elmatus

I mean, @brelic's point is a good one though. I am among the first in line when it comes to both Ghost and Jake, but it's not just a matter of moving them, it's also then a matter of filling their spot.

Right now, our three main RWers are TK, Farabee, and Jake. I would argue Jake is the weakest link there, but he's still an above average RW in this league. Having all three gives us three RW options that are all above average. If we lose Jake, we're presumably not getting a better RW back (why would any team do this), meaning we're almost certainly going to be weaker at that position for having lost him. So while I'm very far from being a Jake fan, I'd rather keep him than be stuck with Pitlick on the third or something.

Now, I personally have a feeling Frost will not be a centre at this level. If Frost shifts to the right and does well there, then maybe it starts to make more sense to move Jake. A lot of stuff has to happen before then though, and I could just as easily be wrong on my projection of Frost.

Ghost is maybe different, in that one-dimensional dmen are really not the best thing to hang on to. At the moment he is clearly a third pairing guy at best, he should never even sniff at a PK, and he almost always makes a giant mess of things when he's on the ice in 5v5. He's still good on the PP, but we have at least one better option there in Provo, and quite possibly more than just him at this point.

That said, what's his replacement if we lose Ghost? Hagg is a fringe NHL player at best. He's "good" at nothing, while Ghost at least has PP value. I could see maybe trading Ghost for a more responsible third pairing dman and a prospect or 1st round pick or something, but I really have no idea how that might work. It would have to be a team who really needs a PP quarterback, since that's all he really offers in terms of value. That is a valuable role of course, but it would require a very specific need on what I imagine would be a very limited set of teams (if any).

That isn't to say Ghost should be long for this team. I'm just not sure it makes a ton of sense to trade him right now in November. 

5 hours ago, brelic said:

As for Jake, I don’t know where he fits. Obviously he can be productive, warts and all. So it’s important that AV finds the best place for him to contribute positively. I don’t think 3rd line with Hayes and Twarynski is it. 

It's a hard sell though. I think anyone watching would say both TK and Farabee have been more impressive than him by a good margin. At the moment, he really is the third RW on the team. Can't fault AV for plugging him there. Not to mention that keeps him away from top competition, which may help reduce his turnover machine tendencies.

Personally, I really like the look of Giroux/Farabee together. I think Giroux should return to the wing of course, but plop Hayes between them and that would seem like a very solid and well-rounded line. Way better imo than Giroux and Voracek, who generally play best when they're away from each other anyway.

12 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Well Hart is expected to start so i expect a better results Elliott was the Leafs best player last game for the first half.

 

At this point, I'm really not sure we can say this with any certainty. Hart has been the very definition of hot and cold goaltending in this first part of the season. It's mostly a question of which Hart will show up. He can be fantastic, but it's hardly a given. At least half the games he's played, Elliott would likely have been the better option (not because Elliott is a world-beater of course).

So, the first thing we need to wish for is for the highly touted version of Hart to show up in this game, rather than the mistake prone version. None of this is a knock on him of course. The ups and downs are going to be the case for him all season as he figures things out and gains valuable NHL experience.

7 hours ago, King Knut said:

Hayes has been trailing off in recent games.  I think he could help balance things if he centered a  line with JVR and Jake (which would be the most beautifully overpaid line in the NHl most likely), but that would leave Frost for the Giroux and Farabee line (I'm only thinking of things in terms of Frost being up and G being a LW again). I'm not sure that's a bad thing, but I'm not sure it's a good thing... I think it's a thing worth trying though.

 

I still would rather see Hayes with Giroux and Farabee. I think those three would compliment each other very well.

We need Laughton back is the truth of it. I don't think we're going to see Frost any time soon.

14 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

He is ready but i guess they prefer to keep him playing big minutes on the Phantoms instead of 8 minutes a night saddled with two sea donkeys.

 

He'll get his chance in the 2nd half of the year.

I actually think this is exactly it. If Frost gets the call, it'll be because Rubstov and Vorobyev have both been given every opportunity and have failed to secure a spot. Even then, my guess is Laughton will be tried in the 3C spot before they would bring up Frost.

The short of it is I don't think they're too keen to bring Frost up at all. They may cave to the pressure if all their other options fail, but that's about it.

1 hour ago, Podein25 said:

And look forward to the day when Hayes is it. 

 

The sad part is this is almost completely inevitable given the rather unfortunate contract, but hopefully we've got at least a few years before his play starts to head downhill. 

