Fizz

6 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Ok. You posted someone else's opinion. Do you have any of your own?

 

My question directly to you, not someone else,  is how you define a player as a veteran? Your statement was AV is only capable of successfully coaching veterans.  I think the majority of this team fits that definition 

 

BTW, i did not bother to read what you pasted. Im discussing with you, which interests me. Whoever wrote that article does not

Dude that is my exact opinion.

I think he is a terrible coach. You obviously love him. We disagree no big deal. Yes we have under acheaving players, I agree on that point. But I also think a lot of the reason for the poor play is the system AV is asking them to play.

Look how often the forwards are fast breaking out of their own zone before the d has control of the puck. The d turns it over and there is no forward support, bang its in our net. He refuses to change, now other coaches have figured this out and we are getting our asses handed to us.

10 hours ago, CoachX said:

Im not sure what you mean by "veteran". This is a youngish team, but it isn't a bunch of rookies

 

G, jake, hayes, jvr, coots, laughton, raffl, all 7+ seasons. Lindblom (injuries)is in his 4th. Tk has 5 (all star). Patrick is in his 3rd full season.

 

On D theres Braun, gus, ghost, provy, and hagg.

 

Only Farabee and NAK are regulars in their first full season, but both played a lot last season.

 

You may be right that Hart isnt an all star,  but we all thought he would be. And yes, Elliott isnt, but he's definitely a vet, and a viable #2

 

I just dont see the logic to this argument. All your points seem to illustrate what we all see, you just frame as the coaches fault,  and not the guys who aren't executing

Copied from Broadstreethockey.

This article sums up my thoughts exactly.

First things first, would you say Alain Vigneault is a good coach?

This is a loaded question. I don't think Vigneault is a good coach. I think there is a ton of evidence that Vigneault is, in fact, a horrible coach, who was carried by two elite goaltenders (Roberto Luongo and Henrik Lundqvist) in their primes. Vigneault is a man who only knows how to build one machine. If the Flyers happen to have the parts needed to make the machine work, you will love Vigneault as a coach ... until the machine needs new parts. The man, I am convinced, has never looked in a mirror once. He never questioned himself or his decisions, even when they failed (I have more on that here). He needs a room with a lot of veterans because he keeps his hands off the room and lets the players run the show. Kids need to earn ice time and respect and find themselves put in the press box when they make mistakes. This is especially true of kids who bring more offense and make mistakes trying to do it. Once he's cemented a "favorite", that player gets held above any other accountability he would give to any veteran — a move which created animosity in the room with the kids and the vets. Pavel Buchnevich admitted after Vigneault was fired that when he was benched, all Vigneault would tell him was "fight for the puck" and never went into more detail. What's worse, he will make the Philadelphia media fall in love with them, something he did in New York, and it kept the media from going after him at all — which helped him not need to question himself. The things he did in New York that got him fired are the same things he did in Vancouver that got him fired. And at the end of it all, on the final game of the season two years ago, he gave an unprompted speech about how the "coaching staff was the best thing for the team." He has no love for advanced statistics and uses his own "sophisticated stats package" that no one is allowed to know or see. Seriously. I also think it's very telling that once AV was fired, no one, not a single player, came to his defense. And when given the opportunity, EVERY SINGLE former player bashed him after he was fired.

What are his coaching philosophies?

Vigneault preaches a speed game, but his systems often boiled down to a counterattacking team. Set plays were worked to get guys running through the neutral zone with speed and scoring off fast breaks. The problem is Vigneault's system requires defenseman to be able to get the puck in their own zone and start the breakouts, and he did this by making Dan Girardi a top-pair defenseman for four years. When the system failed he ... never adjusted it. At all. Vigneault teams typically get shelled in possession, and find themselves on their heels a lot when the offensive breaks don't go their way. Which comes back to needing elite goaltending to bail him out — which Lundqvist did.

Is he a coach who makes adjustments or does he stick by his gameplan regardless of the outcome?

Vigneault doesn't really adjust, he tweaks. Generally tweaks turn back to the tired and true ideologies (even if they're not working) as soon as something doesn't go the way he wanted it to. He "won't change the lineups" after a win, unless a kid did well and he needed to get one of his guys in. He's sat guys like Kevin Hayes and Buchnevich for Tanner Glass in the playoffs ... multiple times. Wins are wins regardless of how they come. Vigneault took wins as gospel, regardless of how they came. The Rangers won games on Hank's shoulders alone, got crushed in possession, saw players drown in their roles and Vigneault always said "never question a win" and left things as they were.

