caluso

4 hours ago, CreaseAndAssist said:

Fletcher has tossed away a 2nd round and a 3rd round pick and is now way overpaying for a player.  Yikes folks, this is deja vu...

It is beyond comprehension. This is a guy who was benched in the playoffs and we pay him like he is a savior. What does this say about Patrick. If Patrick is really going to become the 2nd line center, then we will be paying our 3rd line center 7.14 million a year.

We trade for Braun whose numbers are beyond bad; we trade for Niskanen whose numbers are declining and we retain salary, for good measure What's next, trading for Chara?

It took years to free up cap space and "Fleece-Me" Fletcher undid that in less than a week. Comical. 

9 hours ago, elmatus said:

 

All good stuff. The M-NTC with Seattle expac is the only part that bothers me some.

What is "good" about acquiring an older, worse, player AND retaining salary.

Lose, lose and lose.

Typical Flyer deal. 

I try and look at it from an opposing teams point of view. I really don't want Vinny or Umberger unless i'm getting them at a reduced price, and or a prospect or pick is sent along with one or the other. If I'm an opposing GM and you call wanting to unload a center you have, I'm talking B Schenn or Couturier only, if you're not willing to eat half of Vinny or Umbergers salary. Nashville have good young d-men, I'm not sure why a deal involving B Schenn hasn't been worked out between the two

agreed. there's no point in simply giving him away.

perhaps another centerman will get injured, in which case VLC will have some value.

who knows, but the VLC signing was a typical Gomer blunder

they couldn't just buy hartnell out without having major cap implications.

as i understand it, umberger has a clause in his ocntract that allows him to be bought out and the cap hit will only be 2 mill.

here you go:

It would cost them $9 million in cash over the next three seasons to buy out Umberger. His current $4.6 million salary-cap hit would become $1.6 million for the next 3 years, then $1.5 million for the next 3 years after that. It's an immediate cap savings of $3 million.

With that Canadian television deal kicking in, the salary cap is expected to rocket to $75 million in 2015-16. Meaning that $1.6 million in dead space due to Umberger would be an increasingly smaller drop in the bucket each year the cap grows, which it will with continuously record-setting revenues.

So, why would the Flyers buy out Umberger after just trading for him? He's a lot cheaper to buy out than Scott Hartnell, who had 2 years more left on his deal. That's a savings of $10 million in cash for a team that is now internally pulling on the purse strings. The fourth-round pick in last week's trade would just be a bonus.

Umberger was in town last week and was not given any indication he would be bought out. Players must be bought out by 5 p.m. today.

Since the Flyers are desperate to rid themselves of a bad deal, Umberger makes even more sense than Lecavalier. A bad year for Lecavalier is 20 goals; it would be a borderline career year for Umberger to climb over that mark again

Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/20140630_Salary_cap_not_friendly_to_Flyers.html#TcgFT1DjpYAKp8uH.99

um, cough cough, sounds like somebody has a man crush already! Did you get his shoe / skate size?? 

that's funny....in a weird sorta way

Yeah, but really, if they were to do that, why not just buy out Hartnell and let him go play where he wants (other than the years thing). 

they couldn't just buy hartnell out without having major cap implications.

as i understand it, umberger has a clause in his ocntract that allows him to be bought out and the cap hit will only be 2 mill.

What the hell are you guys talking about??? The Flyers aren't going to trade for a guy, turn around and buy him out. They've done some stupid stuff in the past, but that top them all.

that might be the EXACT reason they traded for him. especially, if the whole goal was to clear cap space.

as i understand it, if they buy him out, it will only cost 2 mill against the cap.

@caluso  I don't think that kind of a clause would be legal, because it would circumvent other league rulings. You are only allowed the two compliance buy outs, spanning from last year to this year. I don't see how the league would allow a contract with that type of stipulation in it, and they are the ones that approve the deals....or at least the NHL's vast team of executive lawyers. They probably have their own law firm...legal bills must be astronomical.

i read he could be bought out for 2 million.

i honestly don't know if such a clause is legal or not, but other hard salary cap leagues permit such things.

hmmm....

i read that umberger has a clause that he can be bought out. is that true?

Well if folks think we could get a 2nd for VLC (and some more than that), than certainly we could get a 2nd for Hartnell.

I would have been thrilled with 2 number 2s.

What does umberger bring that raffl, read, heck, even Bellemare, doesnt.

Wouldn't it have been better to rid the Hartnell contract entirely...

I agree wholeheartedly with what Meltzer writes:

Nevertheless, this trade perplexes me a bit, unless it is the first of multiple moves. 

