What is wrong with the Flyers and how do you fix it?

[Fizz]

24 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

yes, seriously.

The team had not advanced since 2012. That is 9 years.

Also, barely beating the Canadiens is still beating the Canadiens. The same team that eviscerated the Pens.

The 7th seed ? You're talking about the Islanders right ? 

That team beat the Flyers every time they played last year until the playoffs. The team that's sitting in 2nd right now, the team that had JG Pagueau as their 3rd line centerman last year...yes?

okay that was a bad team, in no one's opinion but yours. 

Fletcher and Vigneault are failures? when combined they've had the most success of any tandem in in 10 years in their first year as a team...

You are wrong.

It's okay I am too sometimes. 

 

 

 

 

Oh. the same team that had all that "success" last year and beat all the top teams as you say is the same team that lost to the worst team in the league 6-1 and has looked like crap for the last month. So the Islanders improved from last year and the Flyers look like crap.

Can you explain that to me......I'll wait. 

Edited April 1, 2021 by Fizz

[CoachX]

2 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

So please, come back to Earth and let's discuss things reasonably lol!

you first!

[OccamsRazor]

18 minutes ago, Fizz said:

Oh. the same team that had all that "success" last year and beat all the top teams as you say is the same team that lost to the worst team in the league 6-1 and has looked like crap for the last month. So the Islanders improved from last year and the Flyers look like crap.

Can you explain that to me......I'll wait. 

 

 

In a long winded answer YES!!!

 

[mojo1917]

26 minutes ago, Fizz said:

Oh. the same team that had all that "success" last year and beat all the top teams as you say is the same team that lost to the worst team in the league 6-1 and has looked like crap for the last month. So the Islanders improved from last year and the Flyers look like crap.

Can you explain that to me......I'll wait. 

This has been maybe the worst month in Flyers history from a goals against stand point.

I'm not trying to convince you that everything is aces!

Because it's not. They had an historically terrible month on his watch.

 

The fact remains, this duo won more playoff series in the last 10 years than any other combo.

Vigneault was a finalist for the Jack Adams award last year. 

In spite of the futility of the last month AV still has .603 winning percentage with the team.

 

To say his time here has been a failure is just false. 

 

 

 

 

[Fizz]

6 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

In a long winded answer YES!!!

 

OK, so taking the Islanders for an example. Basically the same team same HC same GM got substantially better. Right?

The Flyers, basically the same team same HC same GM have gotten substantially worse. Why?

The HC is not doing something right or the GM isn't doing his job.

 

I agree a lot of the players are under achieving, but these are the same players from last year. No way Niskanen is the difference all by himself. It's the coaches job to motivate his team and have them ready to play every night.

To me AV has lost the room and is failing to put the right system in play so his players can succeed.

Hey they may not be the players he wants, but you play the cards you are delt and change the style of play to fit the players.

If that means changing to a defensive style to help a weak d then you change your system. AV is not doing that.

His run n gun system is not working but hey he has gotten to the finals twice so he must be a great coach.

Maybe Bobby Clarke should lace em up and play, after all he was once a great player.

AV's time as a HC has passed him by.

 

[CoachX]

2 hours ago, FD19372 said:

Can we get Quick, too?

he too slow

[CoachX]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

Right now they have one goal.

per game

[CoachX]

17 minutes ago, Fizz said:

The Flyers, basically the same team same HC same GM have gotten substantially worse. Why?

Sorry, skipped the rest of your post because I got fixated on this question

 

This is what I think.... when the covid break occurred, something went wrong internally with the team. Maybe player to player, maybe player to coach. They maintained enough to get through the playoff round, but adversity hit again, off the ice, and the team got wiped out. It has continued to the point of no repair. I think there is a division amongst the players, and between players and coaches. The large majority of players have quit on the team. Maybe they want out. Maybe they want the coach out

Edited April 1, 2021 by CoachX

[pilldoc]

1 hour ago, Fizz said:

It's the coaches job to motivate his team and have them ready to play every night.

 

Negative ghost rider. I respectfully disagree. It is not the coaches sole responsibility to motivate players.  A coach can rant and rave all he/she wants and use every trick in the book to motivate a team, but ultimately it comes down to the players themselves to find self-motivation and the leadership of the Captain to facilitate the needs of the coaching staff to the team as needed.

 

Long before he was a media personality familiar to college hockey fans, Dave Starman was an assistant and head coach on the Junior level and the minor league professional level. He found the most important job the captain had was to reinforce the coaches’ work and wishes when the locker room door closed.
 
“You’re looking for someone who, when you walk out of the dressing room, is going to facilitate your message and who is going to be respected enough by the guys in that room to adhere to it,” said Starman, who also provides color commentary of Team USA broadcasts at the World Junior Championships.
   
“There’s an old saying in the coaching world that the three most important minutes in your week are the three minutes after you address your team between periods. Because after you give your message, if your captains don’t pick up on what you’re trying to get to and continue to pump that message into the team, then why have them?”

