fanaticV3.0

I am disappointed, but not "surprised."

 

We are seeing a team that has had high hopes for several years and endured losses in the Conference Final and a loss to the Cup champions last year. They have a coach who had also been through the playoff wars.

 

The Rangers are a much better "team" than the Flyers, even if some of the individual pieces may not be as adept.

 

They came in with a game plan to shut Giroux down and make other players beat them. The other players simply haven't taken that opportunity and run with it.

 

VLC remains an egregious, costly mistake in just about every aspect of the game. His play is substandard and his "leadership" isn't apparent. He's forcing guys to play out of position (only because I would like to actually see what Schenn has as the "second line center" he was traded to be) and isn't effective when put into positions of responsibility (no, I don't think second unit PP and sixth guy on empty net plays is the "responsibility" I refer to).

That's on the coaches. Vinny doesn't force anyone to play anywhere. He didn't complain one bit when he was demoted (for about 5 minutes) to 4th line center.

The almost constant line juggling has "gotten old" as the kids put it. Do other teams do it as much as we do? Is that a thing in hockey now? It's so frequent that it baffles my mind how they think anyone can develop any chemistry.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/20140428_Rangers_are_simply_more_talented.html#j2XWwgZMhMw40XGd.99

 

The title is "Rangers are simply more talented" by Mike Sielski. Don't know who he is but...whatever.

 

IMHO it's not about "lack of talent" it's about piss-poor execution. Not even 1 good game in 5 by the Flyers. A month ago they were beating (or skating even with) the best teams in the league; now they're pushed around by the mighty (yeahright) Rangers.

 

Quote from the article:

 

 

Seems to me 99 times out of 100 the more desperate team wins in the NHL...and in the POs it's 100 out of 100. Sielski is implying there are these hugely talented teams who can reserve their desperation, a 110% effort for the close games, whereas the lowly Flyers have to go full-tilt for 60 or else they don't have a chance.

 

Obviously the talent is spread unevenly throughout the league. But I don't buy this "Flyers aren't talented enough to compete" idea.

Yeah, the Rangers are better. So? The Flyers can play better than they have been. I think it's safe to say they really haven't played their best hockey yet. I will also say I think they are capable of beating the Rangers. But overall, the Rangers are a better team. This bugs you?

Guys like Leino are why I always worry about guys like Raffl. I like Raffl's game a lot, but late bloomers scare me.

There is an added element to this that IMO should not be overlooked. While not the Flyers fault, MacDonald has played pro hockey for 7 years at an average of 490K a year. While most of us would be jubilant and certainly MacD's agent(s) should be fired, that is grossly underpaid for a guy playing 12-20min of NHL hockey a night. My point is that he needed to be made whole. 

 

So, the flyers throw 3M more at him for the term of the contract than he is probably worth (at max). He is happy and now set for life. I looked at the comparables and am hard press to see one or two out of 8-10 that I would want (same age, same term). 

I don't care what he made in the past, it's not up to us to make up for that.

I agree with you about point production though. That's why I said what I said about Carle. I'm ok with him not producing 30-40 a year. I think he does a really good job at a lot of other parts of the game. Much better than Carle imo. I just don't like the deal. He'll end up making several million too much when it's all said and done as far as I'm concerned.

What I do like about the deal is that I felt that needed a stud defenseman. While he's not it, they added a pretty good player in the meantime. So if they can add the stud, it's like a bonus.

Too much for too long. I like the player, but $5M for 6 is just too much.

 

By way of comparison, Matt Carle scored 35, 40 and 38 points for the Flyers in the three years before the organization balked at giving him, what? $5.5M (or less before the FA market)

 

Just for the record, that's more points than MacDonald has in his career.

 

Four points in 19 games, -3 for the Flyers. 24 points in 63 games for the Islanders, -19.

 

$5M

 

Heckuvajob Homer

Agreed, but I prefer his all-around game to Carle's. He's still overpaid, but Carle without Pronger was not pretty in his own end. MacDonald, while overpaid, doesn't need anyone to look like a decent player.

Hartnell does a lot of things Schenn can't.

Which means little in the scope of a salary conversation on this teamm I guess.

 

I've grown to like Hartnell over the years. He's not as dumb as he used to be. He's still ridiculously overpaid.

Yes he is 26 and very well could be at his ceiling now and is just more viewed to me as a AHLer. Not everyone can make the cut...also with his size i have to really question his size cause i find it hard to believe he is 6' 4" just don't believe it he plays small in net one of his biggest problems....to start of many.

 

Anyways they may have Neil Little part 2! Chubak and Stolarz have shot to the top of the goaltending prospects...or have for me.

I usually don't like to write a player off after such a small sampling, but Jesus he was terrible. When you factor in the other stuff, no thanks. I'm not interested.

If Boston isn't in the Cup, that would surprise me. I don't think anyone can hang with Boston (in the east) unless Boston beats themselves. They are a few steps above every other team in the east. 

