caluso

i think this was an excellent trade by Gomer. i cant believe i just wrote that!

he is young, mobile and blocks a ton of shots. he's very solid and his presence should help streit a lot. it should also solidify the other two pairings as he allows timonen to be reunited with coburn, and schenn to be paired with grossmann.

people compare him to carle and i get that, but, having watched a ton of islander games, i can say he is a lot better than carle was.

also, i know that he wants top-tier money, but we have timonen coming off the cap and i think he is someone who can help in the long haul.

I love this guy!

plays hard every shift, fights for his teammates (literally). great teammate.

i know the kings won the cup with richards but i love that trade more and more with each passing day.

The definitely ratcheted up the compete level and their play positionally has been much better.  Mason looks like he is regaining his form from the start of the year.  Giroux has been outstanding.  Dare I say that Luke Schenn has played well since being paired with Gus.  I think when Timonen gets back, Mez is back to the press box.  I also liked the Voracek goal.  More evidence that they need to keep the forecheck going when they establish a 3rd period lead.  This trip is something to build on.  

since you brought up timonen, i think we should use him sparingly when he gets healthy.

he's my favorite flyer, but it is painfully obvious how slow he's gotten; his heart won't allow him to quit, though. a warrior.

i have been really impressed with the competitiveness of the team these last three games. if we could sustain that...

and, our gap control has been fantastic. i hate to oversimplify things, but when we aren't impersonating the keystone kops in our own zone, we are pretty good.

Second in the league in points over the last three years... Sounds about right to me.

as i said, i am truly not sure. only time will tell. he's a great player, no doubt, but...

He puts up pts that are averages 1pt or more per game. He's a top 20 player and if you tried to trade him you are not going to get any player who's ranking higher than him. Not every player is a Crosby, ovechkin, Stamkos, towes... But Giroux is a good player and still hasn't reached his full potential.. Let him be...

starting next year - excluding any buyouts - he will be tied for the 8th/9th highest player in the league and the 4th highest paid forward.

is he worth that?

@caluso

 

 I don't think anyone other than Paul Holmgren thinks Giroux is worth 8 million. And that includes Giroux.

thats funny. and sad, at the same time.

when will they take Gomer's keys away?

Fine. You're right. I hope for your sake they trade him for bupkis and the team never makes the playoffs again.

It would bensonmich better than paying someone of giroux's caliber that much money.

This board often makes me wonder what hockey you guys are watching, what hockey you grew up watching.

It's like y'all went to the Timmy P. and Sammy C. College of Whitney brat haters or something.

You want evidence? When did the team start winning again this season?

All Those guys like Raffl and VLC who left his line? How are they looking since leaving?

He's not a god, he's not 100%, but no one is except St. Stamkos or Satan Crosby maybe.

Thanks for the textbook definition of a hero. Mind reciting the text book definition of "pain in the ass" for us too? Never mind, just look up metaphor and hyperbole and leave it at that.

How can you have even watched any of this season alone and disagree with the fact that The team goes and Giroux goes? When he's up, they're up. There's more to the game than the score sheet, but he happens to be leading that in most categories too.

You're grumpy because he's not Stamkos. Sorry about that. Good luck getting over it.

Myself, I'm happy tht he is Giroux and I'm not sorry about that.

 

i never compared giroux to stamkos. and, again, i like giroux. i am just not sure he is worth 8 million per year.

and if your argument is that if giroux - and the top line - play well, then so will the team. ok, makes sense, especially because the top line sees a disproportionate amount of ice time.

but, if you are trying to convince me that giroux is "carrying" the team, then i don't buy it.

Giroux is the life blood of this team. Period.

No captain and perhaps no single player has been this central to a flyers team in some time. -for better or worse.

As Giroux goes so goes the team. They feed off him. They seem to almost unconsciously follow his lead in almost all things on the ice. It's scary to be honest.

But besides that, the guy is inching toward a point per game again which is amazing considering where he started out. He plays more minutes per game than anyone besides coburn (who you all hate too). A center playing more minutes per game than 5 of 6 defenseman! Think in that. He plays any situation needed well and he has that extremely special ability to create a play out I nothing.