 

This team is severely lacking in team leadership.  Starman also goes on to mention that an effective captain serves as a liaison between the coaching staff and the players. He knows how -- and when -- to talk to teammates about their substandard performance, work ethic, attitude or other issues that might arise. In the dressing room before a game or practice, the Captain must ensure that everyone is focused on the task at hand and understands his or role.

 

Am I absolving AV of a all responsibility here...NO.  I would hesitate to guess some blame can be shared by AV, but enough to get him fired...NO! As I mentioned above these are professional athletes and if they can't find the self motivation to perform on the ice then they need to get the hell of the ice and that includes the current captain.

 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by pilldoc

[mojo1917]

20 minutes ago, CoachX said:

This is what I think.... when the covid break occurred, something went wrong internally with the team. Maybe player to player, maybe player to coach. They maintained enough to get through the playoff round, but adversity hit again, off the ice, and the team go wiped out. It has continued to the point of no repair. I think there is a division amongst the players, and between players and coaches. The large majority of players have quit on the team.

Certainly plausible.

Add to what you said the fact that after COVID, their schedule got condensed to where there was no time off to clear their heads after a bad game. No time to practice, just an onslaught of games -when they were struggling to find theirs.

Truly everything went to hell all at once.

If it wasn't for the fact it is my favorite team it would be comical.

I don't recall a time when guys just took their sticks for skates, but I saw after the score went to 4-1 last night.

I don't know if this group of players can "turn it around", maybe the rest helps, maybe some practice helps.

Certainly having the goaltenders stopping some pucks would help. Who knows, it's not looking or feeling like the season can be "salvaged".

 

I truly wonder if the FO is going to write this season off.

There have been myriad theories from complete rebuild to band-aid additions... Who knows how plausible any of our ideas are and; the FO's inaction to make any "moves" is starting to speak loudly about this season.

I expect the team to be vastly different at camp next season. 

 

[OccamsRazor]

40 minutes ago, Fizz said:

AV's time as a HC has passed him by.

 

 

[radoran]

1 hour ago, Fizz said:

The Flyers, basically the same team same HC same GM have gotten substantially worse. Why?

The HC is not doing something right or the GM isn't doing his job.

 

It's not the same team. They lost a critical presence on the blue line and yes the GM failed to replace it.

 

Now, explain the failure of this core over the past decade under three GMs and four coaches.

 

The players aren't doing their job.

 

But you can't just fire all the players so they've been dealing with a group that is simply not good enough to compete at a top level consistently.

 

Pretending that "it's just the coach" is beyond myopic.

 

It's willful blindness.

[OccamsRazor]

1 minute ago, radoran said:

 

The players aren't doing their job.

 

 

[Fizz]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

Sorry, skipped the rest of your post because I got fixated on this question

 

This is what I think.... when the covid break occurred, something went wrong internally with the team. Maybe player to player, maybe player to coach. They maintained enough to get through the playoff round, but adversity hit again, off the ice, and the team got wiped out. It has continued to the point of no repair. I think there is a division amongst the players, and between players and coaches. The large majority of players have quit on the team. Maybe they want out. Maybe they want the coach out

You could quite possibly be right. But how do they fix it?

You can't replace the whole team, so if it's just a couple players get rid of the bad apples.

If it's the whole team you get rid of the coach, my problem is this has been going on for over a month with no changes.

I have a friend that is a huge Canuck fan and he said this is exactly the same thing that happened there with AV except it's happening faster here. Take that for what it's worth, a fans opinion.

I think the team has quit on the coach. Not a good place to be, but yet here we are.

[Fizz]

49 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Certainly plausible.

Add to what you said the fact that after COVID, their schedule got condensed to where there was no time off to clear their heads after a bad game. No time to practice, just an onslaught of games -when they were struggling to find theirs.

Truly everything went to hell all at once.

If it wasn't for the fact it is my favorite team it would be comical.

I don't recall a time when guys just took their sticks for skates, but I saw after the score went to 4-1 last night.

I don't know if this group of players can "turn it around", maybe the rest helps, maybe some practice helps.

Certainly having the goaltenders stopping some pucks would help. Who knows, it's not looking or feeling like the season can be "salvaged".

 

I truly wonder if the FO is going to write this season off.

There have been myriad theories from complete rebuild to band-aid additions... Who knows how plausible any of our ideas are and; the FO's inaction to make any "moves" is starting to speak loudly about this season.

I expect the team to be vastly different at camp next season. 

 

I think COVID is a convenient excuse, every team is dealing with exactly the same thing. Why are the Flyers the only team that tanked and are not meeting expiations? Here is what I think, Last year we were a team playing way over our heads riding a hot goalie. When the time came to play the same teem over and over we were exposed.

This year with the weird schedule we are again playing teams over and over. Their coaches have figured out how to beat us and our coaches won't change the system.

Frankly we weren't a very good team last year and we aren't a very good team this year.

[pilldoc]

18 minutes ago, Fizz said:

You can't replace the whole team, so if it's just a couple players get rid of the bad apples.

And it begins with some of the veteran players.

 

20 minutes ago, Fizz said:

my problem is this has been going on for over a month with no changes

no this has been going for the past decade.