Hart was clearly the best on the ice. I suppose this is what it’s like having a young goalie — it’s hard to tell what version of him will show up on a given night. 
 

Farabee was also phenomenal. String together another game or two like that and he’ll be a top six fixture. I really like the pairing of him with Giroux. They should add Hayes to that line when possible imo and give them time to build chemistry. 
 

Niskanen was great. Provo always good. Giroux played well. TLC remained dominant. 
 

If we’re being honest, it’s safe to say they were outplayed for probably the first half of the game. Hart was the difference maker there for sure. 
 

Still, a win’s a win. I’ll take it. 

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

 

One would think that would make for more favorable match-ups for the "old" top line ?

Are we seeing this ? kinda ? 

I think Raffl would be the best finisher on that 3rd line,  even though the other two guys have better shots. Raffl kind of does what needs done.  I think Hazey has been good so far, would like to see him shoot more ( obviously )

I've always been a huge Raffl fan, and I've said as much many times to anyone who wanted to hear it. BUT, a scorer he is definitely not.

That's not to say he can't score -- he can, obviously! It's that he really needs everything to sort of break right for it to happen.

That said, he does so many things phenomenally well. If he had finish, he'd be a top line player.

15 hours ago, phlfly said:

this coach will last until end of the season at max, my bet buy Feb they let him go. 

Not a chance. A new GM brought in an entire new coaching staff made up of three people with a considerable amount of coaching experience, including a HC with one of the better records of the last decade. I'm not saying they'll be around forever obviously, but they're absolutely going to get several years (or at least Vigneault is -- one of the others could always get plucked).

The short of it is AV is here to stay for quite a while yet. GMs don't bring guys like this in for one season or half a season or whatever. He's a long-term hire.

25 James van Riemsdyk -28 Claude Giroux - 49 Joel Farabee
23 Oskar Lindblom -14 Sean Couturier -11 Travis Konecny
12 Michael Raffl -13 Kevin Hayes - 93 Jakub Voracek

I don't hate these, though I would much rather Giroux be put back on the wing. I understand that isn't easy to do given our current lack of adequate centers. On paper, JVR/G/Buzz work quite well as a grinder/playmaker/sniper trio. I kind of worry about their possession metrics though. They'll have to get mostly o-zone starts I think.

I also have no idea who is supposed to be able to score on that third line. All three of those guys seem incapable of picking a corner to save their lives. Hayes and Raffl should give plenty of possession to off-set Voracek's tendency to cough the puck, but they're going to need favorable match-ups to score imo.

Also, when are folks going to start recognizing our 2nd line is very much our top line? Not that it matters a ton, but I'm certain other teams are cognizant of that fact already and adjusting accordingly.

11 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

One point for Giroux, Jake and JVR in the last 3 games...can we disband this sh it line now...because they obviously can't figure it out like AV requested...

I agree 100%. I understand that we have limited options at center, but honestly I'll take a highly productive Giroux on the wing over a middlingly useful Giroux at centre. The added challenge I suppose is in the TLC line being very good. Still, I'd opt for something like:

Lindblom/Couts/TK (let's call this line what it is as our first and best line)

Giroux/Hayes/Farabee (Farabee's got a decent shot. Let him be the finisher here)

And yeah, that makes our third line wonky with:

JVR/Rubstov/Voracek

But that's just where we're at folks. We need to start winning some games, and the vet trio up front just isn't getting it done.

Honestly the saddest part of all that for me is Raffl, who is always good at everything but scoring. He deserves better than fourth line duties, but I guess that's just the reality of this team right now.

Yeah, honestly the Flyers played well though. Both teams played well. It was a good game all around. Certainly it was better than the last few games.

And Provorov. Seriously. This kid is going beastmode in front of our eyes. He was dominant every time he was on the ice, and his skill on the PP was elite level. There's no way he's giving up that PP1 spot now.

TLC played well as always. Giroux played well. Hayes played well. Niskanen played well. I thought Myers played well also. If he can remain consistent, I think we may have found our missing second pairing dman.

So yeah, it may have been a loss, but it was a solid step forward from what they've shown on the ice of late. I'll take it.

1 hour ago, FD19372 said:

I would kick the tires on a trade such as offering Voracek and Morin to Detroit for Anthony Mantha and a 2nd before I would do that. The Red Wings are one of the few teams that might go for that, and have the cap space to take on Voracek's ridiculous contract.