Umberger's cap hit ($4.6 million) is not that much lower than Hartnell's ($4.75 million) and his contract runs through 2016-17, so this trade cannot be characterized as one that has significant cap-related advantages. Hartnell and Umberger are both 32 years old. 

If the draft pick had been a higher one, I would have understood the benefit immediately. If Philly had gotten an extra second-round pick or some such, the deal could be explained as general manager Ron Hextall starting to collect assets. Umberger is strictly a third-line player, albeit a good one. The pick the Flyers got is a negligible additional asset in exchange for someone who has been a first-line left winger on the club and has been part of several successful line combinations over the years. 

Umberger is a definite upgrade over Steve Downie as a fit on the third line with Sean Couturier and Matt Read. He wins a lot of battles and usually plays a disciplined game, whereas Downie has rarely done the latter in his NHL and was not doing much of the former this past season. 

Now the big question: Who will be the Flyers new first line left winger? As of now, the job may go to Brayden Schenn, along with Hartnell's role on the top power play unit. If that's the case, it means the Flyers will be in the market for another top-six forward.

We shall see in the days and weeks to come what Hextall has planned. 

We shall see....

so what the $#@% do you do with him then? Many fans expressed their unhappiness at seeing BSchenn on the wing this year to accommodate VLC (an experiment that was much too short-lived imo). So if Vinny is centering the 2nd line next year we'll really hear some howling.

 

Nobody knows when or if BSchenn will put the pieces together and become a consistent offensive threat. That uncertainty probably gets him traded this summer - or more likely on draft day. But if he's in the O&B in October and VLC is healthy... what's a HC to do?

it's funny, i was going to post that the VLC signing might be Holmgren's worst move yet. yes, even worse than the  Bryz deal; at least Bryz was signed to fill a perceived (key word, cause i loved Bob) void.

the VLC signing made no sense given that our supposed strength was up the middle. why not throw that money at a winger or d-man.....i guess that's what happens when you have no real plan and you insist on throwing darts.

gomer just doesn't get that this is a hard salary cap league and every penny matters. what are the odds that our resident genius gives somebody a second rounder to take VLC off our hands. we don't need a stinking second rounder, anyway. 

No it isn't. He started at 0.39ppg, then 0.55ppg, and 0.5 this year. So this year and last year don't show progress.

 

I'm not going to defend Schenn on the basis that he's shown us anything. I've said in another thread that I'm really disappointed in Schenn, and that's probably because my expectations were too high based on the "best player not in the NHL" tagline. Well, I just don't see it. 

 

 

Yes, they were easy to defend against in this series. Against the Rangers. In 2014.

 

But what about 3 years from now? When Schenn is 25 and approaching his prime, Giroux is 29 and in his prime, Couturier 24 and should have had a breakout year, Laughton will be 22-23 and very comfortable with the game. Simmonds will be 28 and in his prime. Voracek will be 27 and in his prime. Mason will be 28 and in his prime as well. Ghost, Morin, Hagg should all be on the blueline. Timonen will be 43 and still ticking as the #1... Ok, I'm kidding about that part

 

I'm optimistic about the future of this team. 

 

All that being said, I still think Brayden Schenn will be traded this summer. He's been disappointing and this franchise does not have patience.

When I watched Voracek develop, it was clear he had the skills.

I see no signs from Schenn that he will be more than a role player.

Do you watch him play? Do you ever come away and say, "what a great game he played."

I don't.

So what? After going from 38 to 50 points in one year, Jake scored less (than 50) every year for the next 3 years. He only just reached his highest points total in a single season this year - his 6th season.

So what? After going from 38 to 50 points in one year, Jake scored less (than 50) every year for the next 3 years. He only just reached his highest points total in a single season this year - his 6th season.

Averaging a half a point per game as the team's second line center and as someone who also plays on the power play ain't chopped liver. They are the stats of a mediocre player; and if that player is a top 6 forward, that is a sign that the team is in trouble.

And the point of the ppg analysis was to point out that he has not progressed at all. In fact, he is trending in the wrong direction.

Averaging a point every other game at 21 and 22 isn't exactly chopped liver.

There's a reason entry level deals are for three and there are still years to go as an RFA.

Flyers will re-sign Schenn to a bridge deal in the $3M range and see what they have in two years.

Oh, wait, it's Homer. Eight years, $45M, NMC.

who of "our youth" is overvalued? Couturier? He's about the only roster player who's 21 and imo he's not overvalued at all. He's under-used offensively; the Flyers seem content to let him be a shutdown forward and I know he's got more than that.