 

21 minutes ago, Fizz said:

I have a friend that is a huge Canuck fan and he said this is exactly the same thing that happened there with AV except it's happening faster here. Take that for what it's worth, a fans opinion.

comparing apples to oranges...

Berube gets fired from here and wins the Cup with the Blues.

Lavy gets fired from here and takes the Preds to the SCF’s.

 

26 minutes ago, Fizz said:

think the team has quit on the coach.

No they quit on themselves...

[radoran]

16 minutes ago, Fizz said:

Why are the Flyers the only team that tanked and are not meeting expiations?

 

The Buffalo Sabres and Dallas Stars say "hello"

 

The Flyers are the middling bubble playoff team they have been for a decade.

[pilldoc]

18 minutes ago, Fizz said:

Frankly we weren't a very good team last year and we aren't a very good team this year.

We finally agree on something

[mojo1917]

16 minutes ago, Fizz said:

I think COVID is a convenient excuse, every team is dealing with exactly the same thing. Why are the Flyers the only team that tanked and are not meeting expiations? Here is what I think, Last year we were a team playing way over our heads riding a hot goalie. When the time came to play the same teem over and over we were exposed.

This year with the weird schedule we are again playing teams over and over. Their coaches have figured out how to beat us and our coaches won't change the system.

Frankly we weren't a very good team last year and we aren't a very good team this year.

Not every team has had players actually get infected. 

A large portion of the Flyers roster was, including key guys.

 

So again, you're not allowing for reality.  Buffalo had guys get it so did Vancouver, so did Dallas.

Every team's experience with the virus has not been the same.

 

 

The team before the COVID break was very good by most metrics.

 

Clearly there's not much common ground to be reached here

[tucson83]

18 minutes ago, Fizz said:

You could quite possibly be right. But how do they fix it?

You can't replace the whole team, so if it's just a couple players get rid of the bad apples.

If it's the whole team you get rid of the coach, my problem is this has been going on for over a month with no changes.

I have a friend that is a huge Canuck fan and he said this is exactly the same thing that happened there with AV except it's happening faster here. Take that for what it's worth, a fans opinion.

I think the team has quit on the coach. Not a good place to be, but yet here we are.

 

well no, you cant have a team full of stars  but you need at least 5 players that make immediate impacts like johnny g, patrick laine, anyone that's a star that's on the block because jake, giroux, jvr they are not impact players, that's why we are having problems, they dont know who can step up.

and we have to figure out how to get rid of all three of these bad contracts.

 

if we do get rid of av, we cant replace him with another big time coach because we are paying av 15 million even if we get rid of him, we are still paying him and they have a coaching budget which they have to bring in a assistant, college coach, or scott gordon until av's contract is up.

 

so you are not going to get anyone good if they fire av and firing av isnt going to fix it. it's a talent issue, we need new talent on this team, that's the reality of it.

[radoran]

21 minutes ago, Fizz said:

Frankly we weren't a very good team last year and we aren't a very good team this year

 

They were a point out of the division lead and fourth in the conference when play stopped.

 

They won a playoff round for the first time in eight years.

 

True stories.

 

The lack of consistency is what makes this team a middling bubble playoff team.

[tucson83]

12 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

The Buffalo Sabres and Dallas Stars say "hello"

 

The Flyers are the middling bubble playoff team they have been for a decade.

chicago, la, san jose too, i mean it's happening to those teams that were once good, the saving grace for us is that we have assets to fix this team, those teams dont.

Edited April 1, 2021 by tucson83

[Fizz]

14 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

And it begins with some of the veteran players.

 

no this has been going for the past decade.

 

comparing apples to oranges...

Berube gets fired from here and wins the Cup with the Blues.

Lavy gets fired from here and takes the Preds to the SCF’s.

 

No they quit on themselves...

Ok, you disagree with everything I said and that's ok, we all have different ideas.

So how do you fix it?

How are you going to get rid of the core?

G at 8.275 mil a year 1 year remaining as per capfriendly

Jake at 8.250 a year 3 years remaining as per capfriendly

Hayes at roughly 7 mil a year 5 years remaining as per capfriendly

JVR at 7 mil a year 2 years remaining as per capfriendly

Gus at 3 mil a year thank God he is done after this year as per capfriendly

Ghost at 3.425 mil a year 2 years remaining as per capfriendly

That is the core everybody is blaming, fine but how do you get rid of them if they are all dead weight?

Tried waving Ghost but no takers. Do you think any team in a flat cap will trade to take on those contracts?

See a pattern here? Overpaying declining talent or over rating talent. That's on the GM

Not getting the most out of the players you have be they good or bad that's on the coach.

[radoran]

2 minutes ago, Fizz said:

Overpaying declining talent or over rating talent. That's on the GM

 

Fletcher signed ONE of thise long term deals - Hayes.

 

And we can agree Gus was a mistake.

They already fired the guys that signed G, V, and JVR.

 

How's that working out for them?

[Fizz]

3 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Fletcher signed ONE of thise long term deals - Hayes.

 

And we can agree Gus was a mistake.

They already fired the guys that signed G, V, and JVR.

 

How's that working out for them?

Where in my post did I say Fletcher made all the deals?