I can't see them going for that. Would you?

High profile vets typically only garner real interest from teams who feel they're one vet away from contention. Detroit is in a rebuild right now. I can't see them wanting a guy like Voracek, and Morin is really an AHLer at best at this point. Mantha on the other hand has been quite productive this year. I just can't see it.

If I'm looking at the list, I'd say maybe Colorado or Montreal. Those are pretty much the only two that seem to fit the bill imo. I'm not sure what contracts they have coming up though. They may need some of that cap space to resign some of their young guns or something.

36 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

RE: Patrick

 

Does anyone know what is going on with him outside of a few doctors, Nolan & family and some Flyers officials ?

You know what nevernind, I'll answer for you.

No.

No one does, so the speculation about his future, and the subsequent lamentation about picking him, is based on zero knowledge beyond. 

"he has migraines" .

The pick is not a bust yet, the pick is not a success yet...jesus palamino, can people just be a little patient ? 

There is no new news, nothing has changed. He was week to week and is still week to week. 

shoulda traded the pick, i fear he's not going to....give it rest please. 

 

So, you're saying they should have just traded the pick? You have a migraine?

3 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

28 Claude Giroux - 13 Kevin Hayes - 93 Jakub Voracek
23 Oskar Lindblom - 14 Sean Couturier - 11 Travis Konecny
25 James van Riemsdyk - 19  German Rubtsov - 49 Joel Farabee
12 Michael Raffl - 18 Tyler Pitlick - 81 Carsen Twarynski

9 Ivan Provorov - 15 Matt Niskanen
6 Travis Sanheim - 61 Justin Braun
53 Shayne Gostisbehere - 5 Phil Myers

I can get behind much of that, though we're going to need more out of Sanheim if he wants to keep that spot on the second pairing. If Myers plays even reasonably well and Sanheim continues to be a train wreck, Myers should be rewarded by getting more ice time on the 2nd. You know how hard it is for me to trust inexperienced players right away. I'm not expecting miracles from Myers, but the truth is he doesn't have much for competition aside from the top two right now. He doesn't have to play very well to be considered our third best dman right now, which is a sad state of affairs...

I'm also okay with Hayes on the first line, though really our 2nd line is our top line right now. I would adjust to maybe:

23 Oskar Lindblom - 14 Sean Couturier - 11 Travis Konecny

28 Claude Giroux - 13 Kevin Hayes - 49 Joel Farabee

25 James van Riemsdyk - 19  German Rubtsov - 93 Jakub Voracek
12 Michael Raffl - 18 Tyler Pitlick - 81 Carsen Twarynski

Farabee has room to grow, but I like what he's brought in terms of play on the ice. I think it's just a matter of time before he starts to convert some of those great chances he's had to date. Why not put him in a position to succeed on the second line with more minutes? I like the combo of Giroux and him quite a bit. Certainly I like it more than I do Giroux/Voracek.

4 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Some nice deck chairs you got there...

I think they brought Myers up too.

Honestly, at least he's trying to do something. Morin was awful. Vorobyev was invisible. Twarynski had some early success, and Rubstov is probably the obvious option for a fourth line center right now. I don't know that I'd expect amazing things, but it's something. I like bringing up Myers and giving him a shot too. Our defense is porous. 

The next step would have to be making some trades for more defensive guys, which imo starts with moving Ghost. But yeah, at least it's something.

32 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

no one may not like this idea but i think they have to get more experience on d.

I don't think many would argue, but we may be quick to point to a certain Matt Niskanen and Justin Braun. Others might also float the name of a certain Shayne Gostisbehere, who is definitely firmly in the veteran category at this point.

Now granted, Niskanen has been doing quite well paired with Provo, and Braun hasn't been a complete failure (though he's definitely no more than a 4th or so). Our real struggles on defense include Morin (very understandable), Sanheim (still pretty understandable), Hagg (no surprise), and Ghost (a big problem imo).

I like the call up for Myers, though I doubt he's going to be a real savior either (nor should we expect him to be). Maybe he can slot in on the second pairing with Braun and run with that for a while. Of course that means a Sanheim/Ghost third pairing, which isn't ideal with the way they're both playing. Gotta play with the cards you're dealt though.

I'll say yet again that Ghost should be moved. Give Provo his spot on PP1 and be done with it. Get what you can for him as a PP specialist from a team that needs a PP specialist, and bring in someone whose strength is actually playing defense. We need that more. 