26 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

When do we start blaming the players? I am.

I agree the players are underachieving. But I also think a lot of it is because of the system AV is asking them to play.

His system works well with a veteran group of players and an all star goalie, none of witch are currently on this Flyer team.

Yes 100% the players have to shoulder part of the blame. But again it is up to the HC to put the players he has into a system that gets the most out of then. These players all made it to the NHL they just didn't forget how to play once they got here. But man they looked like pee wee's running around and falling down out there tonight.

Right from the start I cursed the hiring of Fletcher and the subsequent hiring of AV.

Just an observation but do you guys notice how soon the forwards flee their own zone? Sometimes even before the

d-men even have the puck.

There is so much wrong with this team right now, I'm speachless.

3 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

@Fizz

That's a reasonable list, I'd swap Giroux for Hayes in the keeper pile. I like Hayesy, but I like G more.

I'm not all set to dump Myers either. He's still young in terms or NHL games played, and last night I watched him track down and body Matt Barzal who looked to be on a break away.

Not too many dudes can do that. 

However, for the right deal I would trade him and hope one of the prospects fills his role more consistently.

Giroux mostly for his age and his contract and I think Couturier is a better leader.

5 minutes ago, CoachX said:

From hockeywriters.com I just read this:

 

"Flyers and Flames Have Right Pieces to Make a Deal?

When another executive was asked about trade between the Flyers and Flames — one that would see Johnny Gaudreau and a second-round pick go to the Flyers for Travis Konecny and a fifth-round pick — this was a trade that got some support. "

I could live with that trade.

10 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Who do you think is the "core", and who needs to go?

Core - Couturier, Farabee, Hayes, Aube-Kubel, Lindblom, Hart, Patrick, Provorov. 

Need to go - Giroux, Voracek, JVR, Gostisbehere, Gustafsson, Myers.

30 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

chuck should just find every player with a shooting mentality that's in fa or trades, our farm system etc, i dont want this same team back next year or im not just not going to watch this team again, i feel for the coaches that have to deal with such a garbage roster that was set up by hextall.

Well that's the thing, I don't see that at all. I see a lot of young players that have the talent. but they have not been is a system that they can have success in. So they end up looking lost out there. Don't get me wrong there are players on this team that need to go, but IMO the core is there. I know its not a popular train of thought but its all coaching.

The powerplay, sucks the penalty kill sucks, hell the whole system they play sucks.

18 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

This was a disappointing loss.  There was effort.  But Sorokin was good and the PP couldn't deliver.  And a turnover led to the winner.  What else is new?

Disappointing but not unexpected. I bet not one person on here was comfortable going into the 3rd and expected a win.

WTF is wrong with the power play? which coach is in charge of that **** show?

FFS!!!!!!

I am not a fan of no trade clauses, in my mind it makes players complacent towards the end of their carriers. (not specifically Giroux)

What are everybody's thoughts?

The longer this game goes the sloppier the Flyers get!!

Could the PP look any worse?

This quite possibly could be a make or break game for this team.

If they lose without putting up much of a fight, put a fork in them the season is done.

The only thing left will to be sellers and stock the pantry with next years hopes and dreams.

30 minutes ago, CoachX said:

This is not a "young, raw" team. This is a team that was the hottest in the league a year ago, prior to the covid debacle. They looked great going into the playoffs and got exposed. The players got exposed, not the coach. They got out skated and got beat down because they physically were outmatched.  That is not a coaching issue

 

TK, Giroux, Jake, JVR, were all on offensive hiatus, and still havent returned (jvr has). Hell, Laughton was our number one offensive weapon. Then Nisky bolts and the wheels come completely off. I see mental issues, lack of commitment to their individual jobs, laziness and no heart. In 2 straight games they have been beaten to a pulp, embarrassed on tv and the only guy who stepped up was Lindblom. And to that, the rest of the team did nothing to respond. Hell, TK even said so in the news

 

No, this is not a HEAD COACH issue. This is a player issue

Not at all true. We got beat in the playoffs when we started playing the same team night in and night out. AV refused to make a game plan that could adapt. Proof of this is this year. We started hot but as soon as other team's figured out the game plan we were exposed and AV refuses to change the style of play. If I am so wrong why did we crap the bed in the playoffs when we were the hottest team going in? Same team same players vastly different results.

Hey I get you are obviously an AV fan, but face it he is a ****** coach when it comes to playing the same team multiple times in short periods.