Stamkos can score from anywhere and that's amazing and he's given MSL a second career, but Claude turns a dead play into something special when he has the puck an he doesn't just make the players around him better, he makes them look alive.

He doesn't have the size, but the guy he reminds me Of is Forsberg. He knows he can take control of the game and often does. When he's in that zone, he almost looks like he fails himself, not that the other guys stopped him.

Trading JVR for Luke was moronic. JVR could have grown into the line mate Claude needed, but they were both learning together and JVR is a follower not a leader who can't really handle pressure well so he needed a different situation o learn and grow.

As it is, Claude makes everyone he plays with better.

He, Coots and Simmer are the future of this team.

If you consider trading any if them, then someone named Weber had better be coming back in return. But for Giroux... I honestly don't know what I'd give him up for.

I would have liked him to play like this from the start but Homer let his best allies slip away and then Claude missed training camp (and the te squandered it with a coach that wasn't to make it two weeks into the season).

Is he a Stamkos? No, but he's something different too. He has things to his game that Stamkos or other "elite" players don't have.

Give him a John LeClair to play with and watch what he does. But in the mean time let's all stop pretending he's a disappointment. He's a hero.

"A hero refers to characters who, in the face of danger and adversity or from a position of weakness, display courage and the will for self sacrifice—that is, heroism—for some greater good of all humanity."

Giroux is far from a "hero." I am not saying he is a disappointment, but he aint a hero.

I like Giroux, I think he has amazing hands and plays as if he cares - most of the time. The real question is: is he worth 8 million per year in a hard salary cap league? I am not sure.

I disagree with a lot of what you posted.  Who does he make better? Why has his line had at least 4 different wingers, outside of Voracek, already this year? In fact, last year Giroux said he was lucky to be playing with Voracek, who is always looking to set Giroux up, for better or worse.

Also, you said that "he has things to his game that other elite players don't have." Can you be more specific. 

The biggest assertion which I wholeheartedly disagree with is that "he can take control of the game and often does." Really? How many games has he singlehandedly won for us?

Like I said, I like Giroux, but I think your perception of him is a little unrealistic.

This post would make more sense if you pointed at the actual post I quoted, but I guess I'm still your favorite?

Generalities are not universal. Overall, look at this forum and honestly say it's a temple of patience, while hypocritically preaching it. It's getting a little ridiculous in some ways.

Fire (and trade) all the things!

bingo!

initially, i thought one of Gomer's strengths was drafting talent but the organization's player development was seriously flawed. after a few years of seeing the talent Gomer has acquired, i am not so sure my initial impression was correct. however, it doesn't change the fact that the organization lacks vision and lacks the systems to grow their own talent. and that has to be an issue with the whole organization, AHL to NHL. 

with the hard salary cap, it is imperative to develop your own. other "winning" organizations seem to find a way to do it. why can't we?

one of my biggest gripes with laviolette was his staunch insistence on relegating younger players to the third and fourth line irrespective of how they were playing. giroux is a perfect example. it was clear to me early on that this guy was special but it took a while - too long, in my opinion - before he was given more responsibility, responsibility that he clearly earned.

in my opinion, if a player is hustling and busting his butt, he should be rewarded and i don't care if he's a rookie or 10 year vet. it's that simple. the flip side of that is true, too. if your first round pick is dogging it, he should ride the pine. 

Greetings:

 

I thought Morganti's piece in the Inquirer was quite good. Maybe he looked to the board for inspiration.

 

This is an accurate assessment. And I agree with the notion that the sum of the parts is a lot less than the whole.

 

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/nuf-said-morganti/Its-do-or-die-time-for-Holmgren-flawed-Flyers.html

 

Morganti is a Comcast guy. This is a candid assessment. 

 

Best,

 

Howie

a lot of what he said is spot on.

interestingly, the flyers seem to play their best when they are free-wheeling, a style that doesn't work in the east against the rangers, bruins, devils, blue jackets, hurricane....

not only that, they need stupendous goaltending in order to have a shot since their team d is horrible! even during that mini hot streak, it was the outstanding goaltending that kept them afloat. when the goaltending is merely average, they have very little chance of prevailing.