@brelic #GetFletchOnThePhone

2 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

I agree about the talent gap problem. Past Flyers teams were never the most talented in the league but they were always worked harder than every other team. They were tough and tenacious and never quit and always had great leaders. The 1985 and 1987 team for example.

I'll note first that I agree with your post. I just want to add a bit to it.

The game as it is played today is quite different from the 80s. For one thing, players are as a whole significantly more talented, trained, and prepared to the Nth degree with videos and every coach/counsellor/trainer/nutritionist/etc you can imagine. There is really no comparison in terms of the sheer talent and skill on display between now and the 80s, even less so the foolish amount of support they receive once they reach the big league.

At the same time, cap realities are a thing now, whereas they were not in the 80s either. It was entirely possible for franchises to just buy a team that would almost invariably end up being very good to great. That's not possible nowadays. The cap era has brought about huge equalization between teams, which is clear by virtually any metric we might care to look at.

So how do those same half dozen teams remain contenders for so long? Well, for one I think @brelic is right in his assessment of the importance of top level talent. And by top level, I really mean top level. The kind of guy you only get when you're picking way at the top, and likely for at least 2-3 years. We've talked about this before, but essentially any team we can look at that has been considered a true contender in the past decade plus has had the benefit of top picks on their rosters. That's clearly not an accident.

So cup pressures are one. Another issue with the NHL of 2019 is that there are over 30 teams, which again only serves to dilute talent even further. Combining those two situations together, we have a league where having a McDavid is as effective as having 3-4 Giroux. Get a second one in Draisaitl, and you're just going to outright win half your games, even if you have to score a dozen goals to do so.

It's annoying and stupid, but it really looks like the winning formula in this cap era is sucking badly enough that you get top picks, and often for more than one year. As @brelic well noted, the Flyers have been on the bubble for so long, they've just never had that opportunity. Mediocrity breeds mediocrity in the modern NHL.

37 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

Speaking of Ghost - does anyone think he will return to form?  Probably after we trade him.

He's never been great defensively. I doubt he'll ever really develop that part of his game now. It's just not his style.

Offensively he can still be decent. He still moves the puck well on the PP in particular. The problem is that's really all he seems to do well at this point. That was fine when we had no real other QB options for that role, but with Provo emerging as a legit two-way threat this season, Ghost is becoming increasingly expendable in his only real niche role.

If it had been me, I would have traded him last season, but GMs always seem to be an extra season behind, which tends to mean a lower return than we'd get otherwise (see: Simmonds). My honest guess is Ghost will be moved either mid-season if the right deal comes around or just before the Seattle expac. I don't think he will be a Flyer in 20-21. He's too easily replaceable with other options we now have -- most notably Provo, who is significantly better than him at pretty much everything at this point.

8 hours ago, MaineFlyFan said:

I like how when the team wins a game, there is like one page to that thread.....when they loose?.... 4-5 pages of opinion on how to fix it.

 

God love this place. I'll be over at the "Islanders game thread" freaking out about Hart if anyone needs me.....

Haha, we post because we care!

Yeah, I mean the game wasn't all bad. The guys who have been playing well still played quite well (including Elliott of all people). Giroux and JVR looked good in this one again also, which is nice. 

Our back end was all kinds of bad though. Between Morin, Sanheim, and Ghost... I mean, I just don't know. The most noticeable for me was when Morin and Ghost were paired up. That was a circus act at best. Now of course Morin obviously could benefit from experience at this level, so it's hard to knock him too much. Ghost though... I honestly think our Ghost problem is one that warrants a lot more attention than it's been getting.

If nothing else, AV shouldn't be putting a guy he knows is garbage defensively with a guy who has virtually no experience playing at this level. It's possible he did that just to bolster the top four, but the Jackets walked all over them every time those two were on the ice together.

Sanheim also had a bad game. But he's had plenty of good to great games in his short time here. Let's see what the coaching staff works with him on, and if that helps turn him around some. To me, it seems like he's watching Provo and wanting to emulate him, but he's just not at that level yet.

Couts/Lindblom/TK were all still solid. Giroux and JVR played well. Hayes played well (though he really needs to learn to shoot). Provo and Niskanen were still very good. Raffl remained his steady self. So yeah, the players who have been good remained good, they just weren't enough to overcome the bad (mostly from the back end).