9 hours ago, CoachX said:

Its time!

 

I hope that after this last stretch of bad games, the organization takes steps to completely rebuild. There are a few players to build around, but the rest of the pieces just dont fit.  I dont know if its age, coaching, attitude or a combo, buts its as bad as I've seen 

 

Ultimately,  moving Giroux would be the best move, IMO. But given his continued climb up the Flyer records ladder, and the history of team loyalty, I dont see it. However, if you go into "seller" mode, find a PO bound team with a legit chance, and convince him to do it, it would be the move that would turn the franchise upside down

 

I would do the same with Jake or JVR, then revamp the expansion draft list

 

Coots, Farabee, Provy and Hayes would be my keepers

Agree it's time to ask Giroux to wave his NT clause and ship him to a legitimate contender, Coots is ready to lead this team.

Not sure any team would want Jake but maybe we could get 10 used pucks and a roll of tape for him.

I have a feeling JVR is Seattle bound. I still think the bases of a good team are here, They are young and have only had Hakstol and AV as coaches. incase you haven't noticed I am far from an AV fan. but the question is will Fletcher have the balls to do anything? I think he won't, he well give it another year. Wrong decision IMO.

44 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Disagree with all this

 

Whenever a Flyer team underachieves, its blamed on the coach. 

See that's where we disagree, AV is a decent coach when he has a veteran group and an established all star goalie.

He had both when he had success in Vancouver and NY. he has neither in Philly and refuses to change his coaching ideologies and style to adapt to a very young and raw team. Yes ye are lacking in a couple key areas mainly defense.

But just watch how many times the forwards prematurely leave the defensive zone and the defense is not mature enough to make the right play. In my mind that is 100% on the coaches. AV is not going to change his style to fit the team and the team cannot play his style and win. Hart will be a great NHL goalie in time but right now he is no Luongo or Lundqvist in their prime and that is what AV needs in his system an all star goalie that can keep a sloppy team in the game.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this

But hey we are still Flyer Fans.....cheers 

20 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

Greetings:

 

For the record, I think we have a talent problem more than a coaching one.  That said, it's hard to argue with the numbers, and our defense and PK are awful.  If there is accountability, it needs to start somewhere.  I thought this was a good piece:

 

The Flyers need a coaching change - Broad Street Hockey

 

I would not want to be in CF's shoes.  But he needs to do something.  His squad is coming unglued. 

I agree we need a coaching change, but I disagree about the talent on this team. When they play as a team and with hart they are pretty damn good. The problem is 100% coaching, there is no game plan at all no set plays to break out of your own end or power plays absolutely no motivation. AV and his assistants are crap and need to be fired. 

38 minutes ago, Samifan said:

Even when Hart was red hot last season his puck handling was the worst part of his game. 

Yeah, I agree. But puck handling skill come with time and experience.

I have no doubt he can be a franchise goalie for years to come, as long as AV doesn't ruin him and I'm terrified of that happening.

I am not an AV fan at all, I think he is a horrible HC.

2 minutes ago, Samifan said:

Carter Hart needs to stop playing the puck behind the net. Automatic turnover every time 

He's young, he will get better as long as AV doesn't ruin him with this crappy team in front of him.

Anybody have a paper bag I can borrow? embarrassed to be a Flyer fan tonight.

UnF'nbelievable.

AV needs to be fired, No game plan, they look like headless chickens out there.

AV's job is to come up with a game plan and implement it and motivate his team, and he is doing neither.

Damn I'm mad.... 

Predictions for tonight's game?

I'll start...........Flyers 4 - Isles 2

5 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

And Patrick gets a hat trick...

Don't you mean a Pat Trick.....

2 hours ago, Samifan said:

it starts with this guy. Hold the veterans accountable. Scratch Jake, G, Hayes if need be. Call an Effin timeout once and a while and chew their ass. Change your strategies mid game. Hold Yeo and Therrien accountable for horrible special teams and the youth regressing this year!

That is not AV's coaching style. In Vancouver and NY he had veteran team's with all star goalies (Luongo and Lundqvist) who could hold a sloppy team in games. AV has never been and never will be a good NHL coach.

His team's have no structure and definitely no heart.

IMO this team has talent they just need coaches that put them in a game plan they can execute.

But yes we need to be sellers not buyers on trade day. Jake and G should be on the table for sure.

For those that say Babcock is to gruff to coach anymore, I say that is just what this pathetic no hart team needs.