@aziz

 

It's amazing where you can pick talent.....IF you actually hang on to draft picks instead of dealing them off for a few weeks of players at the end of their careers.

brilliant!

i can't tell you how many times i was left shaking my head after Gomer threw in yet another second rounder - as if they don't matter.

chara - 56th pick

weber - 49th pick

lidstrom - 53rd pick

keith - 54th pick

desjardins - 38th pick

 

 

the flashier offensive defensemen, yeah, really high draft picks, but i don't think an erik karlsson or pk subban help the flyers really at all.  solid, foundational dmen don't tend to come from the top of the draft class.

i agree with you - and you can add girardi to that list.

it's funny and sad, but the flyers lack a vision as an organization. what type of team do they want to have? what's the plan? it seems like they are always chasing last year's cup winner: if a small, quick, talented team wins the cup, that's who they try to become. if, the following year, a team like the big bad bruins win, then they try to model themselves after them. they are incapable of building a team and developing players because they lack their OWN vision.

hiring laviolette who plays one style and favors a specific type of player, then hiring berube who plays another system and favors another type of player.....it's not good for player development.

in order to succeed, construct a team with a vision, the flyers would need to make every decision built around a fundamental core of beliefs. unfortunately, they have no idea what those are.

Maybe Jim Benning and few others are out there! Coach not a retread would be nice. Keep Mason and build from out there but will mean a couple of down years. Won't happen with Ed but that's ok at least our owner wants to win maybe too much! Right on team i would keep   no one except Read cause he's all around player

you would keep mason and read. read? really....

@pilldoc 

 

 

"It is time for this organization to change its philosophy and start letting the kids/rookies play. "

 

 This will never happen while Snider is alive. This idiot always thinks we are 2-3 players away from winning it all. It will always be the case. What it really does is not allow us to suck badly enough to get the true superstar d-man we have always needed. You have to be top 5 in the draft to get one of those, which means letting kids learn on the fly and not signing vets to outrageous contracts. It means letting things roll naturally, not putting square pegs in the round holes ie vet additions like Vinny and Striet. It means playing it tight to the vest and having a boatload of patience. Qualities the Flyers will never have while Snider is alive.

everybody not named simmonds should be available for the right price.

the real question is do you trust Gomer to get fair value or the right pieces in return?

i was not against trading JVR, for example, but i was dead set against acquiring schenn for him. and, now that i hear we could have had yandle instead of schenn.....yikes.

@caluso

 

i think you raise some really good points, too.  as jammer points out, schenn is coming up on a put-up-or-shut-up time in his career.  i guess my point is that he hasn't hit that yet, and his issues are ones that don't surprise me from a kid on the not-there-yet side of that moment.  two years from now, if he's still showing the weaknesses you rightfully point out, i start moving to the other side of the debate.  for the time being, though, i think he still has learning to do, and can still learn.

 

 and yes, this team is a mess right now.  not a calgary/edmonton/toronto mess, but not part of the upper mix, and i'm not sure how one goes about getting them back to that.  they are lacking in some profound areas, and being profound, they're really hard to nail down to specific solutions.

i agree with what jammer says, too. and,  i hope you guys are right. as i said, a big part of the future is tied to schenn and couturier so i hope they develop into the players we all want them to be.

as for the state of the team, i must say that i am perplexed. why is it that they don't show up, don't compete, for so many games, so many shifts?

i really don't understand it.

i know the team is flawed - heck, every team is flawed - but to not compete.......really inexcusable.

and, dare i say it, is it time to start worrying about mason? how crazy would it be if he went into the tank moments after landing a new deal?

meaning, he should be further down the chart?  i dunno.  the kid has talent.  that pass to voracek for the one timer today, the one where rask came all the way across for the big glove save, that was a hell of a pass.  to see voracek there and saucer it over and into the wheelhouse, that was a major league play.  he has hands, he has vision, he can skate.  he is a mediocre offensive producer right now, but the stuff is there for him to be a moderately big deal.  his skill set is what physical secondary scoring is made of.