 

There's 2 guys who are 23 - Akeson and Rinaldo, you mean them? After them - besides BSchenn - "our youth" doesn't really apply.

 

Anyway I'm (mostly) on board with what you said about Schenn. I've been crabbing all year about him, saying how he's not impressing anyone...nobody is afraid of him in the league...he's not a "weapon" on the ice except once in a blue moon. (no blue moons the past 2 weeks obviously)

 

All year folks said "be patient canoli" and they were right. It would be stupid to - whoops, sorry (!) it would be silly to say "he has no upside." The guy is 22 years old; his upside is still in front of him. But - and this is probably why you're fed up with him too - the fact is everybody said he was "The Best Player Not In The NHL" a few years ago. Remember? He was supposed to easily surpass Voracek and Simmonds in those trades*. Those 2 were "great we got a couple role players too" and BSchenn was the Star, the guy we *really* traded for.

 

He hasn't come close to living up to the build up. Maybe the expectations were off but a few flashes here and there don't describe a diamond-in-the-rough. For 7 games against the Rangers he was all but invisible - certainly not the only one but he really turned in a DUD of a series.

 

Still I'd like to keep him - if possible - for 1 more season. He may very well be a late bloomer - and if he is it'll be Justin Williams, Patrick Sharpe all over again.

 

[edit: * i realize i lumped the 2 trades together...seems fair to do in context]

the Flyers have an alarming habit of mis-valuing their own players. the list is endless. if they stick with Schenn as their number 2 center, they will be very easy to defend in a short series: stop G and V and the Flyers won't be able to score, outside of the PP. sound familiar?

what makes you say that his upside is still in front of him? what has he shown you that i am missing? he was gifted the number 2 center position and failed to deliver, showing no improvement whatsoever along the way. as brelic inadvertently pointed out, his ppg is exactly the same now as it was when he came into the league. he has no hockey sense; i can't take anymore of his ridiculous behind the back passes to the opposition. additionally, he's a turnover machine and his creativity is non-existent. what the hell was he doing in game 6 before he flubbed that pass to simmonds?

as i said in another post, how many times have you said, "man, schenn played great today," or something to that effect. he just doesn't positively impact the game for the flyers and you can't be saying that about your number 2 center. he is a detriment to the flyers success.

my point about Courtier is not to give him away for less than full value

 

but do not treat him as an untouchable.

 

You can always find a shut down 3rd line center

 

this team needs another stud center

and wingers with skill.  They have nothing besides Vorachek

i completely agree with what you are posting.

i have been posting how overvalued our youth is, especially B Schenn. Schenn has no upside. There are at least 40 players his age - or younger - who I would rather have. The fact that he's our second line center kills us -  it puts too much pressure on our top line, which, as i have been posting, is really only 2/3 of a top line.

Brayden Schenn, Luke Schenn, Brayden Schenn, Luke Schenn, Brayden Schenn, Luke Schenn, Brayden Schenn, Luke Schenn, Brayden Schenn, Luke Schenn, Brayden Schenn, Luke Schenn, Brayden Schenn, Luke Schenn, Brayden Schenn, Luke Schenn, Brayden Schenn, Luke Schenn, Brayden Schenn, Luke Schenn, Brayden Schenn, Luke Schenn, Brayden Schenn, Luke Schenn.......G TFO!!!!!!!!!!

i see a pattern

You realize that on a ppg basis Schenn has made No progression at all.

2011/12 -18 pts 54 gp

2012/13 - 26 pts 47 gp

2013/14 - 41pts 82 gp

he has improved his production each year, this is his first "full" season in the league.

when he plays center he is much more productive and effective, he has played center for maybe half the games this year and last. He's good enough to play second line minutes out of position.

I'm not ready to call him a bust, last night (game 6 NYR) he was quite effective I thought his line was good.

I understand and share some of your frustration but when I step back and think about the player and look at his stats, he's getting better . I have said he's about to the point where guys "break out" , i too am ready for this to happen. He could still be a very good player in the league, he has the tools and mindset / work ethic.

What progression has Schenn made? He is given second line minutes yet produces like a third or fourth line player. His positive influence on games is so infrequent. When was the last time you said, "Wow, Schenn is all over the ice?" Or something to that effect.

I am tired of the argument that he is 22 and will only get better. Really? IMHO he has no hockey sense and has a very low ceiling.

Look at the Colo / Manny series if you want to see what real young talent is supposed to look like.