No interest in seeing him be the backup next year at all. He got lit up by a non-playoff team, he's too old to where I find it realistic he'll be making the jump, and how often does the AHL produce a legitimate NHL player anyway? I'm not talking about guys who have played in both leagues, but guys who spent significant time in the A and then prove themselves to be bonafide NHLers?

@fanaticV3.0

 

 Most of the guys I play hockey with are Leaf fans. I was taking some pretty good abuse earlier in the season about how lobsided that trade was. But most of them have come around and are seeing it my way the way JVR (among others) disappeared when it came to crunch time. They're still happy about the trade, just not so happy with JVR.

Tell them to nut up, lol. If they are unhappy with him now, they ain't seen **** compared to when we had him. He was sooo frustrating here.

   As a general rule, I'd like to see the Flyers be patient and find out what they really have instead of dealing them off blindly, ie Bob. I won't say never, because I was thrilled to see JVR shipped out of town. There is a world of difference between B.Schenn disappearing and the how JVR fell off the face of the world when he was not interested. Not interested are the key words there. The work ethic *has* to be there, or the kid is a cancer. JVR produced ok this year (hard not on the top line and top pp btw), but wow...when the Leafs needed him most, he was no where to be found. Sure, the rest of the team sucked also, but this kid gets into a funk and he can't pull out of it. Part of that is lack of effort or being to comfortable. I don't see the same thing with Brayden, he *is* interested, he is growing and progressing as a player. That's all I ask.

I completely agree with you about JVR. I wasn't sad to see him go and will not criticize them team for parting ways with him. I won't ever criticizing a team for parting ways with a guy who isn't playing well here. Now the return for that trade is awful, and I will criticize that, but I don't miss JVR. He showed no signs of being the player he is now here an would not have become that here.

I wish Schenn was a little more consistent, but I'm in no way disappointed in him to the point I want him gone. None of the young guys are going anywhere if I'm in charge right now.

Scott Hartnell is, in fact, the highest paid forward on the team this season.

 

True story.

 

That $3M number is if Schenn gets all his bonuses and the point is that he can't get "all" his bonuses this season.

Well if that isn't a fun fact to start off the weekend, I don't know what is.

I worry - a little - that they have achieved their goal for the season - making the playoffs after a terrible start. They all seemed quite happy with themselves for making the playoffs. I wonder if they simply have taken their foot off the gas now and believe they can pick up the pace next week.

 

The Pens game will be an interesting watch - I'm sure they will remember the back to back wins the Flyers put on them last month. And Carolina is looking very much like a classic "trap" game for them.

 

Every team is going to be "up" to play the Flyers. The Panthers even made things more interesting than they should have been.

 

As it is, they've lost their last seven games against playoff-quality opponents.

Agreed.

I think there's a good chance they get bounced in the first and if it's against Boston, it could be quick and ugly. If that happens, I'm hoping it annoys them much in the way the slow start this year did.

Making 3 million *is* impossible. He has to be an All Star and among the league leaders in points AND win a major award. That's not happening.

 

 

His cap hit - as @aziz notes - is $870K. He will get his "A" level bonus of $850K but it will not count against the cap because of the "bonus cushion".

 

This way of calculating was implemented in the new CBA of 2013, so anything that happened before that (i.e. Chicago w Kane/Toews) doesn't apply.

Doesn't Hartnell make more than that and he's never done either of those two things if I remember correctly?

Scare yet, lol? I don't think he gets $3 mil, I'm just sayin'.

@fanaticV3.0

 

so what ?  people may need to vent but sometimes they should wait and see what's going to happen.  'cause no one knows the future.

 

while it was true he was playing poorly, a lot of people were calling for him to give up the "C" and calling him a bust, it was typical Flyer fan overreaction and short sighted thinking.  And I get the shits of it from time to time.  

 

Pick a young player and see how people are ragging them about their development , it's every goddamned one, Couturier, Schenn, the other Schenn, because they aren't Sidney Crosby and Duncan Keith they suck or are a bust.  

 

Then when the "bum" gets shipped out of town , many of the guys bitching about said bum, get their knickers in a twist over the kid turning into a player elsewhere.  Seasons are long grinds, careers are more than 10 games, this fan base is its own worst enemy ... a lot.  

 

hey feel free to call a spade a spade, I get the need to vent, but if a guy is going to be calling players out, they should be ready to have that crap shoved back in their face when they're proven wrong.

 

IMO the crap at the beginning of the season was short sighted hate for hate's sake.  

The team won one game in their first 8, fired their coach, Giroux didn't score a goal until Nov. 9, and this was the 2nd year in a row he had a bad start. What part of criticizing that is unwarranted or somehow unfair?

Trade him (his value will never be higher).

Ed Snider, give that man a job!