 

i like your pointing out how he tends to go after pucks, stick checking unless he is planning on laying a guy out.  he doesn't seem to have a middle gear, doesn't know how to get a shoulder into someone with the intention of skating away with the puck...either they are both going to end up in a pile on the ice or he refuses to commit and just waves his stick.  that is where i give him slack for age, though.  that's the kind of thing he needs to learn, the kind of thing that can be and needs to be coached into him.  that's the kind of nuance that youth has trouble with and experience can teach.  it isn't a given that he will ever learn that, but at his age, i don't see why one would assume he won't.

 

 

 

i just have a tough time getting on board with that.  there were, what, 210 players selected in his draft class?  maybe there are 20 or so players around his age that are beyond his level of production or effectiveness...but if he's the 21st best player selected over the last 5 years, is that really mediocre?  even 41st best player selected over the last 5 years, out of 1050 players taken.  that still seems to me to be on the winning side of the equation.

 

precious or special, no, maybe not.  you still need second line talent on your team, and most second liners are not precious or special.  i feel like he is better than most 2nd line players right now, and once he grows into his game, fills in the gaps, he'll be a very strong 4th forward.  he isn't going to ever blow people's minds or be in the conversation for best anything in the league, but very very few players are.  teams aren't made up of the best in the league, they are made of very good players who fill their roles, with a sprinkling of top talent at the, well, the top.  if you abandon the secondary players because they aren't the best of the best, you end up with a top heavy team with a big ol' hole in the middle.

 

as for sarah baicker, i'm not sure why her speculation carries any more weight than mine or yours.  i think the flyers would be amazingly foolish to just walk away from brayden schenn.  if they need to trade him to fill a need, then ok, he is what he is and ultimately can be replaced, but i don't see why you'd replace him for the sake of replacing him.  he is filling his assigned role just fine, from my point of view.  

 

his brother, on the other hand......

 

edit:  honestly, the fact that sarah baicker thinks the flyers will walk away from an RFA who is scoring at .6p/g at age 22 tells me she doesn't really understand how this whole thing works.  that would be really dumb.  i mean, he's coming off an entry level deal, it'll take less than $900k to qualify him, probably less than $2mil to resign him.  why would they not do that?  what 50 point guy are you going to get for less than that?

by the way, your opinion means more to me than hers. i was just saying...

i was actually shocked you got my reference to schenn's happen of "swordfighting" for the puck instead of actually getting in their and battling.

i didn't see today's game but i am not disputing schenn's talent as much as his work ethic and hockey iq. having said that, the move he made the other day, when he put the puck behind his back on the rush, was sick.

also, you make great points and i actually agree with a lot of what you posted. i really hope that it all works out for schenn and the flyers. the team is so screwed up right now.

kane, yes.  tarasenko, yes, as of today, with two points this afternoon.  they were identical until today.

 

i don't think schenn would be a top 6 forward on every team in the league at this point.  on many, but not all.  i agree with you.  i disagree with your expectations, though.  you said, "he has been in the nhl for over 2 years now and is performing at a decent level, not a spectacular one."  the problem there is expecting him to be spectacular.  he isn't now, and likely never will be.  my guess is he ends up a 70-point forward in 2 or 3 years.  90 points isn't going to happen, but a 70 point forward who also really likes to throw checks, i'm a fan of that.  i don't know why you would think that worthless.

 

another thing to keep in mind:  there are 30 teams in the league.  that means there are 180 top 6 forwards in the league.  schenn is already well within that group.  90th in the league in scoring, if i remember correctly.

 

people need to understand there is value between the elite and the worthless.  just because a kid is not likely to be a future rocket richard winner doesn't mean that he will never have anything a team would want.  schenn is currently putting up decent numbers and on the balance contributing to the team.  he will get better over the next couple seasons.  that doesn't mean he should get a pass on his shortcomings now, they are there and he need to work on those things.  most players have issues of one kind or another, though.  

i think your post is terrific, honestly.  and, for the record, i don't expect schenn to be a superstar - just competitive. i hate the way he battles for the puck - all stick, no body - while his (former) linemates simmonds and hartnell wage war. also, for the record, i never said he was "worthless" just mediocre. and, no matter what you say, his stats bear that out. furthermore, i think schenn, like richards was, is miscast as s second liner. 

a lot of people on this board cut schenn slack because he is "only" 22. my argument is/was that he isn't precocious or special; in fact, he is mediocre when compared to other players his age. many people on this board think he is on the verge of greatness because he wears o & b, while i don't.

sarah baicker speculated that the flyers won't be re-signing schenn and i think she might be right. only time will tell.

well, you couldn't very well have included any of those players on the list, because stamkos is older than schenn, and schenn is outproducing each and every one of the others.