And Hart. He was very bad. At one point I noted to @brelic how they must be showing him tapes of Bryzgalov or something with all that flopping and almost trying to get out of the way of the puck at times. It was bad.

I mean we just have to hang in there and give him time I think. It's definitely waay too early to judge him in any real way (as with so much of this team honestly). 

The team that played better deservedly won the game last night. It's about as simple as that.

7 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

So looked like Raffl gets bumped up....

 

Good. Raffl has always the kind of guy who can play well regardless of his spot in the line up. I've said this before, but if Raffl had any real finishing ability, he would be a top line guy. He does so many things so well. He just can't score to save his life.

On 10/25/2019 at 11:47 AM, radoran said:

FIFY. Elliott had several strong stretches for the Blues that likely surpass this.

He did, but he was splitting time for much of those seasons with Halak, and those Blues teams played virtually all defense all the time. Sure, he was a part of it, but context I think is important in that case.

It's telling he has never come close to reproducing those numbers anywhere else in his career.

Don't get me wrong, I actually don't hate Elliott as much as others around here, but he's always been a back up at best imo. The fact he was thrust into a primary role is not ideal.

Pretty hard to judge Fletch this early. The best we can do is project -- which is reason number one for having a forum like this.

So far it looks like changing up the coaching staff was by far his best decision. That shouldn't be a shocker given how bad Hakstol was, but Fletch made that call, so he deserves the credit. He also brought in two other former head coaches, which isn't necessarily something most GMs would have done.

They don't have an amazing starting record or anything, but they're playing a different style of game than what they have in recent memory. They're far more up tempo and pushing the play than they were under Hakstol. That's a coaching thing first and foremost to me. Also the def is playing significantly different than Hakstol's approach of sitting them back and having them fire shots from barely in the zone. Again, that strikes me as a coaching thing.

So yeah, AV is doing very well in my opinion, despite their record not really showing it yet. Is it a winning system? I hope so. It's a more interesting one to watch if nothing else.

It helps that TK and Lindblom seem to be coming into their own too! And this system definitely seems to be working much better for a high skill guy like Provo.

I'll start by saying that I only watched the first two periods, but I thought they played very well last night. The Couts/Lindblom/TK line is pure dynamite every time they hit the ice. At this point, I think it's safe to consider them the defacto top line on the team. That's clearly true in terms of production; it's also true just based on performance on the ice. All three of those guys have been the best forwards on the team by a mile since the very first puck drop.

I like that Giroux and JVR got some points in this one. I'm honestly not at all worried about Giroux. We all know what he's capable of, and guys like that don't just fall off the earth from one season to the next. It's only a matter of time before he returns to form imo. But I'm happy he got on the board.

I'm also totally fine with AV's approach to the core vets, putting them all together and basically telling them to figure it out. First off, the "second" line should be largely untouchable with the way they're playing, so this trio only makes sense anyway. Also, it means they really have no one to blame but themselves. All three have been very productive NHL players in their careers. Let them figure it out. Until they do, we get to watch the Couts/TK/Lindblom line take over games as they have been.

And on the back end, I'm really digging the Provo and Niskanen combo. Provo has been an absolute monster since the start of this season, turning on the heat in a way I don't remember having ever seen before. I do think Niskanen is a part of that. I also think the coaching and system that AV is asking for just frankly suits a guy like Provo's skill set way better than whatever Hakstol was trying to put together. For me, the dcorps is where coaching and systems tends to have a huge effect. Up front, so much is just about raw skill and performance; the back end has a lot more to do with structure, communication, and teamwork, all of which are things that come first and foremost from coaching. 

Whatever it is, if Provo can keep this up the whole way through, he's going to have a beast of a season.

Elliott also, I mean, I hate the fact he had to bail out the team so much in the first, but he did it. Honestly Elliott has never ever played as well as he has in these last two games. Can he keep it up? Well, probably not, but hey, I'll take it for as long as we can get it. As far as Hart goes, I really don't buy the idea he needs to be playing a ton. I'm absolutely fine with him splitting games down the middle with Elliott, especially while Moose is hot like he has been these last couple. He is still so young and is being asked to play a very high pressure position on the team. Give him the space and time he needs to figure it out.

Anyway, it's obviously easier to talk positive after a win, and this post is no different, but I do think last night's game was worthy of note if nothing else. Hopefully they can keep the momentum going.