First you have to get him to wave his N/T clause. But hey keep living in your fantasy world.

You keep saying trade the whole team, fine and well, but how do you do it? You have to have a trading partner. No GM is going to give a better player for a lesser one. So you retain salary and give draft picks and prospects, well there goes your rebuild. You have just hamstrung the team for years to come.

G could be traded to a legit Cup contender at next years deadline. Most of his contract would have already been paid by the Flyers, so the other team would not have to pay him big $, he wouldn’t have to be away from his home/family for an entire season and playoffs, he would only be away for a few months. Why wouldn’t he want a legit shot at he Cup with a contender, he would still become an UFA and be able to test the market.  
 

Giroux could get us a nice return. Plenty of teams have given up  good assets for less talented players at the deadline. If G went to a talented team where he was an additional piece and not the “go to” guy he would probably put up real good numbers.  To trade him in the offseason and his 9 million and NMC, it would be hard, but at next years deadline, It can be done. If this season G was in his last contract year, you don’t think a team like the Isles wouldn’t have traded for G ,especially after losing Lee for the year. Something like that would be perfect . He would be close to his home and playing for the Cup. 

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23 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

Giroux could get us a nice return.

 

I think he can too. But right now i have bigger concerns with this roster than him right now.

 

I want to move other off this roster first and foremost at the time...find guys like i suggest here like Dominik Kubalik and go get him he can put the biscuit in the basket....so come up with the package and send him/them packing for this kid.

 

Something like a 1st in 2021, Patrick, Ghost or Hagg, Ratcliffe and....or if they would prefer Brink or Desnoyers...now none of this is locked in but if someone can come up with a better package by all means try.

 

 

 

 

Edited by OccamsRazor
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1 hour ago, Fizz said:

I thought this place would be a good place to talk hockey with other Flyer fans. As it turns out I was wrong. Most on here are incapable of civil conversation.

If a person dosen't agree with their point of view they are insulted and ridiculed.

Well I'm out.

Go Flyers Go

 

 

Hang in there Fizz. I'm sure it's just their style and not mean-spirited. To me it reads close-minded, stubborn and proud of it (!) but what the hell, they're probably just having fun trying sounding cute or clever or whatever. When you go against popular opinion it does seem to bring out the stupid though and not only here everywhere.

 

I think you're wrong about Giroux not fetching a big return though - if I read you correctly. On another subject I think you're onto something when you talk about AV not doing enough with this roster. I'm far from blaming him or his staff, but his successes all had one thing in common, outstanding goaltending, which the Flyers ain't getting this year.

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1 hour ago, RonJeremy said:

G could be traded to a legit Cup contender at next years deadline. Most of his contract would have already been paid by the Flyers, so the other team would not have to pay him big $, he wouldn’t have to be away from his home/family for an entire season and playoffs, he would only be away for a few months. Why wouldn’t he want a legit shot at he Cup with a contender, he would still become an UFA and be able to test the market.  
 

Giroux could get us a nice return. Plenty of teams have given up  good assets for less talented players at the deadline. If G went to a talented team where he was an additional piece and not the “go to” guy he would probably put up real good numbers.  To trade him in the offseason and his 9 million and NMC, it would be hard, but at next years deadline, It can be done. If this season G was in his last contract year, you don’t think a team like the Isles wouldn’t have traded for G ,especially after losing Lee for the year. Something like that would be perfect . He would be close to his home and playing for the Cup. 

If you wait until next year, which I think is the Flyers motto, you will have lost a piece in the expansion draft and he will be another year older and less of an asset. Not Giroux bashing, just stating an asset management fact. If you are getting a decent return for #28 you have to bundle it with something and retain salary or take something back you don't really need. You have to look at every angle and start by admitting this season is over and a new dynamic is needed. 

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3 hours ago, Fizz said:

What's your problem?

 

did I touch an nerve pumpkin? Awww, so sorry.

 

Someone needs a hug

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25 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Hang in there Fizz. I'm sure it's just their style and not mean-spirited. To me it reads close-minded, stubborn and proud of it (!) but what the hell, they're probably just having fun trying sounding cute or clever or whatever. When you go against popular opinion it does seem to bring out the stupid though and not only here everywhere

could you be any more condescending?