 

that's the thing, there is different point of view regarding a flyer like schenn versus  peers on other teams like kane or tarasenko.  kane has had even more questions about his work ethic and attitude than schenn, but you'd rather have kane.  tarasenko is being outproduced by schenn, but you'd rather tarasenko.  i'm not saying schenn is the better option than either of them, but objectively he is right there in the mix with them both.  i don't know enough about tarasenko to say a whole lot about him, but if kane were a flyer, he'd be run up the same exact flag pole schenn is currently stuck on.  takes shifts off, coasts around a lot, lazy penalties, selfish plays...and in the end, similar point scoring.

 

schenn is a third year player, producing at a .6 p/g pace (almost identical to kane's career .62).  that is a more than respectable figure, leaves him in some fairly exclusive company.  elite?  no, not really.  are there 20 players in the league doing the same?  maybe.  that doesn't mean that it isn't a strong showing, that it doesn't bode well for him as a core contributor in a couple years.  he is maturing, both physically and mentally/emotionally.  one day evander kane will grow up and will really commit himself to his team.  he's a safe bet over the long run.  i don't see why schenn isn't the same.

stamkos is 23. and both tarasenko and kane are outperforming schenn on a ppg basis. 

this whole thread took a turn when king knut stated that schenn would be a top 6 forward on every team. i responded that there are dozens of players schenn's age or younger who i would rather have. and, that hasn't changed. in fact, after researching the wealth of young talent in the nhl, schenn is even more mediocre by comparison.

again, the free ride that schenn is being given because he is 22 makes no sense to me. has he improved? a little. does his improvement or the rate of improvement excite me about his future? no! he has been in the nhl for over 2 years now and is performing at a decent level, not a spectacular one. he certainly isn't a top 6 forward on every team!

is schenn's play worthy of all the blind support he has received? i say, no, you say, yes. only time will tell...

true.  and if you use players 25 or younger, the number gets even higher.  problem is, schenn is 22.  so.

and, by the way, i didn't include evander kane, stamkos, tarasenko, hertl and monahan on that list- all guys i would take over schenn. 

my point is, the nhl is filled with young players (yes, dozens!) who are actually playing well - irrespective of their age. and while i hope schenn develops, he should be expected to produce AT HIS AGE.

anyway, i enjoy the banter and i hope you know that i respect your posts.

@mojo1917

 

you know, i get his frustration with the effort side of things, but his idea that age is completely irrelevant mystifies.  the kid is a work in progress, the fact that he isn't a complete package, utterly solid roster player at 22 only means that he has work to do.  he is better this season than last, and was better last than the one before that.  the trend is in the right direction.

 

i think he really thinks there are 30 or 40 20 yearolds in the league playing like 30 yearold vets, scoring at a point per game and always knowing exactly what they are supposed to do.

matt duchesne, j eberle, r nugent-hopkins, ryan johansen, g landeskog, jeff skinner, reilly smith, n kadri, b saad, jaden schwartz, ryan o'reilly, d stepan, taylor hall, mikkel boedker, n mackinnon, marcus johansson, tyler seguin, j tavares, eric karlsson, tyler johnson, chris kreider   are all 23 or younger and are outscoring schenn on a per game basis. that's 20, by my count.

i only mention the 20 players because it seems like everybody is using youth as an excuse for scehnn and i dont buy that. schenn lacks a consistent effort and effort should be given irrespective of age. 

also, full disclosure, i am aware that there is more to a player than the points he scores. however, schenn is lousy at faceoffs and is a mediocre defender.