He predicted the playoffs (see this thread) and he delivered.   He's also currently 5th in points, 28th in goals, 6th in assists, 11th in game winning goals & 4th in power play points.  He battled his way through the beginning of the season and has this team playing pretty well.

 

Giroux is a good captain and at age 26, only just entering his prime.

 

Credit where credit is due.

He reminds me of Timonen in the sense that neither is what you'd call "tough" at first glance. They aren't big hitters, aren't big people in general, and don't every fight, but the both of them are quite physical, talk the talk, and often back it up. They are doers. They will call the team out for playing poorly and get sh!t done when it needs doing. 

I remember the howling when he said they'd make the playoffs... people saying he should put up and shut up, people were pretty harsh around here at that time no question.  

 

I thought he was challenging himself and his team, I wanted to see what they would do, He's a great player, and becoming a very good leader,  this team plays for one another, they enjoy each other and I think a lot of that camaraderie comes from 28's example.

 

He's had a nice season, and I hope he continues this upward career trajectory. 

So what? The team was awful and he personally had a terrible start (for the 2nd year in a row). We're all glad he's straightened that out, and the team is back in the POs, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

There Were A Lot Of Posters On Here Bashing His Signing. Now That We're Near The End Of The Season, I Have To Say That I've Been Pleasantly Surprised By Him. 20 Goals And Good Leadership On A Young Team. He's Been Hurt, Moved Around On Different Lines And Still Put Up Pretty Good Numbers...

His contract blows, but his play hasn't really been that bad when you step back and look at the whole season. Him and Schenn were pretty much the only guys producing offensively when the team was awful in the beginning of the season. He's been bounced around from line-to-line and from center to wing throughout the year (and said nothing but the right things when asked about it). He did look very lost/disinterested at a certain point, but when you factor in those things and his health, it hasn't been as bad certain folk like to say. It's been a struggle, I ain't gonna lie, but in a bad year, with injuries, being juggled around, he still manages to get 20 goals. I'd take him over Briere. He's way more versatile. If this is him on a bad year, I give him a pass this year if he gets 40+ points and plays like he's playing now most of the time.

If you want to look at "progression" as a player, he's a career -17 and was -8 last season, but is even this year. Yes, caveat for +/- as a stat

 

Meaning that in 79 games, teams have only scored 16 even strength goals against his line.

 

That's not terrible.

 

He's not a defensive monster like Richards, but he certainly has the ability to center a line that will spend more time in the O zone than the D zone.

"Not terrible" is about as complimentary as I'll get in regards to his defensive play. He's not the worst, but he's not our top PKer or anything. He's not a PKer period (as of this point in his professional career).

Agreed all around.  I'll take it over Cracker Barrel, though.  I cannot stand Cracker Barrel.  Also can't stand the typical people eating there.

Lol, who would that be? Old people and families? I've actually never been to one.

Hmmmmmm grits and cheese potatos with onions (a poor man's poutine in Canada) ha ha! 

That's the thing. In juniors he was very good defensively and offensively. Size, skating, good shooter, excellent passer and strong two way play with great hockey sense.

 

Hockey's future had him listed at an 8.5 probability, which is a step below a Datsyuk/Thornton caliber ceiling, but above a Richards type.

 

But his rating also us a C, which means he could drop 2 spots to 3rd line player, 5th/6th defenseman, etc

 

Right now, that looks like the case

 

All I think is his chances

Having seen him as a pro for a few seasons now, I actually have a hard time believing that. As a pro, the defensive talent isn't there at all. I have a hard time believing he had it and simply doesn't try and use it now.

 I think his "projections" were better offensively, not as good defensively as Richards..

I remember hearing anything from what you said to he'd replace Richards at both ends of the ice. Defensively speaking, neither is right. He's not a good defensive player, let alone close to the best one on the team (Richards, here at least). Whoever made the comparison to Richards, at least in that aspect of the game, was 100% wrong.

Yeah, I would think something like that. He certainly hasn't shown anything like Giroux to warrant a $3+M per annum deal.

 

They could likely get Schenn signed before the deadline at that number - unless they "must" do MacDonald before then.

 

Schenn already got effectively screwed by his agent on "future production" deals because so many of his "bonus" clauses were basically unattainable for anyone not named "Crosby".

 

If they want to test the RFA waters, I certainly let them. I think the Flyers match up to the point where they'd get a 1/2/3 for him ($5M+). And I think that's pretty much The End for Schenn in Philly if he and his agent push it, though. Even if re-signed, he'd have his ticket punched for Edmonton for a skate sharpener and a draft pick.

 

 

IIRC, Richards was never projected to be a #1 center in the NHL. Certainly never called "best player not in the NHL."

 

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/articles/6083/flyers2003_nhl_entry_draft_review/

That sounds about right. That's the only thing I'd say in comparing Richards and Schenn too. Neither is a #1, but they're not similar players either.