 

 

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17 hours ago, radoran said:

 

#hotgoalie

 

No goalie has ever controlled 60 minutes of a game...

 

:5a6425fa25331_VikingSkoool:

All those years watching Brodeur sure made it feel like he could and did. 👿

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16 hours ago, elmatus said:

I can understand folks not wanting to pull the plug on this roster. I was there not so long ago for just about ten long years. As has been said a number of times now, there's only so much anyone's going to get from this bunch. The best they've mustered in this decade is some reasonably good runs in the second half of a couple seasons. That's no where near good enough for ten years of building around the same core players.

 

Clearly, folks will have differing opinions on this stuff. Personally, I do not think this roster can compete for a cup as assembled. I don't think getting a veteran 30 some dman will solve the issues that have plagued this team now for ten years. I don't think adding someone with "leadership ability" will change anything either. The simplest and most likely reason for why the team has not ever been true contenders in the past decade is that they just can't.

 

That's not something to be ashamed of either. Over the same ten years, really only maybe 4-5 teams have been consistent contenders, with maybe another 2-3 coming in and out of that zone. The vast majority of teams in this league have been no where near the stanley cup over this same timeframe. Sure, maybe they all lacked leadership, or drive to win games. Maybe they all had piss poor effort and didn't see the point of playing after signing their contracts. I suppose that is a possibility... but I can't say it's a realistic one.

 

Much like the Flyers, the most likely reason why the majority of NHL teams have not been contenders is simply because their rosters are likewise just not good enough. The talent they have on offer just can't cut it. Unlike many of those teams, the Flyers have been good enough to make the playoffs many years during this decade. They've been abysmal once in the playoffs of course, with nothing but garbage play to show for their efforts. They've done this all while changing coaches and GMs, with none of that making any difference in terms of real success on the ice when it counts.

 

This team needs a major roster change in a very real way. They need a true franchise-defining player or two to build around. Cam York is not that guy. Morgan Frost is not that guy. TK and Farabee are not that guy. We need at least one if not two players who are truly a cut above in terms of pure talent and skill, otherwise we will very likely lose to teams who do have those guys.

Is the problem now that the NHL has too many teams and the talent is just too watered down? 

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5 hours ago, Fizz said:

I thought this place would be a good place to talk hockey with other Flyer fans. As it turns out I was wrong. Most on here are incapable of civil conversation.

If a person dosen't agree with their point of view they are insulted and ridiculed.

Well I'm out.

Go Flyers Go

39c7c42d39525287f6f674d761cb86bb--cool-s

Banter is good, hang in there. 

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4 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

find guys like i suggest here like Dominik Kubalik and go get him he can put the biscuit in the basket

 

I'm curious what team would trade away a guy like Kubalik.   I mean, they know what they have in him, he's still fairly inexpensive, and is still RFA at the end of next season.  He's actually spent a lot of the season on higher lines, but he's going through a slow patch.  I mean, they're rebuilding too, so I don't think we get him.   I personally wouldn't trade him for anything on the Flyers if I'm Chicago.

 

I know he's one example and I also get that maybe with some kind of package, but I'm also not blowing a hole in the roster to get him, either.  (I do like him.   Good call on the type of player we need).   I'd certainly kick the tires; I'm just not expecting that particular example to go anywhere.      

 

But again, I actually do think we have those types here.   Something repeatedly is taking players that have done well and crushed the life out of them.  They go elsewhere after and suddenly it's like someone used the paddles and they sprung back to life.    Whatever is causing that circumstance is what needs to be rooted out and destroyed.

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4 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

spent a lot of the season on higher lines, but he's going through a slow patch.  I mean, they're rebuilding too, so I don't think we get him.

 

I'ts why you have to give something of value back. Exchanging pieces. 

 

5 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

But again, I actually do think we have those types here. 

 

Sure but how much longer you going to wait??

 

all the ones we have everyone wants gone except one.

 

And you shouldn't have to blow a hole in your roster...but give up prospects and a roster piece at least with draft picks.

 

So no NHL 2022 moves please.

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