I never once said he was a second line center on every team so not sure what you are talking about. But, you keep referring stats and he has the 4th best on the team...

you said, and i quote, that he would be a top 6 player on every team. he is this team's second line center. his stats show that he would be a third line center almost everywhere else.

as for being the fourth best here, he is mediocre on a team void of talent.

look, i want to be clear, i am all for developing young players.  but to continually cut players slack because they are "young" is dangerous - especially if those players lack effort. effort doesn't come with age. i was appalled when we traded Bob, for example. also, i have been simmonds biggest supporter because he busts his butt every shift.

schenn has been gifted his role here and, in my opinion, doesn't work hard enough to merit that.

Most that know me around here would say I am not the O&B kool aide type but whatever.

 

Schenn is still young and he has been one of the best forwards on the team.  I am not even a fan of BS but he is 4th on the team in points and is  a +4.   The 3 ahead of (jake, wayne and g) are all minus.   Oh yeah, and he is tied for the most GWG on the team as well (w /G).  I get that he goes MIA but a lot of young players do he same.

 

As for the skating issues w/ Cooter you are way over-exxagerating the case.  The kid is the best two way forward on the team who plays the PK.  His skating is a non issue.   You cant play the PK if you are a bad skater.   When has his skating been an issue? 

let's look at schenn's numbers in a different light: he is tied for 95th overall in the nhl. 

you still think he is a second line center on every team?

and, if you believe that schenn has been one of the best players on the team, we really have to agree to disagree. 

come on man....   Schenn has played well and you are nuts if you think he would not be a top 6 on other teams in the NHL.   Stop it w the Cooter skating BS.  When exactly have you see his skating be an issue?  

come on man, look at the numbers and take your o and b goggles off. schenn has been given every opportunity to succeed and his numbers are what they are: mediocre. i am not making his stats up and i am not blinded by my loyalty to the flyers. he is on pace for 49 points and yet you think he would be a first or second liner on every team. come on, man, wake up! with the exception of the devils, there isn't one other team in the east where schenn would be a top 6 guy. 

when have i seen coots' skating be an issue?  umm, every game. having said that, i love the way couturier plays the game. he cares. but let's be honest, his play this year has been wildly erratic and his reputation as a shutdown defender is taking a serious hit lately. just look at the numbers and put emotion aside: 23 points, minus 2. 

as i said, the future of this team is tied to these two guys and i hope they perform well. thus far, i have been disappointed

  Good Lord, the guy is 22 freaking years old!  Third year in the league and scoring at a 0.6 pts per game, that is not mediocre, that is respectable. All players develop at different speeds. Some rip it up to start, most gain momentum for the first 2-3 years before exploding.

 

 Player A

Year 1  GP 56  G7 A 13 PTS 20

Year 2  GP 76  G23  A 12  PTS 35

Year 3  GP 78 G 22  A 24  PTS 46

Year 4  GP 80 G45  A 33  PTS 78

 

 Player B

Year 1  GP 54  G 12  A6 PTS 18

Year 2  GP 47  G8  A 18  PTS 26

Year 3 averaged out to 82 games

 GP 82  G 22  A  26 PTS 48 PTS

 

 

 Player A = Reggie Leach

 Player B= Brayden Schenn

 

 Not saying Brayden will be a Reggie Leach, but ya gotta admit, the career trajectories are striking similar to this point. I have no problem believing Brayden breaks out BIG TIME next year.  Schenn has scored some big goals this year, game winners, game tying goals, OT goals, we have not seen the best of this kid, not even close.

do you think schenn plays hard? schenn is 22. at 22 there is no excuse for taking shifts off. if you don't play hard when you are new to the league, when will you?

also, there are dozens of players in this league who are younger than schenn yet are out - playing, outscoring him. if he's not ready for the big time at 22, then maybe he shouldn't be here.

also, do you think schenn has the offensive prowess of leach? right now, he is playing with simmonds (who never takes a shift off) and hartnell who create tons of space and opportunities for him. yet, most of the time, i am left wondering where schenn is.

i hope that couturier and schenn turn out to be superstars in this league. i really do. however, i have serious doubts about both players and if those doubts turn out to be true, then the flyers will be stuck in the mud for several more years.

time will tell.